Match-Up Discussion - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn Match-Up Discussion

[mkl]

No it doesnt anymore, why dont you actually check stuff before posting.

I did. Like 700 times. You have to be ducking the string before he goes into the 2+4 or it won't have a hole in it. Regardless, him ending the string isn't a good idea even if he ends it with a special afterward so you'll just be dealing with the normal mixups after the first upswing if the Takeda is smart.

EDIT: Unless this is something PC didn't get.

Belial is a notorious douchebag in all game communities. Don't sweat it guys.

 

[Awkward Sloth]

So Kotal Khan (all variations) vs Pyro Tanya is at best a 7-3 (or worse) in Tanya's favor.

Please convince me otherwise because I've never been on the good end of a 7-3 MU before.

 

[Qwark28]

So Kotal Khan (all variations) vs Pyro Tanya is at best a 7-3 (or worse) in Tanya's favor.

Please convince me otherwise because I've never been on the good end of a 7-3 MU before.

I don't think we can throw out numbers just yet.

His J1 is an insanely strong tool against her.

 

[Mr Aquaman]

So Kotal Khan (all variations) vs Pyro Tanya is at best a 7-3 (or worse) in Tanya's favor.

Please convince me otherwise because I've never been on the good end of a 7-3 MU before.

Preach lol. My first kotal downplay.

 

[Awkward Sloth]

I don't think we can throw out numbers just yet.

His J1 is an insanely strong tool against her.

How? He has to get close enough to do that and anytime he tries to air to air her back or forward tele beats j1 into a fire ball. You can't counter zone with his ex projectile cause her's negates it.

Tanya also gets big body specific combos on him for an extra 3-4% damage.

 

[Qwark28]

How? He has to get close enough to do that and anytime he tries to air to air her back or forward tele beats j1 into a fire ball. You can't counter zone with his ex projectile cause her's negates it.

Tanya also gets big body specific combos on him for an extra 3-4% damage.

KK has amazing walkspeed, normal, jump reach and J1. I don't think getting in would be a problem, just keeping her in.

What do you mean tele beats J1 into fireball, her teleports are hits and she can cancel into fireball for a combo?

 

[Awkward Sloth]

KK has amazing walkspeed, normal, jump reach and J1. I don't think getting in would be a problem, just keeping her in.

What do you mean tele beats J1 into fireball, her teleports are hits and she can cancel into fireball for a combo?

The entire time you are trying to get in Tanya is building hella meter through fireballs, instant air teles and air teleport fire ball. All of while you gotta eat the chip or play donkey kong. And if you get in There's been enough meter for a breaker and Tanya isn't limited like most of the cast after a breaker.

If we are both in the air and you stick out a limb first I Tanya can react with tele back and throw a fire ball which has good knock back when used to hit someone out the air. Invincibility frames and the sheer quickness of the tele shut down a good amount of the cast trying to challenge her in the air.

Preach lol. My first kotal downplay.

Wanna explain your side of it Aqua?

 

[Mr Aquaman]

I've hit this man with j1 like twice lol. She can't be hit in the animation. And it's s guess where she's going. Guess wrong you are full screen in the grinder again. Or njpd to full combo. Then full screen in the grinder.

 

[LeeVanDam]

I play pyro Tanya as my secondary, and I don't see what would stop Kotal from just backing himself into a corner and using Sun Ray to mitigate all the chip damage and force her to come in (with the way her zoning works, you'd be free to whiff air throws too). I'm speaking from a pyro Tanya versus Sun God KK right now, so I'd need help ironing out why the other variations would be able to handle this.

Yes, she would build tons of meter for EX dust... breaker, and EX teleports, but none that would actually make a dent in Sun Ray's healing. She is required to come to you eventually, and at half screen you're just waiting for dust so you can block it. You can keep jumping back so that way if she runs in you get JB 1, and if she stops to dust you can avoid trip guard and land blocking. She's at -4 on block, so f+1~air throw can get you in safely and force her to armor out with something. If you catch her with jump back 1 (air or ground), she's losing 40% health unless she spends meter to break.

From Sun God's standpoint, as long as we have one bar for EX SGC... she can't mix us up in close because we'll just eat the attack and throw her. Blood God would be riskier with the parry, but it would work the same since most of her specials only have one hit. Her overhead/low mix up string options give you time to block/backdash out of the rest, so I can't find the issue. She's one of the few characters I run away from and heal when I fight her.

I haven't played a tourney ready Tanya yet, but from the ones I've played... I don't see where there is a fundamental problem.

 

[mkl]

I play pyro Tanya as my secondary, and I don't see what would stop Kotal from just backing himself into a corner and using Sun Ray to mitigate all the chip damage and force her to come in (with the way her zoning works, you'd be free to whiff air throws too). I'm speaking from a pyro Tanya versus Sun God KK right now, so I'd need help ironing out why the other variations would be able to handle this.

Yes, she would build tons of meter for EX dust... breaker, and EX teleports, but none that would actually make a dent in Sun Ray's healing. She is required to come to you eventually, and at half screen you're just waiting for dust so you can block it. You can keep jumping back so that way if she runs in you get JB 1, and if she stops to dust you can avoid trip guard and land blocking. She's at -4 on block, so f+1~air throw can get you in safely and force her to armor out with something. If you catch her with jump back 1 (air or ground), she's losing 40% health unless she spends meter to break.

From Sun God's standpoint, as long as we have one bar for EX SGC... she can't mix us up in close because we'll just eat the attack and throw her. Blood God would be riskier with the parry, but it would work the same since most of her specials only have one hit. Her overhead/low mix up string options give you time to block/backdash out of the rest, so I can't find the issue. She's one of the few characters I run away from and heal when I fight her.

I haven't played a tourney ready Tanya yet, but from the ones I've played... I don't see where there is a fundamental problem.

Your air fireball chip is going to do waaaaaaaaaay more damage than Sun Ray is going to heal, even EX if Tanya makes it a war of attrition.

 

[Hassun]

I play pyro Tanya as my secondary, and I don't see what would stop Kotal from just backing himself into a corner and using Sun Ray to mitigate all the chip damage and force her to come in (with the way her zoning works, you'd be free to whiff air throws too). I'm speaking from a pyro Tanya versus Sun God KK right now, so I'd need help ironing out why the other variations would be able to handle this.

Yes, she would build tons of meter for EX dust... breaker, and EX teleports, but none that would actually make a dent in Sun Ray's healing. She is required to come to you eventually, and at half screen you're just waiting for dust so you can block it. You can keep jumping back so that way if she runs in you get JB 1, and if she stops to dust you can avoid trip guard and land blocking. She's at -4 on block, so f+1~air throw can get you in safely and force her to armor out with something. If you catch her with jump back 1 (air or ground), she's losing 40% health unless she spends meter to break.

From Sun God's standpoint, as long as we have one bar for EX SGC... she can't mix us up in close because we'll just eat the attack and throw her. Blood God would be riskier with the parry, but it would work the same since most of her specials only have one hit. Her overhead/low mix up string options give you time to block/backdash out of the rest, so I can't find the issue. She's one of the few characters I run away from and heal when I fight her.

I haven't played a tourney ready Tanya yet, but from the ones I've played... I don't see where there is a fundamental problem.

I think Kotal just sitting back/ducking and healing vs zoners is vastly overrated. It rarely -if ever- works. Certainly not against Pyro Tanya.
From what I can see right now, Sun God Kotal has to rely on quite a lot of luck to beat that variation.

Disclaimer: I am a terrible player.

 

[PetulantWaste]

I play pyro Tanya as my secondary, and I don't see what would stop Kotal from just backing himself into a corner and using Sun Ray to mitigate all the chip damage and force her to come in (with the way her zoning works, you'd be free to whiff air throws too). I'm speaking from a pyro Tanya versus Sun God KK right now, so I'd need help ironing out why the other variations would be able to handle this.

Yes, she would build tons of meter for EX dust... breaker, and EX teleports, but none that would actually make a dent in Sun Ray's healing. She is required to come to you eventually, and at half screen you're just waiting for dust so you can block it. You can keep jumping back so that way if she runs in you get JB 1, and if she stops to dust you can avoid trip guard and land blocking. She's at -4 on block, so f+1~air throw can get you in safely and force her to armor out with something. If you catch her with jump back 1 (air or ground), she's losing 40% health unless she spends meter to break.

From Sun God's standpoint, as long as we have one bar for EX SGC... she can't mix us up in close because we'll just eat the attack and throw her. Blood God would be riskier with the parry, but it would work the same since most of her specials only have one hit. Her overhead/low mix up string options give you time to block/backdash out of the rest, so I can't find the issue. She's one of the few characters I run away from and heal when I fight her.

I haven't played a tourney ready Tanya yet, but from the ones I've played... I don't see where there is a fundamental problem.

No...just...No. Sun ray does not revive enough health and she's got all the meter and offensive power. This is not a neutral situation. You are a sitting duck. And sun ray is way way way too slow to put out on reaction. Are you trolling?

 

[PetulantWaste]

Sun Gods Losing MUs
Disclaimer: this post is just for debate i just wanted to put some numbers out there.
These are my scrub-tastic numbers for the Kotal Kahn SUN GOD match up:
Sub GM vs KK SG: 6-4, (5-5 in cryo and unbreakable) pick war god is the mantra we've been through it 200 times
Scorp Inf vs SG: 6-4, (5-5 in hellfire and ninjutsu) scorpion has a lot of weapons but SG can counter and punish accordingly the only problem I've found that is unique to KK is that Inf can zone you and force you to take meaty chip damage in addition to the usual vortex shenanigans.
Quan Chi Summoner vs SG: 6-4 (5-5 in warlock and sorcerer) If you manage to get him down then keep him down but your armored grab isn't fast enough to break through the last hit of rune trap, he'll wake up blocking a lot so the tick throws will add up but at full screen you're in for a nightmare)
Tanya Pyro vs SG: 7-3 (6-4 in naginata and kobu) She's broken as hell.)
Liu Kang FF & DF vs SG 6-4 ( 5-5 dualist since I've never even played one) this is my surprise without the added range of the sword kotal gets bested outside and in KK lacks the speed to effectively counter his offense
Kenshi 6-4 vs SG: 6-4 this is a fan favorite. Kenshi never gives me a ton of trouble once i get in and he can be baited and punished but I'll put him here for y'all. Some seen sure this is an 8-2 or something I'm not convinced.

 

[Hassun]

Just saw SonicFox dropping some hard Tanya bombs on Twitter. Can't say I'm surprised.

 

[LeeVanDam]

No...just...No. Sun ray does not revive enough health and she's got all the meter and offensive power. This is not a neutral situation. You are a sitting duck. And sun ray is way way way too slow to put out on reaction. Are you trolling?

Nah, I have to apologize. I just realized how much meter I build teleporting and chucking fireballs. It's way worse since it gives Tanya EX dust all day long. I couldn't imagine myself as Sun God fighting her unless the Tanya is really sloppy.

 

[Qwark28]

Every variation of Kotal loses to kenshi horribly while sun and war god destroy any variation of scorpions but ninjutsu.

you also have a near block infinite on non-warlock quan chi so there is no way he wins against him.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Every variation of Kotal loses to kenshi horribly while sun and war god destroy any variation of scorpions but ninjutsu.

you also have a near block infinite on non-warlock quan chi so there is no way he wins against him.

You'll have to convince me that sun god vs scorpion is a winning match up. I've never seen anyone play it where it looked better than even. As far as the infinite you could easily say they quan has equally good dirt with his vortex.

 

[Qwark28]

You'll have to convince me that sun god vs scorpion is a winning match up. I've never seen anyone play it where it looked better than even. As far as the infinite you could easily say they quan has equally good dirt with his vortex.

Quan's vortex is not a guaranteed 35% to 100% every time he touches you and can be broken out of.

Sun god outfootsies scorpion, outdamages him, takes way less risks and has superior mixups. All that hellfire scorpion does is fish for counterhits with his flame aura and teleport confirms from J3, which from certain ranges can be very safely antiaired both as a jump in and a crossup. You have safejumps and option selects off of every single sun choke.

He's an aura/jump kick 50-50 character who can't compete with your normals, setups or damage.

 

[Awkward Sloth]

I've hit this man with j1 like twice lol. She can't be hit in the animation. And it's s guess where she's going. Guess wrong you are full screen in the grinder again. Or njpd to full combo. Then full screen in the grinder.

Good times. Good times.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Quan's vortex is not a guaranteed 35% to 100% every time he touches you and can be broken out of.

Sun god outfootsies scorpion, outdamages him, takes way less risks and has superior mixups. All that hellfire scorpion does is fish for counterhits with his flame aura and teleport confirms from J3, which from certain ranges can be very safely antiaired both as a jump in and a crossup. You have safejumps and option selects off of every single sun choke.

He's an aura/jump kick 50-50 character who can't compete with your normals, setups or damage.

Whoa whoa whoa, Sun God mixups are superior to scorpion's? Sun god is safe? What's safe about him? Besides the 114 df1 or spending meter to end a string in ex sun disk what safe pressure/mix ups does he have? Block low then high, no overhead starter except that slow ass, reactable, 1 hit, knock down. Not to mention, you need meter to break 40% as well. Any tick throw is a risk. If they, for some reason, don't block the tick then you'll eat a full combo it's a high risk medium reward situation where if you fail you can eat 40% and if you succeed you net 19%. Scorpion can react to SG's pressure, zone, mix up, and put him in the blender and if you break you'll be giving up all that meter that you absolutely need for safe pressure and your 1 armored wake up move that can be jumped over and has minimal range.

EDIT: Wait a sec... I don't use option selects. Have i been handicapping myself this whole time, dear lord what have i done??

 

[Qwark28]

Whoa whoa whoa, Sun God mixups are superior to scorpion's? Sun god is safe? What's safe about him? Besides the 114 df1 or spending meter to end a string in ex sun disk what safe pressure/mix ups does he have? Block low then high, no overhead starter except that slow ass, reactable, 1 hit, knock down. Not to mention, you need meter to break 40% as well. Any tick throw is a risk. If they, for some reason, don't block the tick then you'll eat a full combo it's a high risk medium reward situation where if you fail you can eat 40% and if you succeed you net 19%. Scorpion can react to SG's pressure, zone, mix up, and put him in the blender and if you break you'll be giving up all that meter that you absolutely need for safe pressure and your 1 armored wake up move that can be jumped over and has minimal range.

Kotal actually has 50 50s, unlike scorpion.

You need meter to do 47%, you don't need meter to do 38.

You say spending meter as if it's a bad thing. Scorpion has no reversal, you don't have anything to fear. Anytime you safejump him you have guaranteed 10.75% chip damage with 4 points at which you can tick throw for the overall cost of 20% of a bar since you make it almost all back any way. And in no way do you need meter for safe pressure.

If you're smart about tick throws people don't anticipate them. If your opponent is suddenly jumping or getting hit by normals it's your fault for not realising that they're conditioned, anytime my opponent is aware of my tick throws I punish their jump or bait their armour depending on what kind of player they are and their bars. If you succeed, you get 19, if you succeed you get 45%, if you fail you get full combo punished. And you are the one that makes them press buttons and do punishable stuff, if you're not in control at that point that's your mistake, not to mention scorpion doesn't even have armour.

React with what? To what? Why, you're afraid of eating a 2% poke that is almost useless on hit because his mids are complete shit?

Zone with what? Inferno doesn't zone, it's a counterzoning variation designed to stop you chucking shit and pressing buttons when you shouldn't be. You can block the overhead minion on reaction and he's - while the low is full combo punishable from midscreen distance.

All this comes from playing my local scorpion.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Kotal actually has 50 50s, unlike scorpion.

You need meter to do 47%, you don't need meter to do 38.

You say spending meter as if it's a bad thing. Scorpion has no reversal, you don't have anything to fear. Anytime you safejump him you have guaranteed 10.75% chip damage with 4 points at which you can tick throw for the overall cost of 20% of a bar since you make it almost all back any way. And in no way do you need meter for safe pressure.

If you're smart about tick throws people don't anticipate them. If your opponent is suddenly jumping or getting hit by normals it's your fault for not realising that they're conditioned, anytime my opponent is aware of my tick throws I punish their jump or bait their armour depending on what kind of player they are and their bars. If you succeed, you get 19, if you succeed you get 45%, if you fail you get full combo punished. And you are the one that makes them press buttons and do punishable stuff, if you're not in control at that point that's your mistake, not to mention scorpion doesn't even have armour.

React with what? To what? Why, you're afraid of eating a 2% poke that is almost useless on hit because his mids are complete shit?

Zone with what? Inferno doesn't zone, it's a counterzoning variation designed to stop you chucking shit and pressing buttons when you shouldn't be. You can block the overhead minion on reaction and he's - while the low is full combo punishable from midscreen distance.

All this comes from playing my local scorpion.

Inferno can nullify jump in punches with jump kick tele or overhead minions or just raw trip guard tele, it's not so easy to get your safe pressure started. From full screen you have to take at least 2 overhead minions in chip before you can launch an attack. His advancing normals are all full combo punishable so if you make a risky read then you're eating 40%. Tick throws are still risky as hell even if your opponent doesn't see them coming it's based on the prediction that they'll successfully block. 114 can be low profiled. Do you have any footage of you playing the match up? I'd like to learn from how you counter scorpion.

 

[Qwark28]

Inferno can nullify jump in punches with jump kick tele or overhead minions or just raw trip guard tele, it's not so easy to get your safe pressure started. From full screen you have to take at least 2 overhead minions in chip before you can launch an attack. His advancing normals are all full combo punishable so if you make a risky read then you're eating 40%. Tick throws are still risky as hell even if your opponent doesn't see them coming it's based on the prediction that they'll successfully block. 114 can be low profiled. Do you have any footage of you playing the match up? I'd like to learn from how you counter scorpion.

It's called a safejump exactly because it can't be anti aired.

2 overheading minions are 4% or so chip, in order to get in vs characters with good projectiles you take in a lot more chip and actual damage and still don't lose the matchup e.g cybernetic kano.

F2 is safe
F1 is safe
B1 is safe

These are all the normals you need, unless you're 100% certain you'll hit. You don't even have to commit against scorpion.


114 cannot be low profiled from a safejump after a tick throw or a point blank poke on hit.

If you're worried about your opponents randomly unblocking and causing you to whiff your throw entirely on accident then I don't know why you're not capitalising on that.

We had some footage of a few matches, we'll record more as they were deleted on twitch.