Strategy - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn Blood god/Sun God damage comparison

[Qwark28]

Take note that this is for players who want to use variations that are not War god, as it's not popular at all among the community.

So, I recently checked out Blood god to see how much damage it does. I thought that Kotal's variations might be badly done ( except war god ) but there is one extremely solid aspect he has, whiff punishing.

He seemed to do insanely good damage with crystal totem and I'm a sucker for good damage to come along with good whiff punishes. Then I thought, Kotal already does very high damage combos, what's the actual difference? How much of that 57% combo is actually the crystal totem, especially when coupled with the fact Sun god gets the most damaging ender out of all 3 variations?

I have recorded both totem and non-totem combos.

Now please compare that damage to this

The answer is fluctuating near 11% and Sun choke adds 3% extra damage to his highest damage BnBs, making the real difference ~8%.

And what is the price of totems? Now, I'm sure it's very obvious War god is the best variation and anyone not playing it is doing a disservice to themselves. So the real meter of comparison is Sun god.

Sun god has a command grab, crystal totem allows a regular throw to do as much as a L3 Sun choke, is faster and better on whiff but doesn't have the frametrap properties of a real command grab. It also doesn't have armour properties, Blood god has no armour whatsoever and the parry is notoriously bad.

I have also taken into account the common KK "gimmick" I guess of throwing out B14 into ex sunstone or F34 ex sunstone, the damage difference was 7/8% with the crystal totem active.

Totems also have startup. Blood god must set them up first before his damage can accumulate and he runs the risk of the totem running dry of Aku Aku's tiki powers, not to mention that constant upkeep is required.

Therefore we reach the conclusion that if you pressure Blood god, he has no reversal and cannot set up his totems, effectively rendering him variationless in certain situations for a period of time.

We naturally reach the conclusion that Sun god is better versus character who pressure you and have an adequate enough presence of space control to constantly check you if you whiff or need to set something up. Likewise, in matchups where the opponent doesn't have very good pressure or space control, Crystal totem would completely decimate the opponent's lifebar.

A few words about Obsidian totem. I have almost completely disregarded it, this is a damage comparison and as it currently stands, if you're barely able to get a totem out then it means your opponent's pressure is good and merely taking less damage for a small period of time without knowing if you'll be able to breathe enough to lay another one down is very meh.

 

[Qwark28]

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@D. R.
@BigMilk
@RYX
@SEV
@REYTHEGREAT

 

[Qwark28]

@GrandMasterson
@kabelfritz
@Belial
@SepticFir8
@BNA Dislexsik

 

[Crayraven]

Good stuff man!

 

[RYX]

totems would be a lot more interesting with utility bonuses than damage buffs/reductions

good job on the math though, i guess what we have to do now is cherry-pick which characters' tools are good for which variation.

 

[kabelfritz]

i think the defensive totem should be standard in the neutral and the damage/meter ones should only be summoned mid-Combo.

 

[Belial]

Damage totem is your choice in neutral for all times except zoners and blocked unsafes such as f1b2. It expires quickly to really prevent any combo damage and crystal totem is the only reason your opponent will respect your neutral game - risk of eating 50% off a random f1 really keeps them in check you can't possibly inspire that level of respect with obsidian

 

[SepticFir8]

@Qwark28

In other words, crystal totem's increased damage is notable, although only around 11% damage. I haven't played around with Blood God in some time, but I am very curious what the difference on chip damage with Crystal Totem active would be. Probably not as much as, say, Quan's Hex Spell, but hopefully still worthwhile.

Sun Choke might not add very much damage to his combos, but as you stated, the power of tick throws, and an armored grab is nice. It's nothing compared to what War God offers, unfortunately, in terms of overall options.

Which is a massive shame, because I think Sun God is the coolest variation Kotal has.

EDIT; saw your thread on Blood God chip damage. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be very much.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Take note that this is for players who want to use variations that are not War god, as it's not popular at all among the community.

So, I recently checked out Blood god to see how much damage it does. I thought that Kotal's variations might be badly done ( except war god ) but there is one extremely solid aspect he has, whiff punishing.

He seemed to do insanely good damage with crystal totem and I'm a sucker for good damage to come along with good whiff punishes. Then I thought, Kotal already does very high damage combos, what's the actual difference? How much of that 57% combo is actually the crystal totem, especially when coupled with the fact Sun god gets the most damaging ender out of all 3 variations?

I have recorded both totem and non-totem combos.

Now please compare that damage to this

The answer is fluctuating near 11% and Sun choke adds 3% extra damage to his highest damage BnBs, making the real difference ~8%.

And what is the price of totems? Now, I'm sure it's very obvious War god is the best variation and anyone not playing it is doing a disservice to themselves. So the real meter of comparison is Sun god.

Sun god has a command grab, crystal totem allows a regular throw to do as much as a L3 Sun choke, is faster and better on whiff but doesn't have the frametrap properties of a real command grab. It also doesn't have armour properties, Blood god has no armour whatsoever and the parry is notoriously bad.

I have also taken into account the common KK "gimmick" I guess of throwing out B14 into ex sunstone or F34 ex sunstone, the damage difference was 7/8% with the crystal totem active.

Totems also have startup. Blood god must set them up first before his damage can accumulate and he runs the risk of the totem running dry of Aku Aku's tiki powers, not to mention that constant upkeep is required.

Therefore we reach the conclusion that if you pressure Blood god, he has no reversal and cannot set up his totems, effectively rendering him variationless in certain situations for a period of time
We naturally reach the conclusion that Sun god is better versus character who pressure you and have an adequate enough presence of space control to constantly check you if you whiff or need to set something up. Likewise, in matchups where the opponent doesn't have very good pressure or space control, Crystal totem would completely decimate the opponent's lifebar.

A few words about Obsidian totem. I have almost completely disregarded it, this is a damage comparison and as it currently stands, if you're barely able to get a totem out then it means your opponent's pressure is good and merely taking less damage for a small period of time without knowing if you'll be able to breathe enough to lay another one down is very meh.

This is excellent. Really good stuff. I'd just like to add two things:

1) Crystal totem also earns some of its money in non-whiff punishing situations. For example, it gives you an 18% d2 - i.e. Your d2 is now equivalent to a meterless combo. That is just badass.

2) obsidian totem really shines against zoners. Zoners tend to have relatively low damage output to begin with, so being able to take 34% less damage for significant portions of the match can be game-changing.

 

[Crayraven]

This is excellent. Really good stuff. I'd just like to add two things:

1) Crystal totem also earns some of its money in non-whiff punishing situations. For example, it gives you an 18% d2 - i.e. Your d2 is now equivalent to a meterless combo. That is just badass.

2) obsidian totem really shines against zoners. Zoners tend to have relatively low damage output to begin with, so being able to take 34% less damage for significant portions of the match can be game-changing.

In regards to your second point, it might be worth mentioning that some zoner's projectiles are so fast that summoning obsidian totem or any totem might be difficult. Kotal probably will never summon a totem if a jaqcui player is spamming her full auto move.

 

[KeyserSoze]

i think the defensive totem should be standard in the neutral and the damage/meter ones should only be summoned mid-Combo.

Completely disagree. Crystal totem should absolutely be used in the neutral. Don't get me wrong, I use the obsidian totem all of the time, but never using the crystal totem in the neutral is a huge
Mistake. By consistently doing this, you'd be missing out on so many buffed pokes and d2s. Also, the only thing better than activating the crystal totem mid-combo is doing so before the combo even starts

 

[UltraDavid]

Thanks for all the great tech posts so far!

Personally I feel that Sun God is very disappointing. Like you've shown, only a few of his pressure tools can tick well into the command grab. In general imo Kotal's normals and mixups support more of a midrange style, not really a grappler style, because he doesn't really have the grab range, mobility, or high/lows of other grapplers. Of course you can end combos with the grab, but even that is disappointing due to the low damage or loss of positioning from a 7% grab or the max damage grab tossing the opponent a full screen away. With the way it is now, you either deal little damage or you lose your positioning, and it takes 3 uses to get the grab up to where other characters' command grabs start out. Getting meter or life back is nice, but I don't think it's a great option to give up the damage output for a small amount of meter or life outside of particular end-game type situations. I also feel that the opponent should know that the grab will only deal real damage if it lands 3 times and understand that the Kotal player will want to bring it in early so that it's useful by some later point in the match, and will use that inclination against the Kotal player. All these things add up to imo the weakest real (ie not duckable or crouchable) command grab in MKX.

I appreciate the investigation into how much damage totems really give, that's good info. But I don't think it's fair to compare them to lv3 grab damage, since that can only come after at least 2 successful mixups or punishes. Honestly unless I need the kill, the extra few % damage from a command grab finisher seems less important than setting something up by ending w sacrifice, sunlight, meaty fireball, or even totem.

I'm not sure I think Blood God is any better than Sun God though, heh. I do think that Blood may be better v some zoners due to defense totem, but eh, I'm not convinced either way really. For now it's tough to imagine either variation keeping up with War God.

 

[Error404]

Blood God is by far the coolest thing in the game for me . But in the end of the day when you don't have basic tools like armored specials and literally have to gimmick your way to victory ... idk man . I'll be waiting for buffs otherwise i won't play it outside of online or casuals.

 

[Crayraven]

Completely disagree. Crystal totem should absolutely be used in the neutral. Don't get me wrong, I use the obsidian totem all of the time, but never using the crystal totem in the neutral is a huge
Mistake. By consistently doing this, you'd be missing out on so many buffed pokes and d2s. Also, the only thing better than activating the crystal totem mid-combo is doing so before the combo even starts

I found success in using obsidian totem while cornered in conjunction with ex god ray. It provides amazing mitigation.....if you can set it all up.

 

[Qwark28]

Thanks for all the great tech posts so far!

Personally I feel that Sun God is very disappointing. Like you've shown, only a few of his pressure tools can tick well into the command grab. In general imo Kotal's normals and mixups support more of a midrange style, not really a grappler style, because he doesn't really have the grab range, mobility, or high/lows of other grapplers. Of course you can end combos with the grab, but even that is disappointing due to the low damage or loss of positioning from a 7% grab or the max damage grab tossing the opponent a full screen away. With the way it is now, you either deal little damage or you lose your positioning, and it takes 3 uses to get the grab up to where other characters' command grabs start out. Getting meter or life back is nice, but I don't think it's a great option to give up the damage output for a small amount of meter or life outside of particular end-game type situations. I also feel that the opponent should know that the grab will only deal real damage if it lands 3 times and understand that the Kotal player will want to bring it in early so that it's useful by some later point in the match, and will use that inclination against the Kotal player. All these things add up to imo the weakest real (ie not duckable or crouchable) command grab in MKX.

I appreciate the investigation into how much damage totems really give, that's good info. But I don't think it's fair to compare them to lv3 grab damage, since that can only come after at least 2 successful mixups or punishes. Honestly unless I need the kill, the extra few % damage from a command grab finisher seems less important than setting something up by ending w sacrifice, sunlight, meaty fireball, or even totem.

I'm not sure I think Blood God is any better than Sun God though, heh. I do think that Blood may be better v some zoners due to defense totem, but eh, I'm not convinced either way really. For now it's tough to imagine either variation keeping up with War God.

The thing with the grab is that you charge it up via bnbs, you rarely have to actually do all 2 grabs required for get to lvl 3. Unless I get curbstomped, I have a L3 command grab by round 2.

Ending in L3 also gives you a meaty ex sunstone I believe.

Blood offering is a complete bill IMO. 3 hits is nothing because your opponent knows you forfeit your normals to came them with a tricky low or something similar, if you do a L3 command grab ender and then run up with a string into ex sunstone, it ends up being the exact same, if not slightly more, overall damage than doing anything into blood offering. The 3% makes up for the extra chip you would otherwise have. Sun ray out of anything other than throw or D2 is unsafe so it's rarely used.

I've always been of the mindset that Sun god doesn't care about the corner, in reality he barely gets anything that's worth it, I'd rather have my opponents midscreen where I can feint a run-in after a knockdown or bait something into a juicy combo, I don't really want to play the up close game typically because my scene is filled with top tier characters.

 

[Hellbringer]

I dont know what to think, sungod has alot more easy way to pressure or to defend with the armor sunchoke, but the damage with crystal totem is still a big difference compared to sungod.
It also really depends wich mu you play cause vs characters as dvorah for example its really risky to get totem out in neutral game.

 

[UltraDavid]

The thing with the grab is that you charge it up via bnbs, you rarely have to actually do all 2 grabs required for get to lvl 3. Unless I get curbstomped, I have a L3 command grab by round 2.

Ending in L3 also gives you a meaty ex sunstone I believe.

Blood offering is a complete bill IMO. 3 hits is nothing because your opponent knows you forfeit your normals to came them with a tricky low or something similar, if you do a L3 command grab ender and then run up with a string into ex sunstone, it ends up being the exact same, if not slightly more, overall damage than doing anything into blood offering. The 3% makes up for the extra chip you would otherwise have. Sun ray out of anything other than throw or D2 is unsafe so it's rarely used.

I've always been of the mindset that Sun god doesn't care about the corner, in reality he barely gets anything that's worth it, I'd rather have my opponents midscreen where I can feint. a run-in after a knockdown or bait something into a juicy combo, I don't really want to play the up close game typically because my scene is filled with top tier characters.

Right, you can just use the grab to end combos. I think that's probably its best use for the most part, I wouldn't go for tick grabs very often. But then you're playing just about the same game you'd be playing in Blood God, except without the extra damage or defense provided by totems. Sun God Kotal is pretty rad and his command grab is why I first looked at Kotal as a character, but I just don't think the grab makes sense as designed and as supported by the rest of Kotal's tools.

The thing about comparing damage output with crystal totem vs with command grab is that the 8-11% damage difference isn't the real concern. The real concern is, how many decisions do you need to make to win a round? With crystal totem, you have all sorts of legit different paths to winning the round in 2 decisions. Any combo can activate a totem, then many different mixups in different situations will win the round. Sun God doesn't get this benefit, it still needs 3-4 decisions to win the first round, 2-3 to win the next.

The neutral games of the two variations are basically the same, so for me the question is just how much I can get out of Kotal's excellent whiff punish game. In my view, Blood God gets more. It can kill in 2 decisions while either dealing more damage or living longer in the neutral game due to totems.

Again, though, I don't think either variation is close to War God for now. The sword just supports Kotal's game so well, with even better whiff punishing thanks to the giant overhead, better mixups up close, and better anti-pressure tools. So he has better neutral, pressure, and defensive games while still ending rounds in as many decisions as in Sun God. I figure we all pretty much agree on War as #1.

Btw I disagree about sacrifice. The buff lasts until you hit the opponent or make the opponent block, so unlike other powerups you can be sure that it'll result in you dealing extra damage at some point. If you have defense totem up, it only does like 6+% damage to Kotal as well.

 

[Crayraven]

The real concern is, how many decisions do you need to make to win a round? With crystal totem, you have all sorts of legit different paths to winning the round in 2 decisions. Any combo can activate a totem, then many different mixups in different situations will win the round. Sun God doesn't get this benefit, it still needs 3-4 decisions to win the first round, 2-3 to win the next.

Blood god doesn't have mix ups! So in that respect, Sun god has more options.

 

[UltraDavid]

Blood god doesn't have mix ups! So in that respect, Sun god has more options.

Heh, well it's more accurate to say he often has weak ones I think. But landing a combo should mean you have damage totem going for the following meaty situation, and at that point b2 overhead/f3 low/throw/parry becomes a pretty real mixup imo.

 

[Qwark28]

Right, you can just use the grab to end combos. I think that's probably its best use for the most part, I wouldn't go for tick grabs very often. But then you're playing just about the same game you'd be playing in Blood God, except without the extra damage or defense provided by totems. Sun God Kotal is pretty rad and his command grab is why I first looked at Kotal as a character, but I just don't think the grab makes sense as designed and as supported by the rest of Kotal's tools.

The thing about comparing damage output with crystal totem vs with command grab is that the 8-11% damage difference isn't the real concern. The real concern is, how many decisions do you need to make to win a round? With crystal totem, you have all sorts of legit different paths to winning the round in 2 decisions. Any combo can activate a totem, then many different mixups in different situations will win the round. Sun God doesn't get this benefit, it still needs 3-4 decisions to win the first round, 2-3 to win the next.

The neutral games of the two variations are basically the same, so for me the question is just how much I can get out of Kotal's excellent whiff punish game. In my view, Blood God gets more. It can kill in 2 decisions while either dealing more damage or living longer in the neutral game due to totems.

Again, though, I don't think either variation is close to War God for now. The sword just supports Kotal's game so well, with even better whiff punishing thanks to the giant overhead, better mixups up close, and better anti-pressure tools. So he has better neutral, pressure, and defensive games while still ending rounds in as many decisions as in Sun God. I figure we all pretty much agree on War as #1.

Btw I disagree about sacrifice. The buff lasts until you hit the opponent or make the opponent block, so unlike other powerups you can be sure that it'll result in you dealing extra damage at some point. If you have defense totem up, it only does like 6+% damage to Kotal as well.

Up until at least L2, the damage is pitiful but it still serves the function of a command grab, I'd rather "cheat" a 7% off of my opponent or straight up do an 11% command grab since by that time it serves its function. The tick grabs in this game are too fast to reliably react to, if someone does a D1 on block, I get a free command grab until they start to press buttons and I open them up for it.

Command throw is good for opening people up and getting damage you otherwise wouldn't.

A crystal totem combo will kill in 2 hits at 50-59% per but then you'd have to add in overkill damage and breakers. Sun god would be doing 38/43/46% depending on the attack landed and that, in comparison would be 76/86/92 in comparison to Blood god's 100%+ for which you need to be in a matchup where you can set the totem up.

Now, combos are obviously not the only sources of damage, you've probably thrown a sunstone, hit a couple pokes, B1s or hit a command grab or two in Sun god, armoured or not. That "side damage" is inevitable in any match and it favors Sun god more because of Blood god's overkill. I'm also aware that Blood god can use that same chip damage/projectile damage/poke damage etc to need to do even less damage as well.

Sun god can also play defensively with a reversal, there are a ton of times where I've landed ex Sun choke in situations where I don't have time or am not sure if my D4 will connect, have ran and baited buttons in situations I would have to backdash in Blood god ( and lose the punish ), have escaped pressure, anti aired crossups and used the armour to react to far reaching normals my opponent threw out. I recently won a tournament match vs a Raiden player because I baited an ex shocker twice, first time I saw that F1 wouldn't work because of him recovering and the second I ended up winning the set because I did Sun choke in the exact same situation.

When it comes to sacrifice, it's more worth it from an obsidian totem, true. But the mixup is barely there. The only time you can do an ender into blood offering and be safe is from 212 maybe, anything else the opponent will tech roll and get away or outright punish you. Then you have 3 hits or blocks to make use of that 6/10% HP invested.

B2 will do about 4-5% more damage, barely worth it overall
Throw could've been a command grab instead but it's still 4% more damage
Low is the only truly threatening option which opens up B2.
Command grab itself is trash, barely any damage extra because it's multiple hits

Overall, you spent your health and potentially oki to make reads in order to get a few % of it back. I could use that 10% to not get chipped out, play footsies with, prevent a forced breaker and more.

That's the reason my video included the low options, I was showcasing the different between the lows into ex sunstone because those are the only normals that truly benefit from blood offering IMO.

 

[Qwark28]

Heh, well it's more accurate to say he often has weak ones I think. But landing a combo should mean you have damage totem going for the following meaty situation, and at that point b2 overhead/f3 low/throw/parry becomes a pretty real mixup imo.

What would you parry that you can't outright punish on block?

 

[Crayraven]

What would you parry that you can't outright punish on block?

Yep. Which is why parry isn't good.

 

[UltraDavid]

What would you parry that you can't outright punish on block?

Well of course there are some moves that are safe enough so that Kotal can't punish them, but on top of that it's rare to be able to punish with f2. I def don't think parry sucks!

 

[Khaoz77]

I'm more in favor of Blood God more than Sun God simply because as @UltraDavid stated, if you play the matchup well enough, you can end the match VERY early. Sun God in my experience is a scurb killer variation. Anyone who doesn't know the Kotal matchup very well gets blown up by Sun God, those tick throws really do mess people up.

As for Blood God, I look at it as a variation that carries extreme risk, and would only use it if I feel that I can beat my opponent instead of the character. Since Kotal relies on a footsie, whiff punishment type of style, I don't really have to worry about going in, I can just play my game and reap the benefits of the totems if my game is solid enough.

As for Blood Offering, I only use this in the corner when I feel that I have conditioned my opponent well enough to where he won't be blocking a F3. Then again though, Blood Offering is designed to be kind of a round ender in my honest opinion. It would be best to use this exclusively when you have a life lead.

Blood God/Sun God is a struggle though, because we have to bait, punish, pressure, and out play way more consistently than others. I do have hope for these variations though, because they will evolve in conjunction with us evolving as Kotal players.

Question, does anyone else feel that Kotal is a character that has a strong mindgame meta? With moves like Blood Offering, Sun Ray, and even the Blood God variation in its entirety, these things can make players think very differently.

 

[Crayraven]

Well of course there are some moves that are safe enough so that Kotal can't punish them, but on top of that it's rare to be able to punish with f2. I def don't think parry sucks!

Ex parry doesn't suck, its "ok". But why would you waste a meter on ex parry when you can use it for something else? Its a matter of value and most of all practicality. There isn't any situation were using parry puts you at a distinct advantage over block. Normal parry is bad.