Match-up Discussion KILLER FROST - Official Community Match-Up Discussion

[Drizzle]

Meterless vortex isn't a risk, if you time the f3 set-up meaty back dash is not an option.

I actually didn't know that. Noted.

You also have to worry about knockdown set-ups into meaty command throw, which force reversals... and you have to worry about mb.f3/b1~slide - both eat your reversals. WoWo's wake-up game is free to Frost's oki.

If you have to worry about wake-ups then it's not really free. b1 can beat wake-up spin, but if you're always MB f3'ing then that's less meter for pushblock/clash. You kind of lose clash by default anyway. It's not that your meterless vortex isn't good; it's just the fact that she has a better chance of guessing right than she does if you had spent the meter on MB grab.

Frost has better wake-up options than WoWo. That can't be overlooked. If you don't safe jump we don't have to respect your oki, slide and parry threaten your options - and if you do and we have meter we can just pushblock your safe jump set-up away.

The thing is, other than b2 (b113, 33, spin), all of her starters can lead to OTGs that force you to guess even if you block them correctly. When she does safe jump you, she can go into her normal pressure after you block the j3. It's true that the safe jump itself isn't as threatening as her oki, but you're still at neutral where her options tend to be better than yours.

So, it seems to me we don't have to respect your wake-up game, you have to respect ours - meaning you have to respect our oki, and we don't have to respect yours. Without the corner you don't have consistent momentum. We can create momentum anywhere on the screen - so what does that say about comebacks?

The thing is, at neutral your options aren't the best unless you have the life lead. Sliding will only get you so far and the rest of your approach options are more risky.

And I don't get the walking us down thing. You just admitted daggers force jumps... and daggers build meter. And while your inching forward we're building trait. If that happens, every parry is 60%+, which helps alot in the admittedly terrible b2 range scenario.

I'm saying that you'll normally just walk and duck, but if you do feel comfortable jumping daggers on reaction that's an option as well. Just like with Batgirl and her projectiles. It's true that trait is an option, though it can be checked with demigoddess.

I will admit, if the advantage is there, it's on WoWo's side. But that's only because our tools are meter dependent and yours aren't, and WoWo will force a number of pushblocks throughout the match. The way I feel about the match-up is similar to yours from Frost's perspective, if I get the health lead, you have to start taking risks that favor us.

I don't think it's really bad either. Like you said, if anyone has the advantage it's WoWo but it's slight.

Good points, I agree with a lot. Every WW I have played gives up on parrying daggers after a while, so you may be able to parry them with perfect timing...but for the sake of discussion I am going to conclude that the WW player is going to have to deal with them. The meterless vortex is a good meta game with both players receiving ample rewards for the risks that they are taking. It is the Frost player's responsibility to be clever here to get hits to convert. Let's play sometime I am sure I need to level up some in the MU, and maybe you can make me a believer about parrying daggers.

I normally don't bother parrying daggers because I don't think it's worth it. I just wanted to clarify that it is possible. But yeah, I'll add you and we can play sometime.

 

[Sultan]

If you have to worry about wake-ups then it's not really free. b1 can beat wake-up spin, but if you're always MB f3'ing then that's less meter for pushblock/clash. You kind of lose clash by default anyway. It's not that your meterless vortex isn't good; it's just the fact that she has a better chance of guessing right than she does if you had spent the meter on MB grab.

The meter thing is the real killer for me in this match-up. WoWo seems to win one of two ways;
1) she either gains early momentum somehow, corners you, and it's gg. And there wasn't much you could do once that momentum started.
2) (the one that gets me most) things seem pretty even health-wise towards the end of the match, but WoWo's winning the meter war so she'll either b2, super you, or Frost'll die a slow death with no meter for clashing.

 

[Madog32]

The meter thing is the real killer for me in this match-up. WoWo seems to win one of two ways;
1) she either gains early momentum somehow, corners you, and it's gg. And there wasn't much you could do once that momentum started.
2) (the one that gets me most) things seem pretty even health-wise towards the end of the match, but WoWo's winning the meter war so she'll either b2, super you, or Frost'll die a slow death with no meter for clashing.

I know the pain...

 

[Vak Phoenix]

IMO Martian 6 Frost 4.
Cause he jumps back after overhead teleport and if Frost tries to catch him in air he activates trait and gets you. However i love how you can destroy Martian during his teleport with iceberg, if hes entire body is in the ground and just the peak of the head is still going down he gets on the iceberg or even the slide. But yeah its a pain in the ass match up.

IMO WW 5 Frost 5
Easy to predict Wonder Man and hard to cross up. I personally parry her all the time. But Frost's D2 is good in this match when HE tries to cross you up. However i try not to jump or move forward... just stay back zone a bit and then when the bitch charges into me with her fist i D2 it on block. I dont know... i dont really have problems with him or ZOD. MB F3 works perfectly against Diana... when he's trying to wake up.

IMO Cyborg 7 Frost 3
I just cant...... NB... MB NB... Air NB..... Air MB NB.... Grapple... i cant get that bitch... i just wanna cut his grappling rope and hope that he falls on an iceberg.

IMO Flash 6 Frost 4
Simply cause of his up close stupidity with D1,2 into Kicks and Trait. The only option for me is to zone in this match and hope that he will get on my parry or if he messes up and i catch him.

 

[xKhaoTik]

IMO Flash 6 Frost 4
Simply cause of his up close stupidity with D1,2 into Kicks and Trait. The only option for me is to zone in this match and hope that he will get on my parry or if he messes up and i catch him.

This is 5-5. Frost has been the perfect hitbox to make a lot of his pressure option whiff and then she can punish. A lot of his specials can be parried so if you are expecting a lightning charge, you can either block low and punish or Parry. D12 LK is the end of his pressure then you can start your frame trap with d1.


And I know I said frost doesn't have any 7-3s, but idk man, I've been playing DD and Shazam players lately and those MUs seem baaaadddddd lol

 

[RiBBz22]

This is 5-5. Frost has been the perfect hitbox to make a lot of his pressure option whiff and then she can punish. A lot of his specials can be parried so if you are expecting a lightning charge, you can either block low and punish or Parry. D12 LK is the end of his pressure then you can start your frame trap with d1.


And I know I said frost doesn't have any 7-3s, but idk man, I've been playing DD and Shazam players lately and those MUs seem baaaadddddd lol

I think Shazam is a solid 6-4. I play MashPotatoTower alot and he trolls me and says it is 5-5 even though I beat him lol. But he has some good "get out of stuff" tools in the MU that helps him. Plus he has a boat load of swag. Noobe beat me when we played a while back so I probably need to play the DD match better. I feel it could be 7-3 at best, and 6-4 at worst. She really has perfect tools almost to deal with him. You can parry the shit out of him including shoulder on reaction (even from up close because the hit of it is delayed a bit), punish MB supernova with dash in slide or slide slide, and her zoning is effective in this MU without DD traited up.

In trait it is a bit tougher. What are you guys doing to get rid of DD's trait? I like to do the following.

Any block string followed by parry

d1 barrage into eventual parry

My favorite is F113 d1 111 slide parry. If I do the entire setup successfully and the parry hits into full combo I am like...

 

[xKhaoTik]

I think Shazam is a solid 6-4. I play MashPotatoTower alot and he trolls me and says it is 5-5 even though I beat him lol. But he has some good "get out of stuff" tools in the MU that helps him. Plus he has a boat load of swag. Noobe beat me when we played a while back so I probably need to play the DD match better. I feel it could be 7-3 at best, and 6-4 at worst. She really has perfect tools almost to deal with him. You can parry the shit out of him including shoulder on reaction (even from up close because the hit of it is delayed a bit), punish MB supernova with dash in slide or slide slide, and her zoning is effective in this MU without DD traited up.

In trait it is a bit tougher. What are you guys doing to get rid of DD's trait? I like to do the following.

Any block string followed by parry

d1 barrage into eventual parry

My favorite is F113 d1 111 slide parry. If I do the entire setup successfully and the parry hits into full combo I am like...

Yes parry is a godsend in this MU lol. EVERYTHING gets parried (except for lows and air attacks of course), but man, I kinda feel bad parry his most useful stuff like MB venom, 33, d1, etc. If only she was able to parry earth shaker lol.

But against his trait, I usually parry then charge my trait up, then mash 1133 slide lol. I do mash 111 or f113 sometimes but the fact that she gets a lot of parries in this MU means free TA.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

This is 5-5. Frost has been the perfect hitbox to make a lot of his pressure option whiff and then she can punish. A lot of his specials can be parried so if you are expecting a lightning charge, you can either block low and punish or Parry. D12 LK is the end of his pressure then you can start your frame trap with d1.


And I know I said frost doesn't have any 7-3s, but idk man, I've been playing DD and Shazam players lately and those MUs seem baaaadddddd lol

yeah w shazam i start match with a parry when they go for b2,3 and idk but daggers seem to do a LOT OF GREAT STUFF cuz its 2 hits. so yeah daggers iceberg work amazing for me against Shazam. DD? well parry everything? LOL

AND YOU FORGOT SINESTRO! LOOOOL THATS LIKE 10-0 FROST

 

[teh_kingdunch]

This is 5-5. Frost has been the perfect hitbox to make a lot of his pressure option whiff and then she can punish. A lot of his specials can be parried so if you are expecting a lightning charge, you can either block low and punish or Parry. D12 LK is the end of his pressure then you can start your frame trap with d1.


And I know I said frost doesn't have any 7-3s, but idk man, I've been playing DD and Shazam players lately and those MUs seem baaaadddddd lol

I play the DD MU a lot with a local player and I think it's really bad. KF has an answer for everything and he can't pressure you on knockdown, so even if he knocks you, it doesn't matter. Against trait I like to do 1133 if he dashes into me,(if it hits it's a free follow up, if he blocks it pushes him back), parry or j1 over venom Also because Venom gets parried, he will mostly dash and sweep/throw or jump d3 or raw earth shaker you. You can catch all of those with a slide or d2 or well timed iceberg. Supernova is not an option, you can slide on reaction. All his WUs are unsafe as well. I think it's a solid 7-3.

I've played many really good Shazam players ( online yeah -_-) and I've never lost more than a couple of games. The zoning is strong, just don't get too predictable with daggers mid screen or he can teleport grab you. If he gets too predictable with teleport on knockdown, you can either slide to catch the backwards one or jump back 3 for the other one. You can get trait easily as well, Torpedo is punished with d2, b2,3 with 111 and you can parry the 2,2 pressure. Could be 6-4, but I think it's most likely 7-3.

It's probably just me, but I don't think KF has a bad MU. I just think she has an answer for every situation and being patient rewards her greatly. Yeah it's hard to get in on some characters and her footsies are not good, but she has a slide and godlike F3 for a reason. The only factor could be the stage, but she has great vortex/trait setups with interactables on most stages.

 

[xKhaoTik]

Lol I remember my "KF doesn't have a bad MU" days.

I'm in my emo stage tho so she isn't even top 10 in my eyes.

 

[RiBBz22]

Lol I remember my "KF doesn't have a bad MU" days.

I'm in my emo stage tho so she isn't even top 10 in my eyes.

That was back before some of the DLC was released. I don't think we had a handle on the Cyborg MU back then either. She doesn't have many bad MU's and can compete with anyone in the game IMO. You have been so emo lately, it is ok for a character to have a few bad matches lol. I think that after the top 4 or 5 characters there is a tier below that is about 8 characters long that are roughly on the same level of dirty. It is hard to straight out number rank this game, tier classes make more sense. In my eyes she is def in the top 10 convo at worst, and can beat anyone in the game.

 

[xKhaoTik]

That was back before some of the DLC was released. I don't think we had a handle on the Cyborg MU back then either. She doesn't have many bad MU's and can compete with anyone in the game IMO. You have been so emo lately, it is ok for a character to have a few bad matches lol. I think that after the top 4 or 5 characters there is a tier below that is about 8 characters long that are roughly on the same level of dirty. It is hard to straight out number rank this game, tier classes make more sense. In my eyes she is def in the top 10 convo at worst, and can beat anyone in the game.

I agree lol. Just let me have my moments.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

can i just say this? im not kissing any asses but i would not be this good if it was not for Ribbz Khaotik Runway Mafia and Darksparton! so thank you guys for you work and effort. I swear when mk 10 will come out ill be contributing as well.

 

[RiBBz22]

I agree lol. Just let me have my moments.

We all have to keep each other in check, we are family

 

[teh_kingdunch]

How do you guys deal with BA's divekick in general? We can't punish it consistently and there is also a MB version. Isn't it better to try and snap him out of the air? I find ji1 to be really good and beat his divekick most of the time. You can do it on reaction and it's not THAT hard. It will beat it a lot and you can follow up with 11b2 xx slide, f112 xx freeze mb, j2 2 for the vortex. Sometimes you both will whiff or trade, but it's all good if he spends a bar.

 

[xKhaoTik]

How do you guys deal with BA's divekick in general? We can't punish it consistently and there is also a MB version. Isn't it better to try and snap him out of the air? I find ji1 to be really good and beat his divekick most of the time. You can do it on reaction and it's not THAT hard. It will beat it a lot and you can follow up with 11b2 xx slide, f112 xx freeze mb, j2 2 for the vortex. Sometimes you both will whiff or trade, but it's all good if he spends a bar.

She gets a free 50/50 on block and a mistimed dive kick gets punished. I'd rather play it safe than risking eating a MB dive kick. Its pretty easy to mbf3 it too

 

[RiBBz22]

How do you guys deal with BA's divekick in general? We can't punish it consistently and there is also a MB version. Isn't it better to try and snap him out of the air? I find ji1 to be really good and beat his divekick most of the time. You can do it on reaction and it's not THAT hard. It will beat it a lot and you can follow up with 11b2 xx slide, f112 xx freeze mb, j2 2 for the vortex. Sometimes you both will whiff or trade, but it's all good if he spends a bar.

I try to MB f3/b3 it on reaction, and what Khaotik already said about handling it on block. You still have to catch it pretty high to punish it though, so I normally just go for the 50-50 on the non-MB one. The punish is b1u3 and you have to do it really quick after you block it. When I am in the area BAs' like to dive kick the most I usually just try to space it out so it whiffs and whiff punish with F3, or if you are too close you can use jump back 3 or 1. J1 is good too you are right, but the problem with j1 for me at least is that it will trade alot, and you lose that trade 5 to 10% which sucks. J3 trades less for me and it wins the trade by 11-10 if it does end up trading.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

How do you guys deal with BA's divekick in general? We can't punish it consistently and there is also a MB version. Isn't it better to try and snap him out of the air? I find ji1 to be really good and beat his divekick most of the time. You can do it on reaction and it's not THAT hard. It will beat it a lot and you can follow up with 11b2 xx slide, f112 xx freeze mb, j2 2 for the vortex. Sometimes you both will whiff or trade, but it's all good if he spends a bar.

i go for MB F3

 

[RiBBz22]

What are everyones' opinions on changing Deathstroke to an even matchup? I was discussing the MU in the DS forum last week and I think at this point it is pretty even. Both characters have really good options against each other and aren't too limited by one another. I used to play DS as a secondary before Batgirl came out and ended up dropping him, but I have been messing with him more lately. Wanted to hear what you guys thought.

 

[teh_kingdunch]

What are everyones' opinions on changing Deathstroke to an even matchup? I was discussing the MU in the DS forum last week and I think at this point it is pretty even. Both characters have really good options against each other and aren't too limited by one another. I used to play DS as a secondary before Batgirl came out and ended up dropping him, but I have been messing with him more lately. Wanted to hear what you guys thought.

I could agree with that. It's true that we can punish his zoning anywhere on the screen, but we can't zone either. Daggers just get lgs and iceberg is punishable by quickfire. We can charge trait relatively easy tho, cuz if we bait him, he eats it. He has a great j3, good post slide game and nice meterless dmg. His WUs are something to keep in mind as well. The oki is good, but vs KF it doesn't matter. His F3 is great, but slide goes under it, plus we have parry.

 

[RiBBz22]

I could agree with that. It's true that we can punish his zoning anywhere on the screen, but we can't zone either. Daggers just get lgs and iceberg is punishable by quickfire. We can charge trait relatively easy tho, cuz if we bait him, he eats it. He has a great j3, good post slide game and nice meterless dmg. His WUs are something to keep in mind as well. The oki is good, but vs KF it doesn't matter. His F3 is great, but slide goes under it, plus we have parry.

Yeah, for DS post F3 on block isn't as good for DS because of parry. He will probably be following up with more lows. His jump back 3 is really good and can give Frost problems if used correctly. His safe option on a blocked slide is d1 into sword spin which costs 2 bars to send you completely full screen and without meter it is infinitely easier to get in. DS players have to respect Frost's reversal on gunshots because of the strong punish and guessing game that follows it up. Basically, DS limits dagger spamming and KF limits gun spamming. DS out-footsies KF in terms of normals, but overall I think footsies are even because of Frost's defensive options and whiff punishing. Damage is obviously in Frost's favor. If I had to tip the MU in one direction it would definitely be towards Frost.

 

[Vak Phoenix]

yeah Kf vs Ds 5 5 id say

 

[teh_kingdunch]

Against Cyborg's Grapple on WU when he tries to avoid our meterless vortex, we can raw u3 him out of it and follow up with 11b2 xx slide, 22 xx freeze mb, j2 2 for 32%, or just another u3 to setup the meterless vortex again. The timing is a bit strict, but it's not that hard. U3 is also -4 so it's safe if he just blocks. When we make him afraid to use it, we can return to our meterless vortex and his other options are very limited and unsafe.

 

[teh_kingdunch]

Soooo... against MMH's oh teleport, what do you guys think about dashing forward, TA, u3x9, 11b2 xx slide, 2 xx freeze mb, j2 2 for 63%? I think it's amazing that we can get a TA for a punish!

 

[RiBBz22]

Soooo... against MMH's oh teleport, what do you guys think about dashing forward, TA, u3x9, 11b2 xx slide, 2 xx freeze mb, j2 2 for 63%? I think it's amazing that we can get a TA for a punish!

Damn this punish isn't even that hard if you are scouting the teleport and have trait all ready. Good find. I like how when you do the U3 he is kind of still just standing there and not even all the way recovered.