Match-Up Discussion - Kotal Kahn Kotal v Tremor at least 7-3?

[GAV]

Ok I see, you're saying use the threat of the lava interrupting combos. That could definitely mess with things for kotal. Making him do less than optimal things like f12.

I think its key to Tremor's game, but its especially key in the matchup against SG.

 

[1man3letters]

@1man3letters any thoughts on this MU?

dont get to play the mu that much but i prefer crystalline against him when i do thats for sure, flex up and its party time.

 

[NYCj360]

I'm in CT. Just took a trip to NY. I'm on psn and pc if you want to try online. . .

sure ill add you

 

[Doombawkz]

You lost me with explaining how the parry is used and the fact kotal has to guess. Why does kotal have to guess if you can easily tell which move is being used?

I think Kotal might be fine with spending bar, at least in sun god since he can just make meter.

Because lets say you decide "hmm, I'm going to parry this projectile" and then do so. When the next rock comes, you will likely also parry it. Now given all 6 rocks have different speeds after leaving his hand, how will you know when you use your parry? Answer would simply be to see where the rock is and time your parry to it, or just block.

Now you have the issue that not every rock will be the same rock or the same timing, and there is a second option in his ground shake that prevents blocking or parrying from being an absolute answer. To avoid this ground shake, you'd have to jump, but what happens when you can't jump because of rocks on the screen? How will you know when to jump, or if to jump, when you're also devoting your mental time to figuring out when to parry or if you should be blocking that first rock.

To quote the old Bane days "Knowing what you need to do, and actually being able to do it, are two different things." Its easy to say "its obvious when Bane will do delayed armor/DP/Command Grab, just punish it", but that line of logic doesn't function outside of a vacuum, at least not consistently. If you play a good Tremor, one that actually knows how to zone decently well, you will find yourself having to guess. Its something that no amount of MU knowledge can prepare you for. I'm not saying one side or the other wins, however to assume that you don't have to guess against a character who can delay or cancel 3 different projectiles which have different speeds and trajectories, and then has another 3 projectiles all of which have different timings and properties, and each of those changes with each variation... Just doesn't make logical sense to me.

The problem is making meter to do 4.31% as chip (or like 15% on hit) isn't fast or efficent enough when Tremor is slapping your block for 2.54% with each rock, slapping your shins for 8% every unblockable, and so on.

That being said, as I've said before I am not a Kotal player (not much of a tremor for that matter). I play Ferra/Torr and Shinnok. I contributed what few cents I had, but I'm far from what could be considered a reliable source of high-level opinion.

 

[cambros22]

@buyacushun

Later today around 3 is good.
Work has taken alot of my time. Im hoping in a few months i can get back into competing

 

[buyacushun]

@buyacushun

Later today around 3 is good.
Work has taken alot of my time. Im hoping in a few months i can get back into competing

I can play later tonight. I might be going out though. If I'm not on steam around 8:30 I won't be on for the day. sorry.

Because lets say you decide "hmm, I'm going to parry this projectile" and then do so. When the next rock comes, you will likely also parry it. Now given all 6 rocks have different speeds after leaving his hand, how will you know when you use your parry? Answer would simply be to see where the rock is and time your parry to it, or just block.

Now you have the issue that not every rock will be the same rock or the same timing, and there is a second option in his ground shake that prevents blocking or parrying from being an absolute answer. To avoid this ground shake, you'd have to jump, but what happens when you can't jump because of rocks on the screen? How will you know when to jump, or if to jump, when you're also devoting your mental time to figuring out when to parry or if you should be blocking that first rock.

To quote the old Bane days "Knowing what you need to do, and actually being able to do it, are two different things." Its easy to say "its obvious when Bane will do delayed armor/DP/Command Grab, just punish it", but that line of logic doesn't function outside of a vacuum, at least not consistently. If you play a good Tremor, one that actually knows how to zone decently well, you will find yourself having to guess. Its something that no amount of MU knowledge can prepare you for. I'm not saying one side or the other wins, however to assume that you don't have to guess against a character who can delay or cancel 3 different projectiles which have different speeds and trajectories, and then has another 3 projectiles all of which have different timings and properties, and each of those changes with each variation... Just doesn't make logical sense to me.

The problem is making meter to do 4.31% as chip (or like 15% on hit) isn't fast or efficent enough when Tremor is slapping your block for 2.54% with each rock, slapping your shins for 8% every unblockable, and so on.

That being said, as I've said before I am not a Kotal player (not much of a tremor for that matter). I play Ferra/Torr and Shinnok. I contributed what few cents I had, but I'm far from what could be considered a reliable source of high-level opinion.

You can easily tell which move is being used. The only time you can't be sure of something during startup is Metallic db1 since that has 3 different directions. Up and Neutral are both slow enough to recognize what's going on with ample time to time a parry. I will say the low option is fast enough to catch you off guard though. There is no guess work needed when all the specials are slow and have distinct animations.

How would Tremor do a special move and get a ground shake off? Metallic's db1 from full screen?

Sun ray is going to make Tremor move which will put quite a pause on him throwing projectiles. Or Kotal could put it on himself.

The only tricky part I'm seeing is Metallic DB1 and delaying it and cancelling. And that would only be a real issue if Kotal needed to get in and recover a life lead.

 

[Doombawkz]

I can play later tonight. I might be going out though. If I'm not on steam around 8:30 I won't be on for the day. sorry.


You can easily tell which move is being used. The only time you can't be sure of something during startup is Metallic db1 since that has 3 different directions. Up and Neutral are both slow enough to recognize what's going on with ample time to time a parry. I will say the low option is fast enough to catch you off guard though. There is no guess work needed when all the specials are slow and have distinct animations.

How would Tremor do a special move and get a ground shake off? Metallic's db1 from full screen?

Sun ray is going to make Tremor move which will put quite a pause on him throwing projectiles. Or Kotal could put it on himself.

The only tricky part I'm seeing is Metallic DB1 and delaying it and cancelling. And that would only be a real issue if Kotal needed to get in and recover a life lead.

You double posted by accident.

Anyways as I said, I don't play them so I wouldn't know. I gave my input, but I'd recommend asking the actual players. I'm pretty sure if zoning were that easy to get through, no one would be held up by it.
That is not the case, however. People still get zoned with better tools to get around it, I just assume the trend would carry over to Kotal.

But maybe you're Sonicfox incarnate and can simply react 100% of the time to every single projectile during the flow of a match. For you, maybe Tremor zoning is nonexistant, however I can't outright assume you're playing the best Tremors so I'll leave that up to your own experiences and judgements.

(By the by, MB d.b.1.u into earth shake is a true blockstring, so there's that)

 

[cambros22]

I can play later tonight. I might be going out though. If I'm not on steam around 8:30 I won't be on for the day. sorry.

Ill be on till after 12.

 

[cambros22]

DAmn i never get this quote stuff right on my phone lol

 

[Marinjuana]

Tremor can fake the up rock(aim it right) and then punish your whiffed parry. Do this enough times and you'll probably stop parrying on up rock. I didn't really test the timing but I seriously doubt there's enough time to react and not do the parry.

Tremor can use Aftershocks ground pound on several points in his jump and double hit on EX, making blocking the logical choice for Kotal. If you parry there you are liable to get hit afterwards.

He can use more ground pounds and EX ground pounds forcing you to make at times tight jumps.

And that's assuming you are consistently reading and executing on all the more vanilla stuff.

And I know were talking a hypothetical full screen battle here, but if I'm playing Kotal Khan I'm not zoning all day, once I get a knockdown or a favorable read I'm running in to start mixups and combos. This goes the other way too of course, but Kotal has to run through a gauntlet of rocks and he can't parry while moving.

There's a lot of nuanced things he can do to make his zoning more difficult and it's certainly not as easy to combat as you are making it out to be.

But all in all, Tremor doesn't need to dominant the full screen, he just needs to open you up and let his wakeup destroying offense pull the win out. (And against War God he'll will be able to zone hard without worries of parrying.)

And of course if he truly can't do shit in the zoning game in the MU Tremor can always go Crystal, which some may do from the start.

 

[buyacushun]

Tremor can fake the up rock(aim it right) and then punish your whiffed parry. Do this enough times and you'll probably stop parrying on up rock. I didn't really test the timing but I seriously doubt there's enough time to react and not do the parry.

Tremor can use Aftershocks ground pound on several points in his jump and double hit on EX, making blocking the logical choice for Kotal. If you parry there you are liable to get hit afterwards.

He can use more ground pounds and EX ground pounds forcing you to make at times tight jumps.

And that's assuming you are consistently reading and executing on all the more vanilla stuff.

And I know were talking a hypothetical full screen battle here, but if I'm playing Kotal Khan I'm not zoning all day, once I get a knockdown or a favorable read I'm running in to start mixups and combos. This goes the other way too of course, but Kotal has to run through a gauntlet of rocks and he can't parry while moving.

There's a lot of nuanced things he can do to make his zoning more difficult and it's certainly not as easy to combat as you are making it out to be.

But all in all, Tremor doesn't need to dominant the full screen, he just needs to open you up and let his wakeup destroying offense pull the win out. (And against War God he'll will be able to zone hard without worries of parrying.)

And of course if he truly can't do shit in the zoning game in the MU Tremor can always go Crystal, which some may do from the start.

I didn't get to play against crystal Tremor but I figure it would make more even and make Kotal predictable.

Part of this seems the distance we're talking about isn't full screen. For that I'd say as Kotal, I'd worry more about hitting with f1, d4, and if I'm sun god then tick throws too instead parrying. And I don't think I'd zone the whole match. But the way I see it, If i even got a small life lead and we ended up away from each other I could make him come to me which puts him at a disadvantage.

But from full screen why would Aftershock air ground quake cause some tight jumps?

What are the nuanced things Tremor could do? That's the type of stuff I need to properly think about this!!!

Are you on PSN or PC?

 

[Marinjuana]

Playing this matchup 2 days ago made me lean towards switching to 5/5 for the matchup, Kotal's run in is so good especially with the plus frames from sword or pizza. Brainstorming the parry scenario as well made me lean that way. Need to get a good Blood/Sun God though to test the zoning against, haven't encountered one with a really strong parry game. I'd like to see a really good Blood vs a really good Tremor. He has to tools to get in, perhaps even the tools to keep out, but I want to see how he'd handle Tremor's offense without a solid wakeup. I also want to try out the better Lava up rock against his forward moving strings.

Crystal can definitely handle him better up close then his other variations.

The EX ground pound(not from the air) is kind of annoying to dodge, have to be kind of on the money with the jump to avoid it entirely.

Idk, kind of just didn't feel like listing some of the random stuff he can do when I said that. Like certain projectiles properties being different on EX, how he can cancel DB1(which technically can be used to zone a bit in any variation but I mean Metallic's projectile really), how he can create and break patterns like faking going for a air ground pound. Nothing to write home about, but little things that could mix up the predictability.

I'm on Xbox unfortunately, doesn't seem to have a high pop.