Match-Up Discussion - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn Match-Up Discussion

[potatobrain]

Kotal Kahn [WG] vs Sub Zero [GM]

After some testing here is what I have found to stuff Sub's wake up options...

This is really good stuff! Thanks man. And thanks to everyone else who's responding, I'm reading all comments but not posting so as not to spam the thread too much

 

[Mr $tealYoGirl]

Gotta agree with everyone else that war God is best for GM sub zero. However, blood God seems to be somewhat ok too because he can parry the often used SZ slide wake up or the physical attack that often follows the ice clone at close range

He has the parry in Sun God as well and a command throw to add ppressure.

 

[Qwark28]

These are major gimmicks and not exclusive to blood god. You're willing to get punished for 50%+ if he goes for a shatter mixup and you're pressing buttons in situations where sub wants you to.

You shouldn't pick anything other than war god in this matchup. It's lifelead based, you easily anti air jumps, clip movement, mix up, whiff punish and punish unsafe clone cancels with EX OSS.

 

[Mr $tealYoGirl]

This is really good stuff! Thanks man. And thanks to everyone else who's responding, I'm reading all comments but not posting so as not to spam the thread too much

No problem! Its def a tough matchup for shure. Kinda feels like Kotal is Pacquiao chasing Sub Mayweather around but it is not impossible. That GF with Mr Aquaman vs Tom Brady would be the best resource on how to study the matchup. Also knowing the length of time the clone stays on screen is super useful.
Go to the Lab and practice recognizing strings and Ice Clone setups and testing out your options against them. Remember that when u apply Kotals Sweep with the Sword a few times it opens up opportunities for you to continue to apply pressure and start your mix up game especially if you have meter.

 

[ShaolinGunFu]

yea I just went through every possible option and although they are unreliable its the only thing that even made contact, its an unplayable matchup.

 

[Qwark28]

Kenshi vs Kotal is dumb.

 

[Hassun]

Kenshi vs Kotal is dumb.

Dumb good or dumb bad? Haven't faced any post patch Kenshis myself but I am expecting quite a struggle. Also which variantion(s)?

 

[Qwark28]

Dumb good or dumb bad? Haven't faced any post patch Kenshis myself but I am expecting quite a struggle. Also which variantion(s)?

http://testyourmight.com/members/pig-of-the-hut.86/#profile-post-186917

Totally anti-kotal character. It would be nice if you could punish his 50-50s but no such luck, he can just throw out shit that you can't punish.

 

[Mr $tealYoGirl]

Blood God would seem the most viable out of the 3 against this matchup since you will be waiting most of the time to get those hits in.Totem Buffs being safe and DF1 as well should help a little bit.
Need more patience than ever against Kenshi though.

 

[Qwark28]

Blood God would seem the most viable out of the 3 against this matchup since you will be waiting most of the time to get those hits in.Totem Buffs being safe and DF1 as well should help a little bit.
Need more patience than ever against Kenshi though.

Sun god does best out of all variations, blood god has 0 offense and armour. There are some mixups that leave kenshi -10 and you 100% need a command throw to threaten after.

 

[Hassun]

http://testyourmight.com/members/pig-of-the-hut.86/#profile-post-186917

Totally anti-kotal character. It would be nice if you could punish his 50-50s but no such luck, he can just throw out shit that you can't punish.

I feared as much. How well can Kenshi escape once you get in on him?

 

[LeeVanDam]

http://testyourmight.com/members/pig-of-the-hut.86/#profile-post-186917

Totally anti-kotal character. It would be nice if you could punish his 50-50s but no such luck, he can just throw out shit that you can't punish.

This is partly true. It's a very uphill battle, but there are a few key choke points that give Kotal Kahn a chance.

First off, this match up is completely about how well the Kotal Kahn player pays attention. I played my buddy who just wanted to show me how braindead easy balanced Kenshi is to win with. Out of 10 matches I may have won 3, but the later matches are closer because of what I learned. Here are the key things you need to know:

1. You're either going to want to be full screen or close range because then you don't have to deal with Tele-Push at all. This is great because Tele-Flurry is high, so you can neutral duck it. This is the most annoying special because it's only -9 on block, and at full screen if you block it Kenshi has more than enough time to throw something else out without you being able to move very much. I would recommend blocking it some to build meter for you because you can easily mitigate the damage by throwing up Sun Ray/God Ray then neutral ducking in order to heal without taking chip damage.

Once you start neutral ducking Tele-Flurry, his only option at full screen for you is Telekinetic Strike (overhead slash from the top of the screen). The start up is slow enough that unless he throws the close version out to protect himself (which means it won't hit you at all), you can RUN full screen under the telekinetic slash and at least get a 1,1,4 bread and butter before he recovers. If you don't trust yourself to run all the way, you can at least gain ground with f+1,2.


2. He's more than likely going to have enough time inbetween your reads to build up meter for a breaker, so you're going to have to either make two reads to truly get some damage or stay on him if he doesn't breaker. The extra damage from the Sun God Choke buff helped me out a lot, but I imagine War God and Blood God have their own tricks for squeezing out damage inbetween combos.

3. If you get in close on wake up, his only option for armor is still EX Rising Karma. If you block it, you get to kill him.

Here's a video of my first to 10. Yep, I get murdered in some of the matches... but there are rounds and matches where you can see what I'm talking about here. I don't think it's all bad for us simply because we can out heal the chip damage. I'm really grateful for that.

Here is the link, the Kenshi matches start 56 minutes in.

 

[Qwark28]

This is partly true. It's a very uphill battle, but there are a few key choke points that give Kotal Kahn a chance.

First off, this match up is completely about how well the Kotal Kahn player pays attention. I played my buddy who just wanted to show me how braindead easy balanced Kenshi is to win with. Out of 10 matches I may have won 3, but the later matches are closer because of what I learned. Here are the key things you need to know:

1. You're either going to want to be full screen or close range because then you don't have to deal with Tele-Push at all. This is great because Tele-Flurry is high, so you can neutral duck it. This is the most annoying special because it's only -9 on block, and at full screen if you block it Kenshi has more than enough time to throw something else out without you being able to move very much. I would recommend blocking it some to build meter for you because you can easily mitigate the damage by throwing up Sun Ray/God Ray then neutral ducking in order to heal without taking chip damage.

Once you start neutral ducking Tele-Flurry, his only option at full screen for you is Telekinetic Strike (overhead slash from the top of the screen). The start up is slow enough that unless he throws the close version out to protect himself (which means it won't hit you at all), you can RUN full screen under the telekinetic slash and at least get a 1,1,4 bread and butter before he recovers. If you don't trust yourself to run all the way, you can at least gain ground with f+1,2.


2. He's more than likely going to have enough time inbetween your reads to build up meter for a breaker, so you're going to have to either make two reads to truly get some damage or stay on him if he doesn't breaker. The extra damage from the Sun God Choke buff helped me out a lot, but I imagine War God and Blood God have their own tricks for squeezing out damage inbetween combos.

3. If you get in close on wake up, his only option for armor is still EX Rising Karma. If you block it, you get to kill him.

Here's a video of my first to 10. Yep, I get murdered in some of the matches... but there are rounds and matches where you can see what I'm talking about here. I don't think it's all bad for us simply because we can out heal the chip damage. I'm really grateful for that.

Here is the link, the Kenshi matches start 56 minutes in.

The set is online so there are some things that need to be corrected.

You can't get a sun ray out in time if you crouch a teleflurry, he can punish it on reaction with another one and you get 6 ticks of damage if you put it on top of him. There's no free healing to be had and the problem is not his zoning. Kenshi has an anticrossup, anti air, full combo on hit standing reset reversal and 50-50s which are 100% safe against Kotal because he's only -10 when our fastest punisher is 10f + 1 for unblocking. He can hitconfirm his 50-50s into 40% combos and keep you out, that's the real problem, his zoning is decent but bypassable.

Overhead slash is not recommended, it's barely any chip and too -.

He also has ex tele flurry which is armoured as well, he uses it against crossups. When it comes to opening him up, war god is all holes and gimmicks with mediocre damage, blood god can't open him up without a grab while sun god has fast tick throws which is most situations are guaranteed because they're either too fast or too far fetched to jump/armour them. A 19% unbreakable unblockable is amazing. Here are a few matches between me and Metzos from a tournament yesterday + casuals.

http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/666868758 @ 43:04

I'll post the casuals in a sec.

 

[LeeVanDam]

The set is online so there are some things that need to be corrected.

You can't get a sun ray out in time if you crouch a teleflurry, he can punish it on reaction with another one and you get 6 ticks of damage if you put it on top of him. There's no free healing to be had and the problem is not his zoning. Kenshi has an anticrossup, anti air, full combo on hit standing reset reversal and 50-50s which are 100% safe against Kotal because he's only -10 when our fastest punisher is 10f + 1 for unblocking. He can hitconfirm his 50-50s into 40% combos and keep you out, that's the real problem, his zoning is decent but bypassable.

Overhead slash is not recommended, it's barely any chip and too -.

He also has ex tele flurry which is armoured as well, he uses it against crossups. When it comes to opening him up, war god is all holes and gimmicks with mediocre damage, blood god can't open him up without a grab while sun god has fast tick throws which is most situations are guaranteed because they're either too fast or too far fetched to jump/armour them. A 19% unbreakable unblockable is amazing. Here are a few matches between me and Metzos from a tournament yesterday + casuals.

http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/666868758 @ 43:04

I'll post the casuals in a sec.

Thanks for the update. So what would be your suggestions? I agree that the Sun God Choke's been invaluable for me in this match up too. 19% adds up quick.

 

[Mr $tealYoGirl]

The set is online so there are some things that need to be corrected.

You can't get a sun ray out in time if you crouch a teleflurry, he can punish it on reaction with another one and you get 6 ticks of damage if you put it on top of him. There's no free healing to be had and the problem is not his zoning. Kenshi has an anticrossup, anti air, full combo on hit standing reset reversal and 50-50s which are 100% safe against Kotal because he's only -10 when our fastest punisher is 10f + 1 for unblocking. He can hitconfirm his 50-50s into 40% combos and keep you out, that's the real problem, his zoning is decent but bypassable.

Overhead slash is not recommended, it's barely any chip and too -.

He also has ex tele flurry which is armoured as well, he uses it against crossups. When it comes to opening him up, war god is all holes and gimmicks with mediocre damage, blood god can't open him up without a grab while sun god has fast tick throws which is most situations are guaranteed because they're either too fast or too far fetched to jump/armour them. A 19% unbreakable unblockable is amazing. Here are a few matches between me and Metzos from a tournament yesterday + casuals.

http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/666868758 @ 43:04

I'll post the casuals in a sec.

What are the 50/50s to watch out for from kenshi?

 

[Qwark28]

What are the 50/50s to watch out for from kenshi?

He has a low and an overhead, both too fast to react to and he can cancel them into ex triple sword flip which is only -1o for full combo or the regular one for a hard knockdown. His armour is also vastly superior with a full combo on hit so he just waits for you to do something punishable and screws you over for it.

 

[Qwark28]

Even though the player is admittedly not the best, here's an idea of how I play the SZ matchup as war god. Ignore the Scorpion player's matches, he was still learning Kotal's frames and mixups and generally screwing around with different variations.

http://www.twitch.tv/zaelock/b/666816560

In the SZ matches, I took a few games to find out his tendencies and get used to war god's special inputs since I use him only for 2-3 matchups, you can see me blowing up everything in the actual tournament matches I posted above, clone throw, tons of jumps, unsafe clone cancels, predictable run in patterns etc. What I wasn't punishing is B33D3 which is -14.

Further on are matches with @Metzos using Kenjutsu Kenshi. You can see how close the games end up even though he's not punishing gaps in strings or anti airing often.

 

[Metzos]

Yeah i m still learning Ken Kenshi, but i really believe at the highest lvl that MU is a total nightmare for KH.

 

[Genei Jin]

Good god man, Cassie Cage is a struggle.

imo, war god kotal kahn does okay vs her, although she has a slight advantage. i would imagine all his other variations loses badly to her

this battle is all footsies until someone gets knocked down/cornered/vortexed.

walk speed, both characters are similar (fast as fuck). kotal walks forward faster than he does backwards. cassie is about the same both ways.

the main attack to watch out for with cassie is her back+1. combined with her walk speed and the reach it gives, it can punish your whiffs easily.

of course kotal also has his back+1. it doesnt reach as far and it whiffs at times if she crouch block it but it comes out faster than hers.

Her whiffed back+1(2) can be easily punished by your back+1 into combo of choice.

cassie wants to be right outside of her back+1 range since she can easily walk in and out making you whiff and punishing you heavily. this range, she can beckon you with neutral jump 1.

what i like to do is to keep her honest with sword shake or ex sword toss from that range. i might even go for the sun light if i feel my opponent is playing super defensive.

once shes inside your back+1 reach, i feel kotal kahn has the advantage. any blocked chain leads to a mix up (low, overhead, unblockable). you can keep her jumps honest with the saw blade.

anything closer, kotal kahn has faster normals (d1, d2, d4), but cassie has better combo starters.

for the knockdown game, this is where cassie shits over everyone. hollywood version, she has the nut punch restand vortex. spec ops, she can set up a meaty missile into low or overhead near unblockable. remember that ex missile hits overhead while regular missile hits low. you can try to avoid the missiles by delay wake up, wake up ex sword specials or backdash but odds are not in your favor. her d/f1 (low gunshot) chain is fast enough to chew through your armored attacks.

when you knock her down, her wake up attacks are ex up kick and ex cartwheel. ex cartwheel is hard to punish, leads to a full combo but has only a few armor. ex up kick gives her a free combo when only the second hit connects but its easily punishable on block.

 

[Immortal]

Kenjutsu Kenshi at high level (obviously offline) destroys Kotal in any variation. Metzos simply made a lot of mistakes but he's just learning KK, so it's fine.

There is basically no place on the screen where KH have upper hand over KK. Safe 50/50 from midscreen to up close, decent zoning, good AA. It's a nightmare for KH if KK player know what to do + has the knowledge of Kotal strings and how to punish it properly.

In time some people will just have mediocre pocket Kenshi (Balanced / Kenjutsu) just to hard - counter pick for certain MUs and Kotal for sure is one of them.

 

[Belial]

Something fucked up after patch

KK can no longer interrupt Takeda f1,2+4 and f12,2+4 with armor. Other characters can. I know he could before patch b/c I played Takeda a lot back then.
So this MU became even more stupid

 

[Belial]

So I wanted to make a quick list of basic MU defining stuff and decided to share so everyone can make an input

Cassie (hollywood mostly)
- She can punish your specials really well on block, so do not come swinging with sword mixups
- Her footsie game probably is better than yours
- Cannot punish overhead strings
+ She cannot armor with ex-cartwheel after f1b2~db3 and f34~db3 (corner) leaving nutpunch as the only armored solution against special-cancel pressure
+ You can anti-air her fairly consistantly (although not completely)
+ Easy punishment on her main specials (cartwheel, nutpunch)
Sum: Unfavorable MU

Scorpion
+ Escape cancel-pressure by eating last hit (basically univeral escape)
+ Your normals are much better
+ He cannot punish your mixups
+ He cannot armor your strings (technically he can with ex slide but it sucks)
+ b122 completely evades teleport on wakeups
+ Can be AA'ed by Kotal to a degree (although very risky)
+ Low profile gives his pressure a lot of problems
Sum: Overall one of the best MU for KK

Shinnok (mainly impostor)
- You cannot punish sparks on block (db1 will work if he has no meter, MB db1 will only score 1 hit, so its not an option against 3hit spark MB), also means can spam wka sparks
- Steals your air grab that nets both huge damage AND re-vortex
+ Can counter teleport via airgrab (need more testing actually)
+ Very poor armored moves allow to spam some strings you otherwise wouldnt
+ Use fuzzy guard to increase your survival rate against mixup
+ Non WG variations can zone fullscreen (although ex teleport will hurt)

Sum: A very bad MU for Kotal

Liu Kang
+ Poor armor moves
+ Escape cancel-pressure by getting hit
+ Poor AA tools (has to low-profile)
+ Easy to AA
- Can punish your specials and normals well
- Strong zoning
- Multihitting moves make wakeup atacks useless
- Cannot really do much when he is KD'ed
Sum: About equal

Quan Chi
+ Your high damage output allow for a good punishment in case you read him
+ Difficult to punish your specials
+ Non existant wakeups (see Quarks thread about Quan Chi chip out)
+ Fuzzy guard against his mixups
- Very powerful zoning
- Top tier
Sum: Kotal is one of the worst equipped characters to take quan down, as a character who mainly relies on good reads you cannot really "open up" Quan even if you're in his face. Unless you are successful in Quarking him there is just no way for you to win this.

Erron Black
+ Cannot punish your specials well
+ Cannot AA
+ Your normals are generally better\
+ Easy to AA
+ Dont foret you can armor through most strings should he chose to special cancel them (notably f13~exbf+3,b)
+ Easy to punish his njp on wiff
- Difficult to get wakeup on him (specials require different solutions)
- Fullscreen sand bombs are difficult to handle
Sum: I think this MU is favorable for KK

Ermac
- Punishes your specials for full damage into vortex
- Has good zoning
+ You can punish his specials and mixup very well
+ You have better normals
+ Doesnt have many WKA options
+ Has terrible armor
Sum: Equal or favorable

Takeda
- Post patch cannot armor through his f1,2+4 and f1,2,2+4 strings
- This makes this MU even more fucked up than ever
- You dont punish some of his specials well
+ Cant really think of any, doesnt mean this MU is terrible but you best DD is random overhead strike
Sum: Overall very stupid MU and is favorable for Takeda

Johhny Cage
+ You can control him via OSS well
+ Dont duck
+ Easy to AA
+ Your normals are slightly better
- His projectiles are really annoying
- Can punish all your strings via ex nutpunch for full combo guaranteed (you have workaround post b14 but not b12 or f1b2)
- Can AA really well via ex nutpunch
- Can punish your sword mixups fairly easy
Sum: Bad MU, you have to get close to him through fireball spam and there you cant do much

Mileena
+ You have slighly more range
+ Cannot punish low sword (or can she?)
+ Cannot punish max range OSS
- Her pokes are extremely good
- Has great AA
- Very hard to AA
- Strong zoning, strong space control
- Low profiles too many things
- Her ex roll beats your OSS
- You punish her normals poorly
Sum: Unfavorable, she basically dominates your preferred range as you cant AA her jumps, have to deal with Sais, respect roll and her normals range is almost as good as yours

Sub Zero
+ Cant AA w/o meter
- You cant AA him
- Clone
Sum: There is not much to do about this MU, one of the worst even post-patch

Sonya
+ You punish her well
+ Can armor through lots of gaps for great damage
+ Doesnt have a very good WKA
+ Fairly easy to AA
+ Your normals have better range
+ Doesnt punish your sword well (does she?)
+ Doesnt have good armor moves (has parry though but it can be baited)
Sum: One of the best MU for Kotal overall

Kung Jin
- Cant be AA
- Has good armored punishers for your strings
- Good wakeup options
+ You can punish a lot of his stuff well
+ Cannot punish your sword atacks
Sum: An even MU so far

At this point I got bored, will add more and update later ^_^

 

[Qwark28]

@LionHeart your input on mileena and cassie? i have both as even

 

[Qwark28]

I disagree about a lot of things and ill post them all later but subzero is not a bad matchup for war god. for any other variation its death

war god can aa with ex oss, anti crossup with ex oss, blow through clone, use it as a mixup, clip movement etc. both chars must get in when they dont have the lead and after some enders you can do a sun ray. your armour is better and your mixups slowly tear chunks of his health while his are unsafe.

johnnys projectiles dont work from 3/4 screen

 

[Belial]

I disagree about a lot of things and ill post them all later but subzero is not a bad matchup for war god. for any other variation its death

war god can aa with ex oss, anti crossup with ex oss, blow through clone, use it as a mixup, clip movement etc. both chars must get in when they dont have the lead and after some enders you can do a sun ray. your armour is better and your mixups slowly tear chunks of his health while his are unsafe.

johnnys projectiles dont work from 3/4 screen

Discussion is more than welcome however I think I made a mistake - my original idea was not to make a tier list or judgement on whats good or bad, but to pinpoint weak/strong points in every matchup so we can adjust better. For example its good to know which characters you can use sword mixup against freely and which not.
So I really hope this initiative will not derail into discussing my judgement on good/bad MU