Li Mei General Discussion

[Syzoth]

Perhaps we could see some gameplay from you both, Rifraf so we can perhaps offer advice and Panic so we can see a template of how a veteran plays the character.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Maybe I'm failing to get my point across. I don't want the character changed.

I mean you kinda do.

Maybe her up close game could be toned down a bit, and in return she could get more mid stage tools.

I’m not denying it's a powerful move and a useful tool to have, but like in real life each tool is useful for a specific task. For example, using a Philips screwdriver on a Pozidriv screw will get it done. But, you should be using a Posidriv screwdriver to begin with.

It’s useful as an overhead. I’m not advocating that it be used for everything, but it’s a strong overhead. You want more overhead options, and I’m responding, “Well, she already has a great overhead, you should use that more”. Your response is to then say, “well I don’t wanna spend bar and I want more options”. That’s a you issue. Not an issue with the character.

 

[rifraf]

That’s a you issue. Not an issue with the character.

Maybe, but maybe not. I'm standing my ground in wanting more tools. Time will tell.

 

[Syzoth]

Ketchup and Mustard put Li Mei in the bottom 5 in their 'too early to do a tier list but here we go anyway' tier list.

How do we feel about this?

I think she's solid - foundamentally powerful. But I think she's foundamentally powerful in a game where the standard seems to be towards the broken side of the spectrum when compared to previous titles.

 

[rifraf]

I think she's solid - foundamentally powerful. But I think she's foundamentally powerful in a game where the standard seems to be towards the broken side of the spectrum when compared to previous titles.

Yeah, very well said.

She feels mid tier to me, but I feel as the game gets figured out and people get better, her lack of tools/complexity will hurt her long term. In the other side of the spectrum, there are characters like Geras and Kenshi with an abundance of tools in their disposal but harder to play. These characters will only get better in time because of that.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Ketchup and Mustard put Li Mei in the bottom 5 in their 'too early to do a tier list but here we go anyway' tier list.

How do we feel about this?

I think she's solid - foundamentally powerful. But I think she's foundamentally powerful in a game where the standard seems to be towards the broken side of the spectrum when compared to previous titles.

Ehhh I don’t know enough about everyone else to be able to place her in a tier list.

I do know she’s really strong with solid tools, and no difficulty competing. When I lose it’s because I’ve been outplayed, not because the character is weak. I think bottom 5 is a stretch tbh.

Maybe, but maybe not. I'm standing my ground in wanting more tools. Time will tell.

Can I ask how you think having overheads in her strings will help her?

For example, if b21 finished overhead, how would this help her? People would just stand block it, there’s no mixup. Any low Kameo move would be fuzzy-guardable so won’t actually help against competent players. The changes you’re asking for just don’t make any sense. They won’t help her against any competent players

Which Kameo do you use with her?

If we were able to ask for changes (not that she needs any), I’d want the following in this order:

• remove gap in 124
• make 21, +0 on block
• flawless blocked db4(ex) maintains same frame data as non-flawless blocked db4(ex)
• decrease lantern cool-down timer mid combo
• make fatal blow 18-20 frame startup (to actually combo into it)

Not that she needs any of these, just that these would actually be more helpful to her game plan than adding another overhead splat to her toolkit.

Yeah, very well said.

She feels mid tier to me, but I feel as the game gets figured out and people get better, her lack of tools/complexity will hurt her long term. In the other side of the spectrum, there are characters like Geras and Kenshi with an abundance of tools in their disposal but harder to play. These characters will only get better in time because of that.

You keep talking about her having no tools; which tools specifically do you think she needs that she doesn’t have? How would these tools help her general game plan?

 

[Marlow]

@Pan1cMode basically did a better job of saying what I wanted to say.

The original complaint was lack of overheads, but she already has a great instant air overhead that can be made safe with meter and launches, which gives her a nice 50/50 combo option every single time she scores a knockdown or puts the opponent in enough hitstun.

Overhead specials costing a bar to be made safe is pretty standard, especially if the overhead launches. Building meter though is just part of general fighting game strategy, but especially in MK1 it's a core component. And Li Mei has a pretty good tool kit for building bar with some solid blockstrings and a decent projectile.

I have no idea about character strength/tier lists, but right now it seems like Li Mei has a complete kit that gives her a clear gameplan and objective.

 

[Mikemetroid]

That Li Mei normal has some funky properties because of her knee placement lol

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1708685714924224644

 

[Syzoth]

If we were able to ask for changes (not that she needs any), I’d want the following in this order:

• remove gap in 124
• make 21, +0 on block
• flawless blocked db4(ex) maintains same frame data as non-flawless blocked db4(ex)
• decrease lantern cool-down timer mid combo
• make fatal blow 18-20 frame startup (to actually combo into it)

Not that she needs any of these, just that these would actually be more helpful to her game plan than adding another overhead splat to her toolkit.

Not bad asks, I think I'd want B1 to be faster - it's already not hit confirmable and requires a resource to combo off of. OR perhaps less negative though it's only -3. I do feel it's hard to enforce plus frames pressure on people that excel at reading and ducking her highs. I don't want to poke with d1 and lose my turn.

Or as you said, reduced cooldown/recovery on lanterns. Though I understand why they were slowed down from Beta - I'd like them to be just a tad more safe in neutral but that's wish listing.

I recorded some matches yesterday and may post some footage of my gameplay today for advice/inspiration.

 

[Syzoth]

That Li Mei normal has some funky properties because of her knee placement lol

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1708685714924224644

We have T-Rex arms. Haven't felt this way since MkX Jacqui Briggs.

 

[rifraf]

Ehhh I don’t know enough about everyone else to be able to place her in a tier list.

I do know she’s really strong with solid tools, and no difficulty competing. When I lose it’s because I’ve been outplayed, not because the character is weak. I think bottom 5 is a stretch tbh.



Can I ask how you think having overheads in her strings will help her?

For example, if b21 finished overhead, how would this help her? People would just stand block it, there’s no mixup. Any low Kameo move would be fuzzy-guardable so won’t actually help against competent players. The changes you’re asking for just don’t make any sense. They won’t help her against any competent players

Which Kameo do you use with her?

If we were able to ask for changes (not that she needs any), I’d want the following in this order:

• remove gap in 124
• make 21, +0 on block
• flawless blocked db4(ex) maintains same frame data as non-flawless blocked db4(ex)
• decrease lantern cool-down timer mid combo
• make fatal blow 18-20 frame startup (to actually combo into it)

Not that she needs any of these, just that these would actually be more helpful to her game plan than adding another overhead splat to her toolkit.



You keep talking about her having no tools; which tools specifically do you think she needs that she doesn’t have? How would these tools help her general game plan?

The way I see it, more tools a character has=more freedom of expression for the player. It's more fun in having more ways to play the character. If you don't understand that, then it is what it is. Also, my game plan does not=your game plan even if we use the same character. Maybe what you meant to say is what is the optimal/most efficient-effective game plan for the character. Well, no one knows yet.

Seeing your suggestions, it's clear to me we have very different approaches in the way we play the game. You're looking at the character with a microscope, min/maxing what's already there talking about frames, while I'm looking at the character holistically from a macro which makes me see what the character is missing. Which, as I said before could be a string with an overhead or in general adding some complexity to her strings. I hope you understand why adding some complexity to her strings can be a good thing for the player.

I use Scorpion, Frost and KL.

 

[Marlow]

Are you saying you simply want more strings with overhead and lows baked in?

 

[rifraf]

Are you saying you simply want more strings with overhead and lows baked in?

That would be cool. Or, a move that's cancelable so it creates some mind games. I get it, her strings have +frames and although it's powerful, it's boring and it will get stale real fast.

This is a crazy game like MK9 so my perspective is keeping the craziness going, not limiting it. Besides, the mantra of this game is player freedom/creativity. Ed Boon said so himself.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Seeing your suggestions, it's clear to me we have very different approaches in the way we play the game. You're looking at the character with a microscope, min/maxing what's already there talking about frames, while I'm looking at the character holistically from a macro which makes me see what the character is missing.

“Wholisticaly”

What is she missing? Strings with lows and overheads? Literally how does this help her?

Any competitive player will just block normally. With Kameos the cancel window is always big enough that they can mostly just fuzzy block.

It honestly sounds like you don’t know what you’re talking about. “I can’t open people up with unreactable 50/50s, please give me a win button to make the game more fun”.

That would be cool. Or, a move that's cancelable so it creates some mind games. I get it, her strings have +frames and although it's powerful, it's boring and it will get stale real fast.

This is a crazy game like MK9 so my perspective is keeping the craziness going, not limiting it. Besides, the mantra of this game is player freedom/creativity. Ed Boon said so himself.

You want a move you can cancel? Use her f3.

If you find her boring, pick another character, but don’t try and change something that is perfectly fine as is.

 

[rifraf]

It honestly sounds like you don’t know what you’re talking about. “I can’t open people up with unreactable 50/50s, please give me a win button to make the game more fun”.

Wow. Honestly, attacking someone like that just because he has a different opinion than you is sad.
Do you know what you're talking about? No, you don't. You're just an entitled little guy thinking his opinion is more important that someone else's.

I'm going to stop responding to you from now on since you're being toxic. I'd advise you to be more open to other peoples opinions, even if you don't agree with them. You don't have to agree, but be respectful. And if you can't, you should work on it. Good luck.

 

[Pan1cMode]

Wow. Honestly, attacking someone like that just because he has a different opinion than you is sad.

I'm going to stop responding to you from now on since you're being toxic. I'd advise you to be more open to other peoples opinions, even if you don't agree with them. You don't have to agree, but be respectful. And if you can't, you should work on it. Good luck.

If you’re gonna have garbage takes, you can’t be surprised when people call you out on them.

You’re being passive-aggressive and holier-than-thou, when honestly you have no idea what you’re talking about. Your suggestion doesn’t address any of her actual issues.

Anyways, the ignore button is free.

 

[Syzoth]

Wow. Honestly, attacking someone like that just because he has a different opinion than you is sad. Good luck.

I was experimenting with Stryker last night and I'd recommend him. I knew and you likely know that he can add an overhead or low 'mixup' if you will. But what I didn't know was that those summons were plus on block. So you can continue your pressure on hit or on block and that's kind of fun. Seems like the exact thing you may enjoy.

 

[Pan1cMode]

I’ve been trying out other Kameos for matchups and I think Sub Zero is really good for certain matchups, eg. Shang and Kitanna.

You give up the ability to convert from bf4, db3, and aerial db4(ex), but your zoning/counter zoning is sooo much stronger when you don’t have to worry about anything they throw at you.

Plus, your damage is comparable to scorpion Kameo and your screen presence is better. You also get an invincible reversal/wakeup which is great for blowing up gaps.

I think scorpion is still my favourite Kameo to use with her, but I’m liking sub zero as an option.

Next I’ll be labbing/trying out Kung Lao. His low hat is a great complement to her zoning and create hard-to-blockables with her instant air db4. Haven’t found many exciting uses for teleport, but will look into it further.

 

[Juice2121]

I think she’s good the way she is. You can cover her gaps with kameos if you want to play a safer game, or use scorpion and play around your gaps. With loa cameo she can pretty much be plus all the time unless your opponent uses armour. If you think they going to press use loa spin and get a full combo punish. She does stupid damage even without a kameo. I use sub because I like to play a more defensive game, and when I do land a hit I get great damage.

I think that’s my favorite part about this game, you hate something about a character, there is always a kameo that has your back.

 

[Pan1cMode]

An important thing to note with her lanterns, which most people have figured out but which hasn’t been explicitly stated.

If Li Mei hits an opponent with a lantern that is just coming out of her hand, there is a 3-4 second cool down on any subsequent lanterns.

This is why you can have two lanterns in a combo, you just need to hit them with the lantern after it’s left her and.

If you hit 2 lanterns in a combo, the third lantern will cause massively increased gravity and end the combo.

Just thought it was important that this be explicitly stated

 

[KaiserWolf]

If you hit 2 lanterns in a combo, the third lantern will cause massively increased gravity and end the combo.

You can hit 3 and continue the combo if a kameo maintains the juggle for you

 

[rifraf]

The more I play, the more I feel her b2, b21 should do something instead of just being there. Like, why are they even there? Her b2 could be made confirmable, that would give her so much more options.

 

[Pan1cMode]

The more I play, the more I feel her b2, b21 should do something instead of just being there. Like, why are they even there? Her b2 could be made confirmable, that would give her so much more options.

I find b2 only useful after 214 to enforce plus frames. b21 is only useful because it makes them block when you go for b2~bf1(ex).

I wish she didn’t have so many gaps. I’m fine with gaps in her plus strings, but I wish 124, b21, 4312, and f44 didn’t have gaps.

Or she can keep the gaps but make 12, b2 and f4 jail into bf1.

 

[Evantabes]

http://imgur.com/wnUDX9r

lol wtf is this interaction? Low hat OTGs but she's still stuck in the hit animation of B21 and the opponent is out of blockstun of low hat. I counted -9 so it's punishable. Was trying to find some interesting stuff to do with low hat but never do this sequence I guess.

 

[rifraf]

http://imgur.com/wnUDX9r

lol wtf is this interaction? Low hat OTGs but she's still stuck in the hit animation of B21 and the opponent is out of blockstun of low hat. I counted -9 so it's punishable. Was trying to find some interesting stuff to do with low hat but never do this sequence I guess.

Wth is that? Good find btw, thanks for sharing. Probably some hitbox issue? Probably not a big deal, but funny.