Tech Killer Frost - Corner Reverse Wake-Up Tech

[@MylesWright_]

Don't worry this is not new tech because Myles Wright said that all the Killer Frost tech has already been discovered.

I wasn't even needed to shatter the dreams of all the Killer Frost players. The progression of the joy from Killer Frost now being Top 5 to her dropping instantly back down to bottom 10 in this thread was somewhat entertaining. It is still however nice to see people attempting it innovate tech for a character that was purposely left barebone by the developers

 

[ForeverKing]

Command grab is unblock able. If you can't escape it, we can just keep doing it.

So Batman is fucked in the corner against Killer Frost? If I wake up slide or wake up super it goes to the corner, if I wake up parry I get grabbed. If I do nothing I get grabbed. WTF

This can change matchup numbers

 

[Rickyraws]

So Batman is fucked in the corner against Killer Frost? If I wake up slide or wake up super it goes to the corner, if I wake up parry I get grabbed. If I do nothing I get grabbed. WTF

This can change matchup numbers

Yeah I was thinking this, and wanted to talk to you about it. I would say the only thing you could try to do is delay or not delay the wake up to screw with the Frost player's timing, but slide itself is so punishable that a whiffed grab can still punish it. But I haven't actually tested this against Batman, I've been busy playing Dark Souls so if there's something we're missing we can still discover it. If not, that would suck BIG time for Batman. Literally forced to eat the grab till his health bar is depleted? Yeah that's gonna tip the MU scale.

 

[Sultan]

So Batman is fucked in the corner against Killer Frost? If I wake up slide or wake up super it goes to the corner, if I wake up parry I get grabbed. If I do nothing I get grabbed. WTF

This can change matchup numbers

It's not as bad as it looks. The particular set-up your referencing works on 2 stages on the right hand side. And you can delay your reversal to escape. The sweep set-up works on almost every stage on the right but it's not loopable without spending a meter - it's also escapable with a delayed reversal.

 

[ForeverKing]

It's not as bad as it looks. The particular set-up your referencing works on 2 stages on the right hand side. And you can delay your reversal to escape. The sweep set-up works on almost every stage on the right but it's not loopable without spending a meter - it's also escapable with a delayed reversal.

It doesn't matter if I delay the reversal or not because slide is so bad on whiff you have like 5 seconds to punish.

Batman confirmed a bill

 

[xKhaoTik]

So is this viable or nah?

 

[Sultan]

It doesn't matter if I delay the reversal or not because slide is so bad on whiff you have like 5 seconds to punish.

Batman confirmed a bill

When you delay slide kick it comes out in the proper direction and beats the meaty flash freeze command throw...

 

[Sultan]

So is this viable or nah?

Yep, it's a very interesting mix-up... but it's complicated because it's not what we thought. I'll explain why it's good when i'm not on my phone. I've been working on an eloborate write up that fleshes it out

 

[Rickyraws]

It doesn't matter if I delay the reversal or not because slide is so bad on whiff you have like 5 seconds to punish.

Batman confirmed a bill

Oh I just realized it works on two stages. One of them is Atlantis.


A certain someone's favorite stage.

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEELLLLLL.............................................................

 

[Sultan]

TLDR Version:

1) This IS NOT an inescapable reset, delayed reversals beat an early timed meaty Flash Freeze, while early reversals beat a delayed timed meat Flash Freeze. This needs to be fleshed out more. I haven't had the time these past few days. It's my Sunday project.
2) It's character specific - I'm not sure of the final number... 7 comes to mind. Many (most?) characters aren't even worried about it. I'll compose a finalized list of victims soon.
3) It sweep version works on the right hand side of every stage, except Watchtower Bridge (where it works on the left)..... The Flash Freeze -> Flash Freeze reset works on 2 stages: Batcave and Atlantis.


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For this write-up we'll ignore Watchtower Bridge and Themyscira Port - both of these stages are odd and basically deserve their own breakdown.


Point 1

Batcave Lab and Atlantis have unique interactions with their right corners that allow "the loopable reset." None of this cool stuff works on the left corner of any stage except Watchtower Bridge - which I'll explain in another post.

The "loopable" set-up: flash freeze -> meaty flash freeze: did they reversal? no! do it again!.. did they reversal? yes! punish with flash freeze... rinse and repeat. This is character specific to VERY FEW characters whose only viable reversals have enough whiff time to guarantee a raw flash freeze. Batman and Zod are most notable.

Many characters whose reversals do not beat this set-up - Frost, Joker, Lantern, Superman, Lobo - are still susceptible to a punish of some sort that combos into the Flash Freeze. Some can reversal super, some can't. All of them can Clash, while Batman and Zod cannot because of the nature of the reset.


HOW TO ESCAPE

However, as I stated in the original post that started this thread, delayed reversals are probably immune to the reverse wake-up thing and should be tested. Sure enough, they are. If you delay your reversal, with say Batman, your slide kick will come out in the proper directions and beat the meaty flash freeze. So, hope is not lost.


Point 2

Most other stages you can still perform this reset off of a sweep. For some reason the corner interactions on most stages make it so the Flash Freeze hard knockdown isn't exploitable by this tech, like it is on Batcave Lab and Atlantis.

What this means is, if you have the meter to spend, you can end your corner combo in sweep(d3) (there are many options for this). After which you perform a meaty Flash Freeze that has all the same effects as the above set-up. If the meaty Flash Freeze connects, you need to spend a meter to loop the set-up.

Once again, you can beat this with a delayed reversal. So, no, it's not a perfect trap. Thankfully/Unfortunately, depending on your perspective.


!!!!!POINT 3!!!!!!

Anyone who took the time to read through this thread knew everything stated above. What hasn't been discussed yet is that there seems to be a 6-8 frame window for timing this set-up. You don't have to be perfect to time the unduckable, unjumpable, unbackdashable Flash Freeze, there are a few different timing's that work.

Meaning? The reversal window varies depending on the Flash Freeze timing. If I perform my Flash Freeze as early as possible, you need to perform you reversal as late as possible. If I perform my Flash Freeze as late as possible, you need to perform you reversal as early as possible (and it seems like there's atleast one other timing where the opponent can only beat the Flash Freeze if they time their reversal somewhere in between early and late - this needs more testing to confirm).

And if I don't Flash Freeze at all? If I just block, or f3/b1u3 or jump or whatever?

It's a mix-up, a really really good one.

 

[RiBBz22]

It's a mix-up, a really really good one.

Yeah, I need to start working this in my game. I feel like this is the sort of thing that you are going to have to do early in a set to make your opponent respect it and mind F them before they even consider it as an option. No one is probably even thinking about anything besides the 50-50 until this hits them and they will be like oh crap yeah new tech and probably come to read about it more in the forums...

 

[Sultan]

So, to confirm some stuff in regards to my last post:



There are certainly at least 3 different wake-up timings in the game, if not more.

I recorded Frost p1 performing a sweep into a meaty command throw, while also mashing 1.
I was controlling Frost p2. There were 3 different scenarios:

1) I performed an early black ice and it came out in the proper direction and beat the flash freeze.
2) I performed a late wake-up, and black ice was reversed. When Frost p1 performed a 111 string, I could block it
3) I performed a wake-up timed somewhere between the above: my black ice was reversed, but I could not block the 111 string.



Also, I managed to record a different timing with sweep into meaty command throw where the earliest and in-between timed wake-up black ice were reversed. Only the latest timed black ice came out it the proper direction. Properly timing the late black ice that beat the set-up felt like a 1-2 frame window, I was only able to perform the latest timed reversal twice in the 20 minutes or so where I messed with this --- that's pretty huge.

 

[Rickyraws]

So, to confirm some stuff in regards to my last post:



There are certainly at least 3 different wake-up timings in the game, if not more.

I recorded Frost p1 performing a sweep into a meaty command throw, while also mashing 1.
I was controlling Frost p2. There were 3 different scenarios:

1) I performed an early black ice and it came out in the proper direction and beat the flash freeze.
2) I performed a late wake-up, and black ice was reversed. When Frost p1 performed a 111 string, I could block it
3) I performed a wake-up timed somewhere between the above: my black ice was reversed, but I could not block the 111 string.



Also, I managed to record a different timing with sweep into meaty command throw where the earliest and in-between timed wake-up black ice were reversed. Only the latest timed black ice came out it the proper direction. Properly timing the late black ice that beat the set-up felt like a 1-2 frame window, I was only able to perform the latest timed reversal twice in the 20 minutes or so where I messed with this --- that's pretty huge.

I always figured there were at least 2 WU timings. And just like the j1 unblockable setup, I'm sure practice can provide getting the timing down.