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Kano Matchup Discussion Thread

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
I realize that there might be a matchup thread already in this forum, but the point of this thread is to discuss matchups to make the Matchup Chart as accurate as possible.

The Matchup Chart thread:
http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?3075-Mortal-Kombat-(2011)-Matchup-Chart

When you discuss or list what you think the matchups are, please do so in alphabetical order. Also, they should be listed in either whole numbers or .5 notations.

The current Matchup Chart for Kano is as follows:
6-4 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
5-5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac
xxx vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax
4-6 vs Johnny Cage
5-5 vs Kabal
xxx vs Kenshi
6-4 vs Kitana
4-6 vs Kung Lao
5-5 vs Liu Kang
5-5 vs Mileena
4-6 vs Nightwolf
5-5 vs Noob Saibot
6-4 vs Quan Chi
5-5 vs Raiden
xxx vs Rain
5-5 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor
6-4 vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva
6-4 vs Sindel
xxx vs Skarlet
4-6 vs Smoke
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
4-6 vs Sub-Zero


Agree? Disagree? DISCUSS!
 
kano is a top class character ,and he has an answer to most moves :6-4 vs Baraka

6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
5-5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac
xxx vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax
5-5 vs Johnny Cage :i think it's an even match after the shadow kick armor
5-5 vs Kabal
xxx vs Kenshi
6-4 vs Kitana
4-6 vs Kung Lao
5-5 vs Liu Kang
6-4 vs Mileena :kano can beat mileena in the ground and he has the up ball to punish her tele.
6-4 vs Nightwolf :night wolf can be dominated by kano's strings specially f3 b2
5-5 vs Noob Saibot
6-4 vs Quan Chi
5-5 vs Raiden
5-5 vs Rain : rain has a good wake up game and great mix ups
5-5 vs Reptile
5-5 vs Scorpion :the armored spear can be a nightmare in this match up
5-5 vs Sektor
5-5 vs Shang Tsung :he can out zone kano and keep him out ,however if he doesn't have the meter kano got more edge
6-4 vs Sheeva
6-4 vs Sindel
xxx vs Skarlet
4-6 vs Smoke
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
4-6 vs Sub-Zero
 
Well these are all in my opinion, but I believe his matchups look something like this:
6-4 vs Baraka
? vs Cyber Sub Zero- I don't have enough match up knowledge to call this, but it is definetly not 6-4 in Kano's favour. CSZ has the upper hand in this match.
5.5-4.5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac
xxx vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax
4.5-5.5 vs Johnny Cage
3.5-6.5 vs Kabal -If Kabal tries to rush Kano down then this matchup is around 5-5, but if Kabal starts zoning Kano from distance this matchup becomes horrible.
xxx vs Kenshi
6.5-3.5 vs Kitana- I actually think this has to be Kano's best matchup.
4-6 vs Kung Lao -The Kung Lao's I have played have tended to be not very good, so I'll leave this one to someone else, though 4-6/3.5-6.5 sounds pretty reasonable.
5-5 vs Liu Kang- Not enough knowledge, left it as it was. I think this may be slightly in Kano's favour though.
5-5 vs Mileena
4.5-5.5 vs Nightwolf - Nightwolf has the advantage, but this isn't an impossible match to win
6-4 vs Noob Saibot
6-4 vs Quan Chi
5-5 vs Raiden- Not sure left it as it was.
xxx vs Rain
4.5-5.5 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor- Not sure left it as it was.
6-4 vs Shang Tsung- Not sure left it as it was.
6-4 vs Sheeva- Not sure left it as it was.
6-4 vs Sindel
xxx vs Skarlet
5-5 vs Smoke - I think if played carefully, this match isn't bad for Kano,just don't go spamming knifes.
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
4-6, maybe 4.5-5.5 vs Sub-Zero- This matchup really isn't that bad imo.
 

D.Barrett

Pad Warrior
6-4 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
5-5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac
xxx vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax
4-6 vs Johnny Cage
4-6 vs Kabal (I believe Kabal out does Kano in both zoning and rushdown. Its a very tough match if you get baited)
5-5 vs Kenshi (Using straight ball here and there you can convince him to use SC more, which u can just Air ball over. In this range you have kenshi guessing)
5-5 vs Kitana
3-7 vs Kung Lao (Dont know what to do against this guy yet)
5-5 vs Liu Kang (well timed up balls during his rushdown is key. dont be braindead)
5-5 vs Mileena
6-4 vs Nightwolf (Dont throw knifes, and get in his face. nuff said)
6-4 vs Noob Saibot (Kano can air ball all of Noob's projectiles. And rushing him down can be made possible if you play smart)
6-4 vs Quan Chi
5-5 vs Raiden
5-5 vs Rain (Dont throw knifes, rush down but keep his wake up and EX Roundhouse in mind)
5-5 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion (Dont be afraid of hellfire, the cost of a baited jump can hurt you thanks to EX Spear)
6-4 vs Sektor (Missiles are too slow to stop air ball. Stay in range for instant air ball, play this like the Shang match up)
6-4 vs Shang Tsung (Cut off his zoning game and he's yours)
6-4 vs Sheeva
6-4 vs Sindel
5-5 vs Skarlet (Air ball her knifes from the right range. Bait and punish with some rushdown)
5-5 vs Smoke (Dont throw knifes, bait and punish)
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
4-6 vs Sub-Zero
 

Massive Kano

Black Dragon
You can't just declare people wrong and yourself infallibly accurate with no explanation and expect to me taken seriously, son.

If you disagree with anyone's numbers, make an actual case for yours.
 

Massive Kano

Black Dragon
Riiiiight.

You might want to tone it down a bit. Keep trolling this hard and I can't imagine you'll tolerated for long.
 

D.Barrett

Pad Warrior
Spooky said:
Trolling? How can you call what I'm typing trolling? By the same logic; you are trolling.
I dont get how the Nightwolf match up is a 4-6? He isnt that tough to beat, play smart and avoid knifes, you can win without them if you have a good rushdown game.
 
WRONG.

Here are the REAL numbers. When I say "real," I mean the most accurate if you were to make a match-up assumption like this one.

7-3 vs Baraka
5-5 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
7-3 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac
5-5 vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax
6-4 vs Johnny Cage
4-6 vs Kabal
4-6 vs Kenshi
6-4 vs Kitana
4-6 vs Kung Lao
6-4 vs Liu Kang
4-6 vs Mileena
4-6 vs Nightwolf
4-6 vs Noob Saibot
7-3 vs Quan Chi
6-4 vs Raiden
6-4 vs Rain
6-4 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor
6-4 vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva
5-5 vs Sindel
6-4 vs Skarlet
4-6 vs Smoke
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
5-5 vs Sub-Zero
loool where this tier list comes from...is it from imaginationland? 7-3 vs cyrax? ok X'''D
 

cyke_out

Noob
The current Matchup Chart for Kano is as follows:
6-4 vs Baraka
6-4 vs Cyber Sub-Zero
5-5 vs Cyrax
6-4 vs Ermac
xxx vs Freddy Krueger
6-4 vs Jade
6-4 vs Jax
4-6 vs Johnny Cage
5-5 vs Kabal
xxx vs Kenshi
6-4 vs Kitana
4-6 vs Kung Lao
5-5 vs Liu Kang
5-5 vs Mileena
4-6 vs Nightwolf
5-5 vs Noob Saibot
6-4 vs Quan Chi
5-5 vs Raiden
xxx vs Rain
5-5 vs Reptile
6-4 vs Scorpion
5-5 vs Sektor
6-4 vs Shang Tsung
6-4 vs Sheeva
6-4 vs Sindel
xxx vs Skarlet
4-6 vs Smoke
6-4 vs Sonya Blade
6-4 vs Stryker
4-6 vs Sub-Zero
New Patch, new Match up's, I know it's still way too early and half of us don't even have the patch, but does anyone see any major changes for Kano based on all the changes.

The main ones I'm worried about is Reptile, Noob, KL and SZ. Noob got alot of buffs to make him a threat at any range.
 
Random comments:

I'm pretty sure Kano loses to Shang now if he didn't already. Unfortunately I have yet to play a good one so this is just theory fighter, but that new EX soul steal takes away Shang's biggest weakness here.

On the flip side, being able to land real combos on Cyber Sub's parry is nice! If anything Kano may win this now - you can't throw knives but your pokes and frametraps destroy his, and parry is a much riskier way out than it used to be.

Liu Kang is somewhat similar to the above, except I'm more sure of Kano having an advantage. The main difference from CSZ is that he has no easy answer to knives without meter. Also, this is one of the matchups where Kano getting a real armor move matters most - Kang's f+12 is one of the strongest frametraps in the game and in my experience you can't even upball another f+12.

I definitely feel like he loses to Mileena, even after learning the match a lot more since Summer Jam. Good players can telekick knives and jumpins on reaction, and roll is an even easier AA. This is not good considering you don't have much of an answer to d+4 besides jumpkick xx airthrow...I've tried spacing her out and using f+3 but nope, none of Kano's strings work. Armor is pretty meaningless here, so I think this is still 4-6.

The Cage matchup improved but probably just by .5 - the f+32 nerf for him and the armor ball for you are both factors here. Again, Cage gets so much advantage from some of his strings that Kano had no options besides blocking before.

I feel strongly that even prior to this patch the Kung Lao matchup was 4-6 at worst. You own KL real, real bad in footsies - walk back to bait strings then punish with b+112, or f3b2 if you see him dashing in, etc. The main adjustment you'll have to make with good players is dealing with whiffed divekicks, but you can dash block for a big punish if you feel that out. There's also the fact that he can't spin out of f+11 frametraps. With the new patch, this is 4.5-5.5 or possibly even.

There's no way Nightwolf is 4-6, considering his only normal that outranges yours is the slow-as-hell b+2. His pressure on block is almost nonexistent, and he needs to burn meter to get out of yours. All of NW's great anti-zoning tools are a non-factor here since you want to hang out at mid-range. That said, he does quite a bit more damage than you and has a fantastic whiff punish with shoulder. This seems around even to me.

I have to imagine Cyrax will be in Kano's favor now. You can air ball bombs/nets on reaction, your pokes are better, and he has problems breaking out of pressure. This is another matchup where I hardly throw knives btw.

6-4 on Kitana seems about right to me, especially now. This is another matchup I've learned a lot about since Summer Jam, and I would love another crack at it. Knives are a threat to her iAF's, and you can ball on reaction if you see her go higher in the air.

Noob is an interesting one, as I'm not too sure if all his changes will affect this match much at all. Your main strengths here are (again) pokes/pressure and being able to air ball his projectiles on reaction, and none of that has changed.

Smoke ain't a 4-6. Again, it seems like people still think of Kano as a zoning character when he's really a mid-range one. Shake and smoke bomb don't make his normals faster or give them more range, so I don't see what the problem is. This strikes me as slight advantage for Kano if anything.

On the opposite end, no way is Scorpion a 6-4. Hellfire is better at stopping your approach than NW's lightning since it's faster, and spear is an awesome whiff punish. Semi-random EX teleport is also a very strong weapon against your poke game. Scorpion's buffs are also more significant than Kano's overall, particularly having a real wakeup move. I'm thinking 5-5 now.

Reptile was one of the matchups where knives mattered most, as they were your main answer to his whiffed elbow dash movement, and the patch put a big dent in that. I actually think Kano might have won this before, but no way now. Thinking 4.5-5.5...

Kano should still beat Sonya, but I'm not sure how much of a difference the EX cartwheel makes.

Raiden is definitely not even lol. He easily out-lames you, and you can't punish teleports since you don't have a divekick or a fast jab. You can't effectively pressure him on wakeup, which is a problem when all of your combos knock down. Furthermore, he's one of the few characters who convincingly outpokes you thanks to b+312, and superman is an obvious whiff punish from farther away. 4-6 at best, and only Sub is worse IMO.

Finally, Sub-Zero. EX slide. 3.5-6.5. To quote the immortal Skip Rogers, "HAPPY GAMING!"
 

cyke_out

Noob
I'm only going to reply to matches that I have decent experience with.

On the flip side, being able to land real combos on Cyber Sub's parry is nice! If anything Kano may win this now - you can't throw knives but your pokes and frametraps destroy his, and parry is a much riskier way out than it used to be.
I felt like Kano won this before the patch, straight ball punished dive kicks at any level, if anything being able to hit f+3 during his parry makes this match up worse for cyber.

I definitely feel like he loses to Mileena, even after learning the match a lot more since Summer Jam. Good players can telekick knives and jumpins on reaction, and roll is an even easier AA. This is not good considering you don't have much of an answer to d+4 besides jumpkick xx airthrow...I've tried spacing her out and using f+3 but nope, none of Kano's strings work. Armor is pretty meaningless here, so I think this is still 4-6.
Mileena is my other main, It's true she has an answer for his knives, but Kano has answers to her too. Kano beats mileena up-close. Excluding d+4, his normals are faster and better than hers. And he has much better block strings and presure, and she has no armor to get out of it. he can straight ball under air sais and up-ball is a good punish to teleport into sais. Neither of them changes too much or at all in this patch, so I feel like it's 5-5. Sure Kano can't compete at long range vs her, but like you said, he's not a zoner, but a mid-range fighter.

I have to imagine Cyrax will be in Kano's favor now. You can air ball bombs/nets on reaction, your pokes are better, and he has problems breaking out of pressure. This is another matchup where I hardly throw knives btw.
I can never give a cyrax match up for any character lowere than 5-5, he does so much damage, even with the reset gone, Cyrax can afford to make more mistakes and he only needs one mistakes from his opponent per round to gain the life lead, after that he can just turtle and force you to come to him. If Kano plays smart and doesn't make any mistakes then Kano should win, but that is a 5-5 match to me



On the opposite end, no way is Scorpion a 6-4. Hellfire is better at stopping your approach than NW's lightning since it's faster, and spear is an awesome whiff punish. Semi-random EX teleport is also a very strong weapon against your poke game. Scorpion's buffs are also more significant than Kano's overall, particularly having a real wakeup move. I'm thinking 5-5 now.
I agree, this is a 5-5, hellfire can be air balled or straight balled and armor on ex ball will help kano break out of the vortex. but Scorpion has a wake-up game now and ex takedown has armor too to get out of kano's pressure

I agree with everything as well as this

Finally, Sub-Zero. EX slide. 3.5-6.5. To quote the immortal Skip Rogers, "HAPPY GAMING!"
fuck sub!
 
Liu Kang is somewhat similar to the above, except I'm more sure of Kano having an advantage. The main difference from CSZ is that he has no easy answer to knives without meter. Also, this is one of the matchups where Kano getting a real armor move matters most - Kang's f+12 is one of the strongest frametraps in the game and in my experience you can't even upball another f+12.
Low fireball wins trades with knife. It lowers Liu Kang's hitbox enough that the knife misses completely.
 
You're right about Mileena, but the problem is getting that pressure started. That damn d+4 shuts down almost everything. The Mileena I've played the most offline is very good at reading jumpins and reacting with teleport into full combo, so that's taken away my best approach. Not sure what else to do at this point...

As for Cyrax, we'll see what happens. I've heard through the grapevine that he may still have some form of the resets - if that turns out to be practical then he wins it slightly.

mcpeanuts: Good point! I find that if you can establish the right rhythm for the projectile game (i.e. make sure he's not throwing a fireball first) you at least shouldn't be hit, so while still good it's not comparable to CSZ divekick.


Also I forgot to mention Kabal. The armor ball shouldn't make much of a difference - it's probably most useful for his pressure. Kano still gets zoned out hard here, still looks like a 4-6 to me.


BTW, the more I've thought about this the more I'm leaning toward Raiden as my new secondary character to learn. He seems to cover Kano's bad matchups the best. Might also pick up Sonya specifically for other Raidens, as I think she's the strongest counter for him...
 
Oh, to add to what I was saying earlier about Mileena, here's a tournament match of me vs. Derrick Legend (the player I was referring to earlier):

http://www.twitch.tv/dandyj/b/294767056 (go to ~21:50 in part 4)

I've since learned about stuffing her wakeups with d4, which should help a lot. It's getting in I'm still not clear on.

EDIT: Wow I forgot how much stuff was dropped in this one, and how much less he used d4 than I remembered. My first MK9 match of the entire day but still! Also FYI the patch makes punishing her roll easier - f+1, 212, dash j.kick-airthrow works like a charm. That should also be good for punishing normal teleport, though EX still only gets you an upball.
 
Alright, trying to put together some matchup numbers now in preparation for the community chart:

vs. Kung Lao: 4.5-5.5 (f+1 being useless hurts bad here, particularly since Kano's d4 isn't the greatest)
vs. Raiden: possibly 5-5 (less recovery on knife + more recovery on teleport would allow you to safely zone him)
vs. Kabal: 4-6
vs. Cyrax: feels like 4.5-5.5 to me but possibly 4-6 (reminds me a lot of Vanilla Sagat vs. Dhalsim - Kano has all the right tools for this match, but Cyrax does twice as much damage from an average combo and unlike Sagat can set up that damage from a distance)
vs. Reptile: 4.5-5.5 or 5-5 (need to get a better idea of how much EX slide matters)
vs. Johnny Cage: 4.5-5.5 (see KL description - you can't win a matchup entirely on zoning in this game unless you have a good air projectile or something else unique like ice clone, or unless the other character's offense isn't scary enough to make up for getting zoned the majority of the time. That last statement definitely doesn't apply to KL or Cage!)
vs. Sub-Zero: 3.5-6.5
vs. Kitana: 6-4 (getting back the old knife is real nice against iAFs, and if she starts doing non-instant AFs you can straight ball on reaction. her normals being so slow is also a problem)
vs. Mileena: 4.5-5.5 or quite possibly 4-6 (teleport owns your zoning, no answer to d4 besides jumpkick and hope you don't get AAed with teleport or roll, can't stuff her wakeup moves anymore with the new patch, and even if you do get in your best frametrap is worthless against her)
vs. Jax: 5-5 or possibly lower (need to see how much new patch matters here, haven't played a good Jax yet)
vs. Smoke: 5.5-4.5 or maybe 5-5
vs. Liu Kang: 5.5-4.5
vs. Nightwolf: 5-5
vs. Scorpion: 5-5
vs. Sektor: 4.5-5.5 (again can't use your best frametraps, he prob wins projectile trades w/ the knockdown, not sure how practical iATU is on knives)
vs. Sonya: 5.5-4.5
vs. Noob Saibot: 5-5? (again haven't played one since new patch, he still can't really get out of pressure but idk)
vs. Shang Tsung: no idea, 5-5 as a *very* rough estimate (both characters have strong pressure and gained viable armor moves)
vs. Ermac: 5.5-4.5
vs. Cyber Sub-Zero: 5.5-4.5
vs. Sheeva: 6-4
vs. Baraka: 6-4
vs. Stryker: not sure but less than 6-4 (don't know how the zoning goes but at least he has a great armor move)
vs. Quan Chi: 6-4
vs. Sindel: 5.5-4.5 (zoning is rough but EX ball helps and she gets mauled up close)
vs. Jade: 6-4 (upball goes right through her during EX glow and it's hard if not impossible for her to punish, lol)
vs. Skarlet: 5.5-4.5
vs. Kenshi: 4-6 (you lose the trades and don't have much of anything special to get in)
vs. the other DLC characters: don't even know enough to throw out a guess

Any edits are in BOLD.
 

cyke_out

Noob
So raiden, kabal, sub and Kenshi are the worst match-ups for Kano, with the majority being mostly even and like 6 matches with Kano favored. Do you think some of those unfavorable matches are basically unwinnable to where a kano player might want to counter-pick.
 
I do think Cyrax could be just as bad as the players get smarter..that character can win without having the best understanding of his zoning thanks to the resets. If players can combine all of that then I could see 4-6.

And I do feel it would be good to learn another character for those matchups, which is why I personally have been working on Raiden lately. I did some basic math on this awhile back, and the standard Western tournament format (2/3 games, double elimination) makes matchup disadvantages even larger. In a 4-6 matchup, you actually have a 3.5-6.5 chance of winning such a set, while 3-7 matches become almost 2-8's. 6.5-3.5's become 7.3-2.8's or so, IIRC.

As an aside, this is why I think character balance is easily the most overrated aspect of fighting games - there is literally no such thing as a balanced FG in our format.
 
Raiden may potentially be even with the new patch. I plan on going to Console Combat this Sunday so hopefully I can get some matches in with that. That said, the discovery that a number of characters can completely avoid Kano's best poke/frametrap by crouch blocking makes some matchups worse than I had thought. Notable examples would be KL, Cage, Mileena, Jax, & Sektor. I don't think it's as big a deal for Kitana or Reptile since those matches are much more about the knives, and it doesn't affect Sub a lot since that match is mostly you getting shut down by ice clones. Not going to change the numbers just yet, but I will when I get a better idea of how these matchups work.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Skarlet is another one of these characters but I don't think it's a huge problem for her either. I've finally gotten to play a couple games against a good Skarlet, and my early read on this match is that Kano wins it by outzoning her badly. You crush her in the projectile trades and can easily air ball daggers on reaction. Just be mindful of her teleport...even online, upball is a pretty easy punish on it, so offline I imagine you can consistently get 212 for a full combo. Skarlet definitely has some things in this match if she gets in - f+43 owns your midrange pokes, and her red dash high/low is pretty good and can be forced from a number of moves. She's definitely no Cage or KL though, so I'm thinking 5.5-4.5 for Kano here.
 

BEENEEWEENEES

Thou shalt be slain!
i disagree with the kenshi matchup; kano doesn't have the toughest time getting in and can punish rising karma with a straight ball and, up close, can punish tk shoulder with an upball. kenshi is terribly weak to crossover pressure as well.

i also disagree with the cyrax analysis; the moment you see him open his chest up for a bomb/net, you can ex ball to punish, shutting down his zone game completely. along with being able to upball his teleport and cyrax's weak poke game, i don't see why this matchup is anything other than 6-4 for kano.
 
Kenshi is definitely one of the matches most subject to change. Also pretty sure Kano still beats Noob, but the patch leaves me unsure of the number.

As for Cyrax, teleports don't matter much anyway. He can scare you off your distance game with his own zoning, and Kano's pokes get him up close where Cyrax likes to be. I don't see much of a point in EX ball since you absolutely have to hold onto 2 bars at all costs. Basically my thought is that without the resets Kano would have slight advantage, but they turn the matchup around to Cyrax's favor. Oh yeah, and I'm not sure what Kano would have to deal with wakeup AA grab (b+112 maybe?).
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
BEENEEWEENEES said:
i also disagree with the cyrax analysis; the moment you see him open his chest up for a bomb/net, you can ex ball to punish, shutting down his zone game completely. along with being able to upball his teleport and cyrax's weak poke game, i don't see why this matchup is anything other than 6-4 for kano.
Wasting super meter on anything but combo breakers is suicide against Cyrax. His damage output is so high that I strongly recommend saving all bars for combo breakers. Even if you have over 60% of life, the moment you get launched the round may be over without breakers. Cyrax should not teleport versus Kano, by the way. That is not a reliable strategy unless the Cyrax player is begging to get smacked by an up ball. Read Fundoc's anaysis on the match up above. I thought it was very accurate.

I would also like to add to the match up chart that Freddy vs. Kano is probably 6:4 in favor of Freddy.