Phosferrax
Original Liu Kang cop.
So I got the chance to play Cyber v Piercing Milenna offline this weekend. Do people still think Milenna wins the MU? Because I can't see it.
Even. Thats how i see it
If anyone wins I think it's him.
I agree. I just dont get to play that match up offline. So my online xp says even. (although *fart noise*)
Id be down
U on now?
No
i wish
Let me know when you're on broNo
Why not? Where does he win/have an advantage? She has better tools in the matchup imo.
Idk if its good, but it doesn't hurt him. If he breaks cyber gets a chance to regain his composure without the other running in like crazy. And if the other player breaks cyber can use his long normals to possibly catch them being defensive and capitalize. It doesnt really hurt commando either. Nor does it help
Play CT lol.
How? Her anti zoning tools are all unsafe and can't reliably be done on reaction, Kano has a d4 that gives Milenna problems, and he can happily contend with b12. Unless Milenna is committing to unsafe approaches, Kano has the upperhand in the neutral game, and her sai is easily reacted to.
Yooooo, there changes to the mechanics in the beta? Braker that burns both your and opponent's stamina is great news!!! Is there a list of changes that the beta brings?
I didnt say 50/50...Lol
Who cares if she's unsafe? It's called risk/reward, and it's in her favour because she does more damage. Like UsedForGlue said, she's only as unsafe as the player, so a good Mileena player won't even be throwing out her anti-zoning tools unless necessary. Why does she even need to rely on them anyway? I don't think she's going to be too worried about a little chip. Roll going under knives is still a major problem, it being unsafe doesn't matter if it's hitting him and opening him up. Kano's D4 is a problem for most characters, don't see how that somehow makes it worse for Mileena than anyone else. Mileena isn't just spam B12 in neutral all day and if you're playing with someone who does then no wonder you think it's winning.
She doesn't get bigger damage off her mixups or raw roll, only from a punish, so it isn't in her favour to begin with. It's an equal playing field so it can't be considered in her favour just because she has them.
Don't you realise that in order for her to utilize her offense, she has to bet the bar of meter and bet her health? She can't have mixups and safety, that's not how she works. So this great offense you're talking about is as big a risk for her and the reward she gets, resulting in not-so-great offense. I can't see how it could be considered in her favour when it is a straight 50/50; either she gets combo'd or Kano gets combo'd for roughly the same damage, and she needs meter to do it.
You constantly argue with people about how Cyber is about zoning and space control and how it's good enough to be competitive in this game, but now it doesn't matter because it's just a bit of chip? She can't tele kick on reaction, nor can she ball roll, so if she wants to use the tools then she has to just throw them out on a read. Tele kick is terrible risk/reward for her and roll nets the same damage as she gets punished for. This then boils down to Kano controlling the pace of the neutral game, and doing what he does best; frustrating the opponent into over reaching. Knife beats sai all day and she can't jump at him, so she has to either play like a nutter and deal with the risk, or play the ground game where Kano can contend with her.
You realise you're doing just that? Roll going under knives is not a problem. It's a full punish for something she can't do on reaction, how is that a problem? If you're constantly getting hit by roll in the neutral the fault lies with you and not the MU. How can you say I'm bending points to promote my argument if you're going to make statements like
whilst also saying this
Have you ever actually played against a Milenna offline? You seem to be under the impression that she can do this stuff on reaction, which would matter, but she can't. Roll being unsafe does matter, don't be ridiculous.
The problem is that Milenna doesn't have anything to contend with the d4 except roll, and, hopefully the point is being made by now, it's unsafe and in this instance, I don't think it can be used a reactionary whiff punisher enough of the time to. D4 low profiles b12 and beats all her pokes at that range. Again, you can't acknowledge his d4 is a problem and then pretend like it isn't because other character find it troublesome as well. That's what makes MU's, 'what does my character have that is a problem against your character?' Just because other characters find it hard to deal with doesn't make it universal either, different characters have different tools which means they can deal with it to varying degrees.
This is a generalization and lazy point to make, which isn't even true. Johnny Cage is exactly what you're talking about here, yet Cyber does fine against him. Aren't you also of the opinion that Cyber beats Cassie? How can that be as she has a good mixup game and damage? Is Saltshaker on your account?
Yes it is a problem but it is equal. Again, it can't be done on reaction, risk/reward is equal, and it is the only offensive option she has to beat a poke after b13, 11, 112, 2f4, 32 and b31. You can't try to make it sound like it's a good thing for her because it isn't a better option. Sure you'll get hit by a couple of stray rolls some times, but when she takes 35% midscreen or 49% in the corner because she got ansy on wakeup or didn't want to deal with a poke after a blockstring, it doesn't look so good for her. If she backdashes, who cares.
Average 33% meterless vs 28% meterless and 37% for a bar vs 33% for a bar is even? Ok then.
And? So does Kano. All she has to do is sit there and wait for an opening, if Kano wants to open someone up he has to take risks himself. It's not like Mileena struggles to build meter, let's not pretend she's not going to have it half the time. I never said she had mixups and safety but you're putting way too much emphasis on her frame data. She does have safe strings she can use. She doesn't need meter to punish, as you say roll goes under some of his strings.
Oh look, another person who completely misses the point. Of course it has to be me arguing with others and not them arguing with me. Ok. I don't argue that it's good enough to be competitive in this game, stop putting words in my mouth, I just say that there are some matchups where I feel he could possibly have an advantage. There are several matchups I wouldn't consider playing him over someone else and this is one of them simply because the way Mileena works slows down the way Kano wants to play. I always talk about how he's not going to do that much chip to you in zoning but of course you miss that part because it doesn't help your argument. She can ball roll if she's spacing herself properly. Mileena should be putting herself in a position where roll is a risk so the Kano player has to respect it as an option. Tele kick is horrible risk reward? How? If it lands, full combo. If Kano goes to punish then, what, a mid 20s anti-air punish? Yowza. Yes it's risky but it should be. Kano frustrates the opponent into overreaching? With what? What has Mileena got to be so worried about in this matchup? Cyber's offence isn't that good. Yes his strings are safe but he's minus on almost everything. Knife beats sai all day? That's a trade to lose, her sais do more damage than your knives. All getting hit by a knife does on a trade is help her recover quicker to throw another one. If she's close enough she can instant jump 1 and you're not anti-airing that on reaction.
Lol how is that not a problem?! She has the ability to completely avoid a tool you need to use to build meter for a full combo. That is always going to be a problem, whether you can do it on reaction or not. Reads breh. I'm not constantly getting hit by roll in neutral, my point is that the threat of that is always there and roll being unsafe doesn't just make that irrelevant. Yes, I have played it offline, and this is why I know that although some of Mileenas tools are unsafe they are still a threat. You assuming what I think isn't progressing this argument any further, I've never said she could do it on reaction. I said it didn't matter if it hits, not that it didn't matter at all. Don't be ridiculous yourself.
F4? F3 (yes I know it's slow) since it low crushes? B2? I thought these would be obvious lol. You're right, D4 does low profile B12 but are you telling me that you're going to D4 on reaction to B12? Yeeeeeeaaaahhhhh not going to happen... I can and will, it's like saying "oh you can't jump at Cassie in this matchup because of flip" even though she has flip against everyone and it is a problem against everyone. Doesn't just suddenly make it any worse for a specific character. D4 is a problem against pretty much everyone, does that mean he wins almost every matchup? Of course not, which is why I think you're overexaggerating how few options Mileena has in neutral.
I don't know if I'd say Johnny is the kind of character that matches that description, his mixup game is kinda meh. I mean more like Quan Chi, Cassie, etc. And they do win more matchups than Cybernetic. Well done for completely misreading what I said, read it again:
I'm saying characters like that win more matchups in general. Cybernetic just happens to deal with Cassie well due to her lack of anti-zoning tools which Mileena does have which is why she fares better. Stop making stupid conclusions and at least make sure you're talking about the right thing.
Risk reward is slightly in Mileenas favour as I mentioned earlier. Even if it is equal then how does Kano win? It would be even. That's the whole point of 'even'. If you poke after any of those strings and she blocks it it's a good thing for her, now you're minus enough for her to start her offence. Cybernetic will never open you up for 49% in the corner if you're playing someone who knows the matchup, what a hyperbole. How do you expect to open someone up in the corner with nothing but highs mids and lows? If you're hitting them then it's their fault for not playing the matchup properly. At least F3 is grab immune and low crushes despite its speed so you can actually open someone up with it to land Mileena's high corner damage. 49% isn't even a talking point for Kano because against people who play the matchup properly that shouldn't even be a risk.
I don't believe she has absolutely no options against Kano's D4, I gave three possible ones to Phos.