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Guide - Kung Jin Kung Jin Living Guide Thread

TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
BC_Rayman said:
My two cents on this Kotal/Kung Jin execution debate discussion thing skip this if you don't care lol:

1. Kotal is not really that execution heavy, and that's okay. Let's just not get too ahead of ourselves in the comparison to Kung Jin. The only thing I can think of that took me longer than my first try to execute was the triple f2 combo, which I hope for your sake isn't your go to bnb as f2 is pretty slow on startup (good as an anti air though). Coincidentally, I don't think Kotal's as good as Kung Jin, whom I agree requires less technical skill. Which brings me to my next point.

2. Execution level does not imply a character is good or bad. MK9 Kenshi, Aquaman, Green Lantern, MK9 Kung Lao come to mind. Leaving me with this final note. A character that has more options is better, which typically coincides with execution and having the know how to use said options, but the two are not the same thing. Kung Jin has more options than Kotal, so even though Kotal's f2 combos are harder to land, Kung Jin is a better character in me and many other people's opinions.

3. Having a "good" character doesn't guarantee you'll win, and having one who is "bad" doesn't guarantee you'll lose (except for Jade :p). Still gotta know matchups, how to exploit every option against every character with yours, optimal bnb's and setups, good footsies, etc. That's how you see characters who are not perceived as good like Reptile making top 8 at EVO. That guy came prepared for the typical Summoner Quan, Thunder God Raiden, Tempest Lao, Outlaw Erron Black, you name it. Those people did not come prepared for Noxious Reptile, as hardly anyone was using him. I tier whore at least a bit in every game for the last four years and I still lose more often than I can win outside of my living room...to people who don't...Q_Q

4. Kung Jin is not being played as much anymore because he got nerfed, so a lot of players dropped him for Tempest Lao, whom I admit requires a higher amount of execution. But more importantly than that, he's got safer offense, higher damage and better mobility. He also isn't free to delayed wake up like Kung Jin can be when going for those mixups on knockdown. Kung Jin isn't bad though, he just isn't perceived top 5 anymore like he used to be. Which isn't a bad thing either.

In short, imo, execution is an inhibitor to victory that must be overcome, not a friendly helper. Reads, mixups, footsies/spacing, crazy frame traps that break armor, high damage and/or mobility are things you're going to want to win in this game. I prefer to respect people for winning, not for what character they use to do it. If I can't win when I think someone is laming me out, that's on me for not learning how to beat that.
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I agree with pretty much all the points you made. I wasn't trying to argue a direct comparison between the relative ease of Kung Jin v. Kotal. My point was only that you can go in practice mode and pretty easily learn the bnbs of most characters, but there is much more that is required to win actual matches (footsies, reads, spacing, etc.). Kung Jin has weaknesses against certain characters, so it is still challenging to win many matchups even if you have all his combos down pat. When you put a lot of work into improving in these areas, I just don't have a lot of patience for people blindly discrediting it because some of the character's Day 1 combos may not be the hardest to learn. As you mentioned, KJ was nerfed. For that and other reasons, I think that winning with him against good players should still merit respect.
 
GuerillaTactix

GuerillaTactix

#bufftakeda
Idk if it's my place to say or not but I feel like that nerf to kung jin's damage early in the game was premature AF... The character has easy combos sure but overall I'm not seeing much depth in the character as a whole.. Where's his unblockable/hard to blockable dirt?? Yeah he had 50/50's but a lot of character do.. IMO he's a pretty honest character compared to some of the others who have been skirting these nerfs each patch..

I'm a day 1 Takeda main and in the beginning of the game I feared kung jin above all others... Now, the only time I seem him it's some new player to the game who gets easily beaten.. Where are all the good kung jins? Did everyone drop off after the patch or something? (Keep in mind I don't go looking for amazing kung jins but you'd think as a Takeda main I wouldn't be bodying every kung jin I DO run into..) It's just weird.. Is the lack of decent Kung jin players due to the execution shaming that i see going on right now?

Also am I right in saying that the damage nerfs were premature? Honestly wondering.. I oddly get the feeling that if the damage nerfs didn't happen the character would still be top tier but no more dirty than our current top 10.. Just wondering.. What was his prepatch damage? 1 bar 42%?? Doesn't kung lao and ermac get 40% no meter or something.. No need to bash my lack of knowledge on the subject I just don't feel like reading 25 pages of threads to catch up to kung jins placement in the game.
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
GuerillaTactix said:
Idk if it's my place to say or not but I feel like that nerf to kung jin's damage early in the game was premature AF... The character has easy combos sure but overall I'm not seeing much depth in the character as a whole.. Where's his unblockable/hard to blockable dirt?? Yeah he had 50/50's but a lot of character do.. IMO he's a pretty honest character compared to some of the others who have been skirting these nerfs each patch..

I'm a day 1 Takeda main and in the beginning of the game I feared kung jin above all others... Now, the only time I seem him it's some new player to the game who gets easily beaten.. Where are all the good kung jins? Did everyone drop off after the patch or something? (Keep in mind I don't go looking for amazing kung jins but you'd think as a Takeda main I wouldn't be bodying every kung jin I DO run into..) It's just weird.. Is the lack of decent Kung jin players due to the execution shaming that i see going on right now?

Also am I right in saying that the damage nerfs were premature? Honestly wondering.. I oddly get the feeling that if the damage nerfs didn't happen the character would still be top tier but no more dirty than our current top 10.. Just wondering.. What was his prepatch damage? 1 bar 42%?? Doesn't kung lao and ermac get 40% no meter or something.. No need to bash my lack of knowledge on the subject I just don't feel like reading 25 pages of threads to catch up to kung jins placement in the game.
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I was fine with the patch, but you make a bunch of valid points re the overall level of dirt he has compared to other characters, as well as the fact that other characters have more meterless damage. I think he is just slightly above the middle of the pack at this point. I think the KJ Takeda matchup is pretty fun tho (given that we both have long range normals, etc.), so add me if you'd like to play - TackyHaddock8 on both PSN and Xbox live.
 
Parasurama

Parasurama

Dragon
I feel the main issue with the KJ nerfs were taking away his block advantaged moves, like the ex dive kick or the cartwheel overhead, as well increasing disadvantage with some normals. I do not think the damage nerf is that much of an issue. His 50/50, the overhead is slow, but that just requires spacing. I would say he is high mid tier now, compared to the rest. I agree with you he is honest as a character, and his NJP still kicks ass (much like Takeda), but it can be baited and punished.




GuerillaTactix said:
Idk if it's my place to say or not but I feel like that nerf to kung jin's damage early in the game was premature AF... The character has easy combos sure but overall I'm not seeing much depth in the character as a whole.. Where's his unblockable/hard to blockable dirt?? Yeah he had 50/50's but a lot of character do.. IMO he's a pretty honest character compared to some of the others who have been skirting these nerfs each patch..

I'm a day 1 Takeda main and in the beginning of the game I feared kung jin above all others... Now, the only time I seem him it's some new player to the game who gets easily beaten.. Where are all the good kung jins? Did everyone drop off after the patch or something? (Keep in mind I don't go looking for amazing kung jins but you'd think as a Takeda main I wouldn't be bodying every kung jin I DO run into..) It's just weird.. Is the lack of decent Kung jin players due to the execution shaming that i see going on right now?

Also am I right in saying that the damage nerfs were premature? Honestly wondering.. I oddly get the feeling that if the damage nerfs didn't
happen the character would still be top tier but no more dirty than our current top 10.. Just wondering.. What was his prepatch damage? 1 bar 42%?? Doesn't kung lao and ermac get 40% no meter or something.. No need to bash my lack of knowledge on the subject I just don't feel like reading 25 pages of threads to catch up to kung jins placement in the game.
Click to expand...
 
GuerillaTactix

GuerillaTactix

#bufftakeda
TackyHaddock said:
I was fine with the patch, but you make a bunch of valid points re the overall level of dirt he has compared to other characters, as well as the fact that other characters have more meterless damage. I think he is just slightly above the middle of the pack at this point. I think the KJ Takeda matchup is pretty fun tho (given that we both have long range normals, etc.), so add me if you'd like to play - TackyHaddock8 on both PSN and Xbox live.
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We can play tonight if you like? Like I said I haven't played a good kung jin in a good while so I might get bodies but I never run from a challenge. (My current sparring partner is a lui kang main now.. #I'mSaltyAF) lol
 
GuerillaTactix

GuerillaTactix

#bufftakeda
Parasurama said:
I feel the main issue with the KJ nerfs were taking away his block advantaged moves, like the ex dive kick or the cartwheel overhead, as well increasing disadvantage with some normals. I do not think the damage nerf is that much of an issue. His 50/50, the overhead is slow, but that just requires spacing. I would say he is high mid tier now, compared to the rest. I agree with you he is honest as a character, and his NJP still kicks ass (much like Takeda), but it can be baited and punished.
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See I feel like the nerfs to his frame data were more necessary than the damage nerf.. I felt as if he was too safe to get that much damage.. Make his oh option unsafe and now he's got a risk reward mind game going that makes the damage sweeter when he actually gets it. His d1 and NJP are too good for him to constantly be at advantage.. IDK though. I've already admitted not knowing much about the character.
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
GuerillaTactix said:
We can play tonight if you like? Like I said I haven't played a good kung jin in a good while so I might get bodies but I never run from a challenge. (My current sparring partner is a lui kang main now.. #I'mSaltyAF) lol
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That might work. For better or for worse I am a young corporate attorney so my damn hours are unpredictable, but MK is always more fun than law practice :p

Let me know your PSN/Xbone gamertags and we'll see what happens.
 
Parasurama

Parasurama

Dragon
GuerillaTactix said:
See I feel like the nerfs to his frame data were more necessary than the damage nerf.. I felt as if he was too safe to get that much damage.. Make his oh option unsafe and now he's got a risk reward mind game going that makes the damage sweeter when he actually gets it. His d1 and NJP are too good for him to constantly be at advantage.. IDK though. I've already admitted not knowing much about the character.
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Yes, perhaps it was necessary, although I am biased. Either way, he is not at the top any more but he can still compete, so that is fine. That encourages more reads and strategy.
 
FinalBoss_FGC

FinalBoss_FGC

Day -4MONTHS Dual Jin main
Okay guys, Sorry for the long delay but I did plenty of updating. The OP now has an variation overview of Bojutsu and Shaolin as these are the most practical in the meta thus far. Updated damage for Bojutsu combos, as well.

Hope you guys enjoy!
 
Kombat Chef

Kombat Chef

Apprentice
Thats what i thought. I have been having trouble with characters that have good advancing strings like tremor kotal erron black and kl.
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
Kombat Chef said:
Thats what i thought. I have been having trouble with characters that have good advancing strings like tremor kotal erron black and kl.
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Yeah Kotal has excellent tools against Kung Jin. In my opinion, he is best equipped of any character to punish a blocked NJP.
 
FinalBoss_FGC

FinalBoss_FGC

Day -4MONTHS Dual Jin main
Kombat Chef said:
Yea and i use the upkick alot for space control but those strings punish it every time
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ShaoJin beats Kotal full screen because his projectiles are so slow and hard reading jump ins don't really get punished because if they try to throw disc at the same time, it takes so long that they can't block it.

Once he gets in, it does get hard...but just learn the proper time to mb lunge kick
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
Kinetic CoRzz said:
ShaoJin beats Kotal full screen because his projectiles are so slow and hard reading jump ins don't really get punished because if they try to throw disc at the same time, it takes so long that they can't block it.

Once he gets in, it does get hard...but just learn the proper time to mb lunge kick
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I use lungekick too much, its stupidly unsafe, I need to get in the habit of using ex upkick more instead when cornered.
 
TackyHaddock

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
Kombat Chef said:
You play on xbl? if so add me GCBone1200 id like to play some other shaolin mains to see some different styles
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If you were asking me, yes I play the game on both consoles, but I hardly ever play on xbone because the online experience is so much worse than it is on Ps4
 
HuttonMD

HuttonMD

ADM Riddles
TackyHaddock said:
I use lungekick too much, its stupidly unsafe, I need to get in the habit of using ex upkick more instead when cornered.
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I use ex upkick a lot to get out of corner its def a nice get outta jail card. But do you or I guess anyone really know what the frames on upkick are? I know the frame data says -7 so say I a block string into upkick am I just -7?

Is it more safe just because ppl respect it due to the fear of the drop?
 
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