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General/Other - Liu Kang Liu Kang Dragon's Fire & Flame Fist General Discussion

Harlequin969

Always press buttons
I've been playing a lot of Tempest Lao and I like his rushdown/pressure. I know that Kang's pressure is really good, his leading trait in this game, and I'm wondering how well of a transition it is between the two. I'm looking into trying out Flame Fist.
 

Wrath0594

Steam profile: 76561198102032134
I've been playing a lot of Tempest Lao and I like his rushdown/pressure. I know that Kang's pressure is really good, his leading trait in this game, and I'm wondering how well of a transition it is between the two. I'm looking into trying out Flame Fist.
Currently there's no real reason to use flame fist at all. The variation doesn't have the pressure you're talking about or any rushdown potential.
The buff serves it's purpose well enough, and is easy enough to activate after a combo ender, or the ex off f213, but what hurts is how many tools the variation loses. Windmill fist is straight inferior to bicycle kicks: it's isn't + enough to set up any frame traps on hit, its fully punishable on block, and you can't burn meter in the middle of it to make it safe either. You also lose the ability to cancel fly kick into bicycle. With those, and fireball cancels gone, you lose any way to setup pressure on block since all of his specials are unsafe.

As a result, this variation is strictly used for zoning- so you have to get as much mileage out of the fireball and parry as you can. That said, you'll still struggle to find opportunites to activate the buff, most of the time it'll take meter, and the only advantage the low fireball has is that he stays crouched slightly longer. The chip from the buff is also negligable simply because he has no blockstrings long enough to take advantage of it.

Strongly recommend Dragonfire. I don't see many similarities to Kung Lao though, so the transition will probably be awkward either way. Liu relies primarily on his walkspeed- using it to fireball zone and trip guard, then alternating into his pressure with fireball cancels, forcing his opponent to choose between blocking or reading a throw. Lao relies much more heavily on his range, reversals, and frame traps.
 
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Harlequin969

Always press buttons
Currently there's no real reason to use flame fist at all. The variation doesn't have the pressure you're talking about or any rushdown potential.
The buff serves it's purpose well enough, and is easy enough to activate after a combo ender, or the ex off f213, but what hurts is how many tools the variation loses. Windmill fist is straight inferior to bicycle kicks: it's isn't + enough to set up any frame traps on hit, its fully punishable on block, and you can't burn meter in the middle of it to make it safe either. You also lose the ability to cancel fly kick into bicycle. With those, and fireball cancels gone, you lose any way to setup pressure on block since all of his specials are unsafe.

As a result, this variation is strictly used for zoning- so you have to get as much mileage out of the fireball and parry as you can. That said, you'll still struggle to find opportunites to activate the buff, most of the time it'll take meter, and the only advantage the low fireball has is that he stays crouched slightly longer. The chip from the buff is also negligable simply because he has no blockstrings long enough to take advantage of it.

Strongly recommend Dragonfire. I don't see many similarities to Kung Lao though, so the transition will probably be awkward either way. Liu relies primarily on his walkspeed- using it to fireball zone and trip guard, then alternating into his pressure with fireball cancels, forcing his opponent to choose between blocking or reading a throw. Lao relies much more heavily on his range, reversals, and frame traps.
Yeah I was noticing that from the little bit of time I put into it. I like the concept of it, mainly because I like the aestic of characters that buff their damage in some form or the other. That and I suck at FRC so I'm kinda turned away from Dragon fire. The info is really good though, especially since I can't really find much talk of flame fist in the subforum. Hopefully it gets some changes or buffs to bring it up to snuff. Thanks :)
 

SEV

Noob
Didn't see it posted anywhere else, so Liu has a midscreen, wake up reversal, corpse hop set up after using exBK as a launcher and 22 as the ender:

Opener exBK NjP Run B34 22 Run over to Corpse Hop (35%)

Combo into 22 after B34 has a height requirement. You'll know you timed it right if the opponent is almost above Liu's feet when doing B34; you should be able to go directly into 22 without having to move forward at all. It's not a hard combo as it's timing is pretty fluid after a bit of practice.

If they don't delay their wake up, they get up just after you run over them to the other side. You can check any armored wake up with a B12 into a FBRC combo if you make the read, just in case if they accidentally option select another wake up that had reversed directional inputs. You can also slightly delay your run after the combo to prevent the cross up if you want.

You can only get the corpse hop from 22 after using exBK, for some reason the game doesn't allow it from meterless combos.

I'd post a video but the quality would be terrible so if someone else wants to post one or make a thread about it that's fine; I wasn't sure if it warranted it's own thread as the Liu forum already has a lot of threads already.
 
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AK Gookus

Slant-eyed Nightwing
Been a minute...but a glimmer of hope shines through...
  • pakostevens: windmill fist has some new functionality post Stanky Leg. keep an eye out!
 

Ralenzo

Noob
Yo Flame Fist is ridiculous right now. The dd+1 buff has gotten an unintended buff I think; It now has 15 total frames, less than MB version.
Almost all strings canceled into it are + on block and gives enough frame advantage to combo on hit.
I'm very reluctant to practice with him in training right now, because I know it's gonna get nerfed very soon. It's just braindead stupid right now.
 
Yo Flame Fist is ridiculous right now. The dd+1 buff has gotten an unintended buff I think; It now has 15 total frames, less than MB version.
Almost all strings canceled into it are + on block and gives enough frame advantage to combo on hit.
I'm very reluctant to practice with him in training right now, because I know it's gonna get nerfed very soon. It's just braindead stupid right now.
It's in line with his other variations and a number of other characters. I don't understand the braindead part. Seems perfectly balanced.
 

Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
It's in line with his other variations and a number of other characters. I don't understand the braindead part. Seems perfectly balanced.

Agree with this. If the EX version received the same special cancel buff, talk about OP! That would mean for burning 1 meter not only would the flame buff last longer but you could average 50% damage midscreen with less inputs than a kung Lao or Jax. I think it received the right amount of change while still being fair (the dd1 can be poked as there is a gap in between the string and special. F213 xx dd1 is the exception but F213 xx dd1 will only give you one rush down on block and nothing additional on hit)
 

Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
Wait how does he get 50% midscreen?
I'm saying if you could cancel into the EX version of SF like you can the regular version now you would be ripping off 50% midscreen combos...imagine something like this

F44 xx fbf4 xx dd1(ex) xx f44 xx fbf4, bf2 or bf1 or db2 etc

Unless damage scaling killed it but still being able to MB SF mid combo would be madness.

Regardless, loving the fact that you can do this without MB. You just see life literally CHEW away on hit it's insanely awesome.
 

Ralenzo

Noob
the dd1 can be poked as there is a gap in between the string and special. F213 xx dd1 is the exception but F213 xx dd1 will only give you one rush down on block and nothing additional on hit)
I haven't fully checked out all his strings, but he is definitely positive on block when canceling f+4,4 and b+1,2 into dd+1, so he shouldn't get poked out. On hit he gets a free combo as well. It's just braindead imo and was totally unnecessary.
Dragon Fire is able to gain something similar but he has to burn meter or fireball cancel, which requires execution and stamina.
I just can't see the current dd+1 buff staying. It wasn't even listed in the changelog so it must've been unintentional.
 
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Ralenzo

Noob
FF was already somewhat viable, he just got overshadowed by DF. The windmill punch buff makes it easier to deal a lot chip damage and is good enough for him to be equally as strong as DF imo. He'd still be able to convert it into combos by burning meter with dd+1 MB, just like DF would be able to convert it into damage by burning meter as well.
The current dd+1 buff is just really unnecessary imo.

I mean there used to be a time where we had to burn meter to stay safe, now we burn nothing to gain stronger fireballs, extra chip damage, pressure and combos...it just doesn't feel right.
 
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Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
I haven't fully checked out all his strings, but he is definitely positive on block when canceling f+4,4 and b+1,2 into dd+1, so he shouldn't get poked out. On hit he gets a free combo as well. It's just braindead imo and was totally unnecessary.
Dragon Fire is able to gain something similar but he has to burn meter or fireball cancel, which requires execution and stamina.
I just can't see the current dd+1 buff staying. It wasn't even listed in the changelog so it must've been unintentional.
Yet it still requires execution to perform dd1 and continue the next string whether on block or hit.

For example, let's say you do f44 xx dd1 xx f44. If you do not execute this perfectly, the combo will not continue which can result in block or poke. Same as not performing DF's fbc fast enough.

Remember, fbc was incredibly difficult at first until we practiced and got the timing down. While dd1 does allow a TINY bit more wiggle room than a fbc, it still requires practice and execution to use both practically and consistently. I think dd1 just seems almost "cheap" Bc a lot of us that have been playing as Liu practically mastered his fbc timing that dd1 is second nature.

Not arguing your point I just can't see it getting nerfed. If anything you might see DF get some attention next patch in terms of fixes and additions, as well as continued improvement of dualist and universal adjustments.
 

Gurimmjaw

Earthrealm
Really liking the flame fist buffs Liu Kang received. Really hoping it does not nerfed. I pray to the elder gods it stays lol.
 

Ayane

Noob
I'm saying if you could cancel into the EX version of SF like you can the regular version now you would be ripping off 50% midscreen combos...imagine something like this

F44 xx fbf4 xx dd1(ex) xx f44 xx fbf4, bf2 or bf1 or db2 etc

Unless damage scaling killed it but still being able to MB SF mid combo would be madness.

Regardless, loving the fact that you can do this without MB. You just see life literally CHEW away on hit it's insanely awesome.
Oh I didn't even think EX dd1 did anymore dmg than regular.
Confirmed EX dd1 doesn't increase dmg or chip. It increases the buffs duration by about 3 seconds. Which IMO is a bad thing.

I think what's important about FF is managing the buff so that you can cancel as much as possible. You may do longer pressure strings (like b34) just to waste more time to let the buff tick down, but of course, just like dash cancelling instead of run cancelling a fireball in DF; it has its risks and rewards.

Also there are still tons of gaps in pressure just like DF, and pressure isn't as ez to loop as DF. Lot's of points to get out.

Anyway I think it's cool and hope it stays. But what we think doesn't matter lol.
 

XBlades

To Achieve, You must Believe
Windmill punch to buff into f3 or b1 and windmill punch again to back fist... yooo the chip!!!

By far his newest rushdown options have increased in this stance... and EX windmill punch launches.. corner combos are already nuts.
 

Ralenzo

Noob
After having played over 20 games (vs Kano cybernetic) with the new Liu Kang I must admit that I might have overrated his buffs, especially the dd+1 one. Nonetheless, I've never won so many games as Kang before, he's definitely a lot stronger and I think he's top tier material now.
 

Wrubez

The Flow Instructor
Confirmed EX dd1 doesn't increase dmg or chip. It increases the buffs duration by about 3 seconds. Which IMO is a bad thing.

I think what's important about FF is managing the buff so that you can cancel as much as possible. You may do longer pressure strings (like b34) just to waste more time to let the buff tick down, but of course, just like dash cancelling instead of run cancelling a fireball in DF; it has its risks and rewards.

Also there are still tons of gaps in pressure just like DF, and pressure isn't as ez to loop as DF. Lot's of points to get out.

Anyway I think it's cool and hope it stays. But what we think doesn't matter lol.
Oh my mistake then....wow they should buff damage then Bc no one will need ex version otherwise lol especially to your point with timing the dd1 again after it runs out. Yo that would be ridiculous if someone just constantly times it perfectly. Be like Tyson circa 1988. 20 second KO's!
 

Ayane

Noob
Alright so after going into the lab and testing out some things. I think DF is still better than FF lol. The dmg into restands is nice from FF, probably the best thing about it tbh. Windmill into anything is punishable depending on the char. Unless you want to do EX db2, which can still be beat 100% by multi hit specials like Kano upball.

String>flame on>string is legit, but its basically being able to only have 1 run cancel. Meaning you can't quite build a bar doing string>flame on>string>windmill.

The zoning for FF is pretty nice though. Maybe the zoning is better than DF lol.

FF seems viable now but just not quite on DF level from what I know. I'm sure it can destroy slower characters so there's that.

What do y'all think? Am I missing anything?