Klassic Tower/(Very) Hard AI breakdown

[Juxtapose]

Wow, great detail. Your success is pretty good for not playing Hard often. The AI being a scripted program gives you an advantage as a player because you can somewhat learn its tendencies. The button-reading the AI gets kind of equals the equation. Your advantage comes in things like switching up the first hit of your attacks in the second round (maybe kombos that start with 1 or 4 for round 1, kombos that start with 2,3 for round 2). You'll get more hits in to even things out, but having this trade-off allows the AI to be unpredictable. In MK9, you could use certain patterns to always win on Very Hard. In MKX, you can't even do that on Hard. If you couple in the lack of lag, instant matches and unpredictabilty, its pretty much why I play single-player more than online.

Whether or not it will help you against online opponents, it won't hurt. When playing AI, you kind of go into a "mode" that you can feel and human opponents are so different that you'll feel it right away in an online match. You'll be able to switch out of that mode.

I don't really play single matches, I'm usually trying to perfect the klassic tower for every character (8 brutalities, no losses). Every character is a different game and I get so much actually playing that I love it. I hope you continue to play it sometimes, I would love to get a match online with you though, I'm sure you'd destroy me, but maybe not.

Thanks man, and I will keep at it; I'm not a quitter . My goal is to complete a Klassic Tower run on Hard with no losses. My best is I think two or three loses, all against Corrupted Shinnok.

Things I like about the Hard AI is that it can pressure you, mix-up (though based on reading you), and corner trap you nicely similar to a human player. It can also do some strong damage combos, so in a certain sense, it does feel like playing a very good opponent. My problem with it is that its input reads happen too much for my liking, making, as you mentioned much earlier in this thread, so much of a character's moves worthless 'cause they're easily punished and the AI will do so constantly, unlike a human opponent. I wish it would start doing proper "reads" after you do something a few times, as opposed to instantly, more like a human player. That would force you to adapt and try different mix ups and give said mix ups a chance. Now, can Block anything easily enough.

Make no mistake though, I'm not using this for Online training, as Online, with lag, input delay, and other factors, does not and can not function for proper competitive play. Online is a place to go to screw around with buddies or randoms, but that's it as proper fundamentals simply don't apply.

That's why I also much prefer playing the AI as opposed to Online like yourself, and once I finally unlock that Revenant Liu Kang skin (about 7 more Ranked wins to go), I likely won't touch Online much outside of, as I mentioned, screwing around with buddies. Sadly I'm not able to do much of an Offline scene, so the AI is where it needs to be for me for the most part.

I'd also love to play some matches with you. What platform are you on? I'm on PC.

I'll also continue to update this thread with my own findings through various runs. If you do have the time, I'd love for you to try some Single Matches and let me know your thoughts. There's no question the Hard AI in it is easier and seems to have more "faults" than the Tower AI, but I figured you'll be able to understand that better since you've been doing far more AI pattern crunching than I.

 

[Juxtapose]

Just did another Klassic Tower Hard run, with eight continues used this time.

Had to use one against Spectral Ermac, my first opponent. Had to use a second against Flame Fist Liu Kang, my second opponent. Had to use another against Warlock Quan Chi (I believe my fourth or fifth opponent), and a fourth against Dragon Fang Goro.

I then needed four continues against Corrupted Shinnok; sadly. _Almost_ had him on my second attempt, but nope.

 

[KeyserSoze]

Yes.

I play Very Hard AI towers constantly.

I will be contributing to this thread. My goal is to beat classic towers on very hard with no matches and/or rounds lost with every character in the game. So far, I have successfully done it with Relentless Jason, Slasher Jason, War God Kotal, Sun God Kotal, and Hunter Predator.

Btw, the AI is free to Hunter's traps.

 

[Juxtapose]

Did another run, and more or less did better this time. Had to use eight continues again, but six were against Corrupted Shinnok. Almost had him in two of the fights. Sigh.

Lost one to Vicious Ferra/Torr, my third opponent, and one to Nimble Reptile, my eighth opponent.

But seriously, can someone tell me how to deal with Corrupted Shinnok on Hard? I've asked this a few times over the months and no one has been able to properly help me.

A few things I've noticed is usually after a hard knock down on him, crouching is best since his flame projectile will go over you unless Enhanced. D4 seems to be the best opener for the Round as well. Running usually has him use his flame projectile and shut you down.

 

[OzzFoxx]

Did another run, and more or less did better this time. Had to use eight continues again, but six were against Corrupted Shinnok. Almost had him in two of the fights. Sigh.

Lost one to Vicious Ferra/Torr, my third opponent, and one to Nimble Reptile, my eighth opponent.

But seriously, can someone tell me how to deal with Corrupted Shinnok on Hard? I've asked this a few times over the months and no one has been able to properly help me.

A few things I've noticed is usually after a hard knock down on him, crouching is best since his flame projectile will go over you unless Enhanced. D4 seems to be the best opener for the Round as well. Running usually has him use his flame projectile and shut you down.

OK Jux, here's a breakdown on Corrupted Shinnok. You really need to stay in his face. Don't ever "wait" for him. Everytime you knock him down, run towards him and jump over his head and land a jump punch into another combo. However, if he has meter, it is likely he will catch you in air through an EX-wakeup throw. This is OK though, it uses his meter without the ability to kombo. If you get caught far away, you should risk a teleport kick (expecting the fire beam) and throw your sais if he manages to block it (which means his punish could wiff cause you're still in air).

However, the biggest reason for failure is when you are knocked on the ground and he's standing right next to you waiting for you to wake up. When you wake up close to him, he will either start a kombo with a A) low kick, B) overhead kick or C) his throw. To alleviate this problem, always wake up crouch-blocking. If he starts with the A) low kick, you'll block it and need to immediately release down to block the rest of the combo standing (which contains an overhead right after the low kick). If he starts raising his leg in the air, this means hes going to B) overhead kick you in which case you need to poke with 1 (which you have plenty of time to do). If you don't think you can poke in time, just release down to stand block the kick (tiny punish window). Finally, if he tries C) the throw, you will be crouching and it will wiff and you can full punish. The throw attempt on wake-up is rare though.

You will get a lot of crouch-pokes in. If you hit him with one, you can usually get him in a kind of poke-vortex. Keep poking and half will hit, half will be blocked but he will keep taking it. He will eventually back dash to get away from the pokes. From here, he will either run back in to repeat the poke-fest, or jump in from sweep distance to smash your face into the ground. If he does the latter, stand-block on reaction then full punish (pretty large punish window).

Finally, only use safe attacks. This way you'll be able to block his punish-attempt which will always come. Just use the same decision tree that you use on wake-up. Immediately block low, then poke if you see his leg starting to rise above your head. Hope this helps

 

[Juxtapose]

OK Jux, here's a breakdown on Corrupted Shinnok. You really need to stay in his face. Don't ever "wait" for him. Everytime you knock him down, run towards him and jump over his head and land a jump punch into another combo. However, if he has meter, it is likely he will catch you in air through an EX-wakeup throw. This is OK though, it uses his meter without the ability to kombo. If you get caught far away, you should risk a teleport kick (expecting the fire beam) and throw your sais if he manages to block it (which means his punish could wiff cause you're still in air).

However, the biggest reason for failure is when you are knocked on the ground and he's standing right next to you waiting for you to wake up. When you wake up close to him, he will either start a kombo with a A) low kick, B) overhead kick or C) his throw. To alleviate this problem, always wake up crouch-blocking. If he starts with the A) low kick, you'll block it and need to immediately release down to block the rest of the combo standing (which contains an overhead right after the low kick). If he starts raising his leg in the air, this means hes going to B) overhead kick you in which case you need to poke with 1 (which you have plenty of time to do). If you don't think you can poke in time, just release down to stand block the kick (tiny punish window). Finally, if he tries C) the throw, you will be crouching and it will wiff and you can full punish. The throw attempt on wake-up is rare though.

You will get a lot of crouch-pokes in. If you hit him with one, you can usually get him in a kind of poke-vortex. Keep poking and half will hit, half will be blocked but he will keep taking it. He will eventually back dash to get away from the pokes. From here, he will either run back in to repeat the poke-fest, or jump in from sweep distance to smash your face into the ground. If he does the latter, stand-block on reaction then full punish (pretty large punish window).

Finally, only use safe attacks. This way you'll be able to block his punish-attempt which will always come. Just use the same decision tree that you use on wake-up. Immediately block low, then poke if you see his leg starting to rise above your head. Hope this helps

This is golden @OzzFoxx, thank you kindly for the detailed breakdown.

One problem I was having is that every time I'd run in, he'd still mash me, but I haven't tried cross ups as I found them generally not effective against the AI in this game. Perhaps that's not the case here since he's a "boss," so I'll give it a whirl next time. I'd jump and then do my 1,2,3 combo listed above. Normally does around 34%, though I think Corrupted Shinnok takes less damage just as Shao Khan did.

For getting caught far away, I find Teleport Drops tend to get blown up. What I've been toying with, with some success, is to simply Ball Roll under his projectile fire beam. If it's not enhanced, this usually works. Usually.

And you're right, when he hard knocks me down, his reaction on wake up is killing me. He almost always blocks my EX Ball Rolls, and then punishes. If I just Block, he tends to do the Overhead or Low, depending on the exact counter to what I'm Blocking. I'll definitely try the poke game more with him. You find Mileena's D1 better than her D3 or D4?

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

ah kung lao and erron black brutality throws come to mind

+tanya and takeda for sure

 

[Harlequin969]

I tend to play on Endless tower. Do you know what the change in difficulty vs opponent number is? I usually get bobbed somewhere around low twenties when I do it and normally it's because of my own mistakes.

 

[OzzFoxx]

I tend to play on Endless tower. Do you know what the change in difficulty vs opponent number is? I usually get bobbed somewhere around low twenties when I do it and normally it's because of my own mistakes.

I think at 16 it reaches medium, then around 20 it reaches hard. Its funny cause though cause its actually a gradual increase in difficulty so when you do lose, you're caught thinking, "how the f*** did I lose when I haven't had any difficulty up until now?"

 

[Harlequin969]

I think at 16 it reaches medium, then around 20 it reaches hard. Its funny cause though cause its actually a gradual increase in difficulty so when you do lose, you're caught thinking, "how the f*** did I lose when I haven't had any difficulty up until now?"

Do it as many times as I have and you start to feel the level up. I prefer it cause I hate corrupted Shinnok more than anything. But I guess I'll start trying out regular arcade mode on hard to see if I can really level up as a player. I also lack a local scene or good WiFi so this is the best I got.

 

[OzzFoxx]

This is golden @OzzFoxx, thank you kindly for the detailed breakdown.

One problem I was having is that every time I'd run in, he'd still mash me, but I haven't tried cross ups as I found them generally not effective against the AI in this game. Perhaps that's not the case here since he's a "boss," so I'll give it a whirl next time. I'd jump and then do my 1,2,3 combo listed above. Normally does around 34%, though I think Corrupted Shinnok takes less damage just as Shao Khan did.

For getting caught far away, I find Teleport Drops tend to get blown up. What I've been toying with, with some success, is to simply Ball Roll under his projectile fire beam. If it's not enhanced, this usually works. Usually.

And you're right, when he hard knocks me down, his reaction on wake up is killing me. He almost always blocks my EX Ball Rolls, and then punishes. If I just Block, he tends to do the Overhead or Low, depending on the exact counter to what I'm Blocking. I'll definitely try the poke game more with him. You find Mileena's D1 better than her D3 or D4?

Yeah, if you haven't learned the wake-up game against him, it should be the first thing you learn. In fact, its your best chance of opening him up. Its the only guaranteed method of putting the pressure back on him. You have plenty of time to decide if you should poke him, so don't try to make the decision at the perfect frame. Just keep calm and wait for that leg to rise. During the poke-vortex, you can't really go from poke into pressure/kombo because you don't know if the poke is going to land and by the time you do, its too late to pressure. However, when you see his leg rise on wakeup you know that your poke will land so you can go into pressure immediately after.

OH - AND KEEP YOUR CONTROLLER CONNECTED VIA WIRE. Against CS, that extra 1-2 frames makes a big difference on those split second reactions.

 

[Juxtapose]

I tend to play on Endless tower. Do you know what the change in difficulty vs opponent number is? I usually get bobbed somewhere around low twenties when I do it and normally it's because of my own mistakes.

That's the exact point that I usually wash out, around the 20th to 22nd opponent.

 

[Juxtapose]

Yeah, if you haven't learned the wake-up game against him, it should be the first thing you learn. In fact, its your best chance of opening him up. Its the only guaranteed method of putting the pressure back on him. You have plenty of time to decide if you should poke him, so don't try to make the decision at the perfect frame. Just keep calm and wait for that leg to rise. During the poke-vortex, you can't really go from poke into pressure/kombo because you don't know if the poke is going to land and by the time you do, its too late to pressure. However, when you see his leg rise on wakeup you know that your poke will land so you can go into pressure immediately after.

OH - AND KEEP YOUR CONTROLLER CONNECTED VIA WIRE. Against CS, that extra 1-2 frames makes a big difference on those split second reactions.

Thanks again, I'll update with how I do after a few tries.

And I play the PC version of the game, and have a Hori Xbox 360 Gem Pad Ex. It's only wired .

 

[DOOMSDAY-15RUS-]

your right 1,1 or 1,2 is good, i tryed it with wrestler Jax, and it's very easy you can spam 1,2,4 special grab and he can't do nothing even if he block the string he takes the grab, and if he don't block it you just do 1,2,4 BF2 or full combo in corner

but doing many brutalities and some fatalities I still got 1 600 000
have no idea how to get more points I lost only 5 matches against cassie and corrupted shinnok

 

[OzzFoxx]

Do it as many times as I have and you start to feel the level up. I prefer it cause I hate corrupted Shinnok more than anything. But I guess I'll start trying out regular arcade mode on hard to see if I can really level up as a player. I also lack a local scene or good WiFi so this is the best I got.

Trying to beat arcade ladder without a loss with every character has been so f***ing fun dude, every char is a different game. Lately I've been trying to master all of the run-cancel chars. (Raiden thundergod, JC a-list, D'Vorah swarm queen, Scorpion hell-fire, jax heavy weapons,

your right 1,1 or 1,2 is good, i tryed it with wrestler Jax, and it's very easy you can spam 1,2,4 special grab and he can't do nothing even if he block the string he takes the grab, and if he don't block it you just do 1,2,4 BF2 or full combo in corner

but doing many brutalities and some fatalities I still got 1 600 000
have no idea how to get more points I lost only 5 matches against cassie and corrupted shinnok

The difference between you and 1700000 is the no-losses points (which turns into ((10000 + 25000) * 1.75) = 61250. Add about 10 x-rays in there for (5,000 * 10 * 1.75 = 87500) and you'd prolly be in the top 100. You're going to need a couple flawless victories too if you want to reach top 50. It would be much cooler if it awarded for things like 2-round victories, more variable life leads, no meter usage, etc...

 

[MadeOfMetal]

nice thread,

 

[Juxtapose]

Eleven losses this time, seven against Corrupted Shinnok. I even broke my rule, as on the second loss against him he performed his Fatality on me but I kept going. Right after, my seventh loss overall, he did his Fatality yet again.

Using Teleport Drop against his Fire Attack is a bad idea, as you still get hit with it when you come in. In many kombos I found Low Pounce would miss when it would connect on many other opponents. This cost me matches and I'll only use High Pounce against him from now on. I need to practice cross ups against him, as they were somewhat effective.

My first loss was against Master of Souls Ermac. I did excellent in the first round, and then in the second round on the AI decided to start input reading me like crazy; he was my second opponent.

My second loss was against Mournful Kitana, and similar deal. Did excellent first round, and then the input reading was insane. I always get hit by her Throat Slice though, I'm a sucker for it. She was my sixth opponent.

My third loss was against Shotgun Jacquie Briggs, and she was my eighth opponent.

My fourth loss was against Imposter Shinnok, and he just owned me. Can't recall if I even took a round.

Of course, outside of Corrupted Shinnok, once I lost and re-matched they stopped input reading as much and were crazy easy.

 

[Juxtapose]

In addition to trying to improve with Mileena, I think I'm going to learn and try another character or so to see how that works out.

 

[Juxtapose]

Did another run tonight, and I think I'm calling it quits.

Lost to Ninjutsu Scorpion, my 5th opponent, who just out played me. That was fine, and I also got to see the Kove Stage Brutality that I'd never seen before. Broke my rule and decided to keep going because I had toyed more with pokes and felt I was improving there.

Lost to Full Auto Jacqui Briggs, my seventh opponent, a crazy close match, and I screwed up an input when it was last hit wins in the Final Round and so lost. My fault.

I was having a great time up until Goro.

Lost to Kuatan Warrior Goro as the AI was on full input read. I didn't matter what input I did, what mix up I did, it roboticly countered me almost perfectly every time. No matter what I did, I couldn't get anything going and not for lack of trying.

Lost to Necromancer Shinnok three times due to the same exact deal. It got a little less perfect at being a robot each time, and on the fourth attempt I finally got him. But I was pretty frustrated at this point.

I lost to Corrupted Shinnok about three times as well, and called it quits for the night without beating him.

I truly wish there was a difficulty between Normal and Hard for the Tower, as this is not fun.

I disagree with you, @OzzFoxx , there's no way the Hard Klassic Tower AI is a good way to train as it doesn't remotely play like a real person. It would be different if it adapted to you after you do something a few times, but constant reads on all your inputs instantly, while possible, is not probable for a human opponent. That and the fact that you can't perform some of your combos because the AI will easily counter/punish (for Mileena, F3 is a horrible starter here) just makes it a bad training option.

I'll be sticking to Normal for Tower runs for now, at least with Mileena, though sadly those are no challenge at all. I will pick up a different character soon and give it a go, in case Mileena just isn't the best choice for me here. Possible. I'm going to go with Kitana, likely Assassin and maybe Royal Storm.

At least there's the Hard AI in Single Fight, which robots less and is still quite a challenge. That I see as more a proper way to train (and as I mentioned somewhere above, perhaps this is done on purpose; where Single Fight simulates better competitive matches and Klassic Tower simulates the cheap AI from the Arcades of old. It does feel like I'm fighting the Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3 AI to a degree, but still easier).

Having said all this, I truly want to thank you for all your tips and advice above. I legitimately and truly appreciate it! If you have the PC version of the game, and want to play some matches, I'd also be down.

 

[Stew Bones]

Don't know if anyone still cares about very hard tower but using kitana is probably your best bet for this as the OP mentioned

I ended up doing a lot of the 111 string and it caught them because one hit would whiff and the AI would immediately try to reversal while the last hit of the string hits for a full combo punish.

Instant air fans help as well since the AI likes to attempt to jump in but end up getting caught by fans. Floats also work well and for the most part seem safe against the AI. EX uprising fan also works well against them.


Overall this took me over a hundred tries to accomplish so patience is definitely something that is key.

Also, screw corrupted Shinnok and his chest flames.

 

[Juxtapose]

Don't know if anyone still cares about very hard tower but using kitana is probably your best bet for this as the OP mentioned

I ended up doing a lot of the 111 string and it caught them because one hit would whiff and the AI would immediately try to reversal while the last hit of the string hits for a full combo punish.

Instant air fans help as well since the AI likes to attempt to jump in but end up getting caught by fans. Floats also work well and for the most part seem safe against the AI. EX uprising fan also works well against them.


Overall this took me over a hundred tries to accomplish so patience is definitely something that is key.

Also, screw corrupted Shinnok and his chest flames.

I see you're playing on the PC version as well. For Kitana, do you figure any variation, or pretty much only Royal Storm?

 

[Stew Bones]

I see you're playing on the PC version as well. For Kitana, do you figure any variation, or pretty much only Royal Storm?

Pretty much royal storm due to better fan lift. The ass isn't really needed and for the most part won't be reflecting many projectiles because of how to AI reacts.

Assassin's dash, like the ass, won't help much except for some extra damage during combos. Parry won't work well pretty much for same reasons as the reflect. Sharpen won't do anything just cause of the AI's "reactions". Assassin is really the same just with an inferior fan lift.

Mournful I have very little experience with but I would say it wouldn't be great to use since she doesn't have access to fans which is key for the tower.

 

[Juxtapose]

Pretty much royal storm due to better fan lift. The ass isn't really needed and for the most part won't be reflecting many projectiles because of how to AI reacts.

Assassin's dash, like the ass, won't help much except for some extra damage during combos. Parry won't work well pretty much for same reasons as the reflect. Sharpen won't do anything just cause of the AI's "reactions". Assassin is really the same just with an inferior fan lift.

Mournful I have very little experience with but I would say it wouldn't be great to use since she doesn't have access to fans which is key for the tower.

Cool. I'm working on getting better on Hard, if you've been reading this thread. Hard in Single Fight is no problem, but haven't tried Klassic Tower in while. Was thinking of doing it soon.

I noticed the Klassic Tower Hard AI seems to be harder than the Single Fight Hard AI.

 

[Juxtapose]

To revive this old thread, I've been toying with Hard Klassic Towers again, and have been getting better.

One of my best runs to date:

This is the second time in history I've been able to beat Corrupted Shinnok on my first attempt.

 

[KeyserSoze]

I've beaten klassic tower on very hard with no matches or rounds lost with all 9 variations of Jason, Kotal, and Predator. Out of those 9, doing it with Slasher Jason was the easiest - I believe I've done it 5 times with him. It's also very doable with relentless Jason. With slasher, abuse killing machine and b122 as a meaty. With relentless, abuse killing machine and make sure to teleport after a blocked 111. Also, never bother using pursuit - the AI will always counter it perfectly. Always.

There is a lot of great advice in the OP.