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General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

What is your favorite Variation?

  • War God

    Votes: 170 42.0%
  • Sun God

    Votes: 139 34.3%
  • Blood God

    Votes: 61 15.1%
  • All Equally

    Votes: 35 8.6%

  • Total voters
    405
War God is the strongest variation with good mixups, can make all his strings safe, and can punish for +35% for one bar. He can't zone because his projectile is ridiculously slow, and he loses most of his specials for a few seconds after he uses it. It is however extremely plus on block, making it somewhat useful for setups.
What do you mean by loses most specials for a few second after using the projectile?
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
What do you mean by loses most specials for a few second after using the projectile?
He loses his sword until it comes back. All but 3 require the sword.

You really shouldn't be throwing it around all that much. And at 56 frames of start up, you likely wouldn't get the chance to throw it often. The EX version is more useable, however, at I want to say 21 start up frames. It's still not something I'd try to spam.

Also he's got very good footsies.
 

NHDR

Noob
I think the sword toss should be used from long range very sparingly, mostly as a way to initiate block and then run in. I would never use it in a projectile war, the startup is so slow that you're bound to get stuffed. The EX sword throw can be used more freely but you're better off saving the meter. I haven't tested it yet but it feels like EX sword throw could be used as a good pressure tool, it seems very + on block. Need to test it though.
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
I think the sword toss should be used from long range very sparingly, mostly as a way to initiate block and then run in. I would never use it in a projectile war, the startup is so slow that you're bound to get stuffed. The EX sword throw can be used more freely but you're better off saving the meter. I haven't tested it yet but it feels like EX sword throw could be used as a good pressure tool, it seems very + on block. Need to test it though.
I have tested it, it's not that great because of how far the push back is and you lose your best overhead. However, using b122~Sword Toss as an ender hits meaty, so you get 11% if it hits, 4.3% and a safe dash in if they block, or they figure out they can tech roll or just stay on the ground. If they get up and block, that usually makes up for the lost damage from not doing a proper ender. Sometimes it's actually more damage.

Other than that, you've got the right idea. Throw sword and follow it. Though using a meter just for the opportunity to get in kinda sucks.
 

NHDR

Noob
I might have asked this before but: fastest string to punish something? I have zero matchup knowledge and will be making "educated guesses" as to what I can punish on block. I'll be relying on F12. Good call?
 

regulas

Your Emporer
I might have asked this before but: fastest string to punish something? I have zero matchup knowledge and will be making "educated guesses" as to what I can punish on block. I'll be relying on F12. Good call?
Depends on how far, generally I think B1 or F1 have speed and range. I think 1 (by itself) is a frame faster if they are close enough. Otherwise a poke or uppercut.
 

regulas

Your Emporer
A term i see used all the time but dont understand is "meaty" what does that mean exactly?
Mostly this refers to landing ranged attacks or specials when they are waking/standing up in such a way as to give you large advantage. Usually it's used when talking about moves like sword toss that have a slow start-up, you can time it so that it hits when they wak-up negated the slow start-up and putting you in a vary advantageous position even if they block.

Normals on a waking opponent would instead usually be referred to as Oki


http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Glossary_of_fighting_games#Meaty kind of gives a rundown of different terms though these are mostly from a street fighter perspective.
 
Actually these days meaty simply means landing any attack on wakeup such that it is active the very frame they are vulnerable, meaning they have to either block it immediately or input a perfect reversal.

It is also used to mean hitting with the last active frames of a move, essentially making it more advantageous on block than it usually would be.

Oki simply means anything you do to pressure a downed opponent. Basically it is the offesnvie side of wakeup. We use the term to separate offense from defense, so wakeup game is what you do when you yourself are getting up (defensive), okizeme is what you do when your opponent is getting up (offensive).

EDIT: This is getting kind of off topic haha, but meaty sword is something I need to experiment with, I think there are too many wakeup options in this game for it to be an always-use option. Tech chasing in this game is very complex.
 

KeyserSoze

Fabled Villain
I might have asked this before but: fastest string to punish something? I have zero matchup knowledge and will be making "educated guesses" as to what I can punish on block. I'll be relying on F12. Good call?
114 is the fastest punishment string, but the 11 has extremely limited range. F1B2 and B12 are both still quite fast with very good range. F1B2, B12, and 114 are, in my opinion, his three best punishment starters.
 

Hassun

Noob
(I will reface this by saying I am a terrible and inexperienced player)

I've now played MKX for 40+ hours, mostly with Sun God Kotal Kahn and I have some impressions/questions.

Sun God Kotal seems like a very bad character. Mostly because his normals are very slow, allowing a lot of characters to beat his moves (seemingly) on reaction. His wakeup also suffers greatly because of this, being cornered seems like a death sentence.

He feels like a medium range fighter who wants to use the range of his normals to keep an opponent at bay. If an opponent gets close he's screwed because their normals will beat his normals, leaving him with just a command throw and a parry. Likewise an opponent at long range is also problematic because Kotal barely has any options to deal with strong zoning. Casting (ex) sunlight on himself is a losing proposition vs zoners.

He doesn't seem to have a good high/low combo starter like some other characters. I have not found a lot of usefulness in the 1,4 combo.
He doesn't seem to have fast multi-hits to blow up armoured moves either.
His metre build seems downright atrocious because he can rarely use his specials and is forced to defend a lot. An opponent getting 6 bars for every 3 of mine is common.

It's very hard to keep the pressure on an opponent. Their faster normals and mixups usually force me into defence mode very quickly where I usually stay. From then on it's hoping for a mistake so I can sneak in a combo and/or command throw.

I know basically two combos right now, both do 38-39% with 1 bar. Decent but not great either. His f2 can result in massive damage but actually landing it is incredibly hard and risky. 1,1,4 seems to be his best option.


I don't want to be a downer though. I still like playing him a lot. His Dry Rub Brutality is one of my favourite things to do in MKX and his normals generally look great.

To improve my game I would like to ask for some advice from the much more advanced players like you guys and gals are:
  • Does anyone know of good ways to open up players and/or keep them on the defensive?
  • What about air to air moves? I always seem to lose the air battle unless I throw out my attack well before they do.
  • What about anti-airs? Are air grab and d2 my best bet?
  • Any tips on beating corner pressure would also be greatly appreciated normally I try to neutral jump or d4 with a ex parry or command throw if I think I have a read on a player, sadly it seems like a lot of attacks beat nearly all of those options.
  • I am bad at combos. Even the f2,1,f2,ex air grab,f2,d2 (39%) took me 2 hours in training mode to figure out and even then I've only managed to do it online maybe 5 times. 1,1,4,ex air grab,f2,d2 (38%) is easier but I've failed at reliably extending that one. Are there other (easy) combos which would be a good addition to my repertoire? I've noticed multiple characters have ~40% combos even without metre.
Thanks for the help in advance and if anyone has questions I will do my best to help.
 
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Anyone have any advice on fighting against Kung Jin's 50/50 with bojutsu variation? I have yet to discover anything that effectively works.
 

NHDR

Noob
@Hassun

I can only comment on your question regarding anti-airs. Yeah, air grab and D2 are your best options. I'm a Kotal noob myself, getting used to him though.
 

delbuster

hungry
Anyone have any advice on fighting against Kung Jin's 50/50 with bojutsu variation? I have yet to discover anything that effectively works.
unfortunately there's no situation in your favor, but you can do the following:
in neutral
-if you think they are about to do a low/overhead, try to do f1 before they get their move out
-if you are playing wargod, do ex db1 in the same timing, but more lenient since you have armor
-walk in and out of range of their low/overhead, whiff punish if they go for it
-sometimes you have to just block

on wakeup
-probably have to block. use roll/delay wakeup to mess with their timing, but default to block.
-find gaps where you can reversal
 
unfortunately there's no situation in your favor, but you can do the following:
in neutral
-if you think they are about to do a low/overhead, try to do f1 before they get their move out
-if you are playing wargod, do ex db1 in the same timing, but more lenient since you have armor
-walk in and out of range of their low/overhead, whiff punish if they go for it
-sometimes you have to just block

on wakeup
-probably have to block. use roll/delay wakeup to mess with their timing, but default to block.
-find gaps where you can reversal
Thanks.

The solutions you listed were ones I've been readily applying in matches against Kung Jin. However, I've seen little success. The match up seems rather unfavorable.
 

LeeVanDam

Sun God Advocate
(I will reface this by saying I am a terrible and inexperienced player)

I've now played MKX for 40+ hours, mostly with Sun God Kotal Kahn and I have some impressions/questions.

Sun God Kotal seems like a very bad character. Mostly because his normals are very slow, allowing a lot of characters to beat his moves (seemingly) on reaction. His wakeup also suffers greatly because of this, being cornered seems like a death sentence.

He feels like a medium range fighter who wants to use the range of his normals to keep an opponent at bay. If an opponent gets close he's screwed because their normals will beat his normals, leaving him with just a command throw and a parry. Likewise an opponent at long range is also problematic because Kotal barely has any options to deal with strong zoning. Casting (ex) sunlight on himself is a losing proposition vs zoners.

He doesn't seem to have a good high/low combo starter like some other characters. I have not found a lot of usefulness in the 1,4 combo.
He doesn't seem to have fast multi-hits to blow up armoured moves either.
His metre build seems downright atrocious because he can rarely use his specials and is forced to defend a lot. An opponent getting 6 bars for every 3 of mine is common.

It's very hard to keep the pressure on an opponent. Their faster normals and mixups usually force me into defence mode very quickly where I usually stay. From then on it's hoping for a mistake so I can sneak in a combo and/or command throw.

I know basically two combos right now, both do 38-39% with 1 bar. Decent but not great either. His f2 can result in massive damage but actually landing it is incredibly hard and risky. 1,1,4 seems to be his best option.


I don't want to be a downer though. I still like playing him a lot. His Dry Rub Brutality is one of my favourite things to do in MKX and his normals generally look great.

To improve my game I would like to ask for some advice from the much more advanced players like you guys and gals are:
  • Does anyone know of good ways to open up players and/or keep them on the defensive?
  • What about air to air moves? I always seem to lose the air battle unless I throw out my attack well before they do.
  • What about anti-airs? Are air grab and d2 my best bet?
  • Any tips on beating corner pressure would also be greatly appreciated normally I try to neutral jump or d4 with a ex parry or command throw if I think I have a read on a player, sadly it seems like a lot of attacks beat nearly all of those options.
  • I am bad at combos. Even the f2,1,f2,ex air grab,f2,d2 (39%) took me 2 hours in training mode to figure out and even then I've only managed to do it online maybe 5 times. 1,1,4,ex air grab,f2,d2 (38%) is easier but I've failed at reliably extending that one. Are there other (easy) combos which would be a good addition to my repertoire? I've noticed multiple characters have ~40% combos even without metre.
Thanks for the help in advance and if anyone has questions I will do my best to help.
Okay, the first thing you have to make sure you understand is that the threat of Sun God Choke will do all the opening up that you'll need. Because it is unblockable, landing it once reinforces that you don't need a mid/low mix up because your 50/50 mix up is "am I going to strike you, or am I going to throw you?".

His d+1 and d+3 are some of the fastest normals in the game, so you need to utilitze them when you're up close and you don't have a game plan. Also, you can cancel either of these into the Sun God Choke on block and it can't be reversed (i.e. their only options for escape are jump/back dash). I'm still checking out some other normals, because some feel like you can cancel them on hit and still get the throw. I'll get back to you on that. I believe b+1,4 is in this category.

You can use jumping 2 early in your jump for air to air combat, it comes out reasonably fast. If you land it, you get a full combo. (i.e. f+2, (delay) f+2, 2,1> ex air throw, 2,1, sun god choke). This is my BnB, and it's around 43% at level 3 so it works just fine for me.

Range 2 where f+2 can land is a great place to be. It's just outside of d+4 range which is ridiculous in itself, and still close enough to where you can dash Sun God Choke (back to the hit/throw mixup).

Once you've choked them once, apply pressure based on their habits. Many people wake up blocking/reversal, so I normally start with jumping over them. I'll either do a jumping 2, expecting them to block so that I can work on a block string into Sun God Choke... or empty jump and Sun God Choke again. You must train them to respect the choke as an option before everything becomes easier. Getting to level 3 choke makes the match much easier from a lot of different angles. Oh, and people will try to uppercut you on wake up when they think you're going to choke again... so just walk backwards to make the uppercut whiff, then choke them or f+2 them!

Always end juggles with the Sun God Choke if possible. Much easier to level it up that way. 2,1,2 is a nice ender if you want to keep the opponent close to you after you reach level 3 choke, but otherwise... choke 'em out!!

The combo I mentioned above is normally the only one I use unless I'm off that day and I'm not hitting the second f+2, then I just take out that f+2. For a corner variation, you can do 3x f+2 before starting the rest of the combo (I saw a vid of this guy hitting 5x f+2 in the corner! Crazy!). Practice the juggle that works for you. You want to get the most reliable damage you can, because the rest of your ground game will make up for it. Using the juggle you have now, you still only need two combos to end the round once you're ground game is doing what it's supposed to do.

Once you have meter (2 bars normally), use EX Sunstone to surprise people. Great damage, and the knockdown will give you plenty of time to move back in. I try to keep one bar for EX air throw unless I just have to stop an opponent's long range assault.

If you have 2.5 bars... Level 3 Soul Scorch > X-Ray is viable, and it will surprise almost any zoner you come across.

I learned here that b+3,2 is safe on block so be sure to use it in order to cover ground safely. I can't remember the other strings which are safe ta the moment, but this is the one I use to cover ground. If you want to keep the pressure on, EX Sun God Choke will give you armor if they retaliate. This is a good way to scare them, so the next time you do this string... they'll either spend bar for an armored reversal, or give you back the advantage you wanted in the first place by trying to avoid the throw.

The parry is going to be the key for high end play. We're going to have to learn common strings for other characters so we will be able to interrupt with EX parry, and murder them afterwards. It only takes one parry to save a round for you. Parry into EX Parry is great too. I've started working on this more for special moves which I know have multiple hits (i.e. Kung Jin's Bo staff swing). We have a unique opportunity to turn common pressure strings into unsafe situations for the opponent, so we must take advantage of it when we can.

We're glad to have you here with us, and we plan to take Kotal Kahn to his rightful place as Emperor! I personally want to take Sun God to the next level, and so anything I find that is helpful I'll be happy to share. The other players here are awesome, and I've already learned a lot from them in only a week. I can't wait to develop even more with everyone's help.
 

regulas

Your Emporer
@Hassun The short answer is simply: Play War God.

There might be ways to make sun god... work for nor... but it just won't be at the same level unless they give him some buffs.
 

Hassun

Noob
@Hassun

I can only comment on your question regarding anti-airs. Yeah, air grab and D2 are your best options. I'm a Kotal noob myself, getting used to him though.
Thanks for the heads-up.

Okay, the first thing you have to make sure you understand is that the threat of Sun God Choke will do all the opening up that you'll need. Because it is unblockable, landing it once reinforces that you don't need a mid/low mix up because your 50/50 mix up is "am I going to strike you, or am I going to throw you?".

His d+1 and d+3 are some of the fastest normals in the game, so you need to utilitze them when you're up close and you don't have a game plan. Also, you can cancel either of these into the Sun God Choke on block and it can't be reversed (i.e. their only options for escape are jump/back dash). I'm still checking out some other normals, because some feel like you can cancel them on hit and still get the throw. I'll get back to you on that. I believe b+1,4 is in this category.

You can use jumping 2 early in your jump for air to air combat, it comes out reasonably fast. If you land it, you get a full combo. (i.e. f+2, (delay) f+2, 2,1> ex air throw, 2,1, sun god choke). This is my BnB, and it's around 43% at level 3 so it works just fine for me.

Range 2 where f+2 can land is a great place to be. It's just outside of d+4 range which is ridiculous in itself, and still close enough to where you can dash Sun God Choke (back to the hit/throw mixup).

Once you've choked them once, apply pressure based on their habits. Many people wake up blocking/reversal, so I normally start with jumping over them. I'll either do a jumping 2, expecting them to block so that I can work on a block string into Sun God Choke... or empty jump and Sun God Choke again. You must train them to respect the choke as an option before everything becomes easier. Getting to level 3 choke makes the match much easier from a lot of different angles. Oh, and people will try to uppercut you on wake up when they think you're going to choke again... so just walk backwards to make the uppercut whiff, then choke them or f+2 them!

Always end juggles with the Sun God Choke if possible. Much easier to level it up that way. 2,1,2 is a nice ender if you want to keep the opponent close to you after you reach level 3 choke, but otherwise... choke 'em out!!

The combo I mentioned above is normally the only one I use unless I'm off that day and I'm not hitting the second f+2, then I just take out that f+2. For a corner variation, you can do 3x f+2 before starting the rest of the combo (I saw a vid of this guy hitting 5x f+2 in the corner! Crazy!). Practice the juggle that works for you. You want to get the most reliable damage you can, because the rest of your ground game will make up for it. Using the juggle you have now, you still only need two combos to end the round once you're ground game is doing what it's supposed to do.

Once you have meter (2 bars normally), use EX Sunstone to surprise people. Great damage, and the knockdown will give you plenty of time to move back in. I try to keep one bar for EX air throw unless I just have to stop an opponent's long range assault.

If you have 2.5 bars... Level 3 Soul Scorch > X-Ray is viable, and it will surprise almost any zoner you come across.

I learned here that b+3,2 is safe on block so be sure to use it in order to cover ground safely. I can't remember the other strings which are safe ta the moment, but this is the one I use to cover ground. If you want to keep the pressure on, EX Sun God Choke will give you armor if they retaliate. This is a good way to scare them, so the next time you do this string... they'll either spend bar for an armored reversal, or give you back the advantage you wanted in the first place by trying to avoid the throw.

The parry is going to be the key for high end play. We're going to have to learn common strings for other characters so we will be able to interrupt with EX parry, and murder them afterwards. It only takes one parry to save a round for you. Parry into EX Parry is great too. I've started working on this more for special moves which I know have multiple hits (i.e. Kung Jin's Bo staff swing). We have a unique opportunity to turn common pressure strings into unsafe situations for the opponent, so we must take advantage of it when we can.

We're glad to have you here with us, and we plan to take Kotal Kahn to his rightful place as Emperor! I personally want to take Sun God to the next level, and so anything I find that is helpful I'll be happy to share. The other players here are awesome, and I've already learned a lot from them in only a week. I can't wait to develop even more with everyone's help.
Oh wow that's a lot of valuable info! I'll definitely try to implement it in my game.
I just had a 1-15 game against an inferno Scorpion so I'm feeling pretty down about my long range and wakeup options but these tips will certainly help. I've noticed I miss way too many Sun Choke grabs and juggles in general. I will be transitioning from PS3 pad to fightstick soon and I hope it will improve my sloppy execution.

One thing about Sunstone I did notice is if you get a knockdown and your opponent has no instant way to get in (teleports/fast slides/etc.) you can throw out a lot of them and it will be reasonably difficult for your opponent to get in on you. I beat a Shirai Ryu Takeda 5-0 earlier by standing right outside his whip range and pelting him with sun stones. Takdea does have a teleports of course be he was pretty predictable with them so that wasn't much of an issue.

I hope UltraDavid will give us some more good tips and tactics when he and James Chen go over Kotal in their next MKX video.


@Hassun The short answer is simply: Play War God.
I know what you mean but I really like that command grab a lot...
 
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Reauxbot

You think you bad? You aint bad.
So as i was bored today i decidely to tinker with the God.
And he feels really amazing. Unfortunately i just played around in War God.
Obviously his range is really good. But what are the pros and cons to this guy? Feels like he should be really good and grabbed my attention. Also his fatality and brutalities lol
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
So as i was bored today i decidely to tinker with the God.
And he feels really amazing. Unfortunately i just played around in War God.
Obviously his range is really good. But what are the pros and cons to this guy? Feels like he should be really good and grabbed my attention. Also his fatality and brutalities lol
Pros: Strong Mixups, footsies, good damage, can make all his strings safe.

Cons: Slow normals, can be zoned hard.

War God is the best variation. The others have more damage, but they can't open people up as well. Blood God is where the stupid amounts of damage are at with a lot of setup, but you can pretty much only punish. Sun God's command throw needs to be leveled up and only does up to 16% damage on the third time you land it (starting at 7).
 

regulas

Your Emporer
I know what you mean but I really like that command grab a lot...
Ya I know, I originally wanted to do Sun god myself but I've just found the problems too much for myself. You can undoubtedly do well with it with practice but it's still basically a handicap. That being said if they do fix or change anything with it it could become amazing really easy in which case all the practice with Sun would pay off.
 
Pros: Strong Mixups, footsies, good damage, can make all his strings safe.

Cons: Slow normals, can be zoned hard.

War God is the best variation. The others have more damage, but they can't open people up as well. Blood God is where the stupid amounts of damage are at with a lot of setup, but you can pretty much only punish. Sun God's command throw needs to be leveled up and only does up to 16% damage on the third time you land it (starting at 7).
I actually like blood god better than war god. I just can't get into war gods playstyle.
 

Khaoz77

Don't run, you're gonna trip...
I love Sun God so much, it's too much fun making people bow before the Kahn. War God is great too, when i'm fighting people that know what they're doing.