General/Other - Takeda Kano B1 abuse vs Takeda

[Alright RyRy]

i'm 100% certain you failed reading class in grade school, that or you just did not read one thing said in this thread, you literally just listed two options that are not viable. you USE GORO you can watch me do b21 and just ex punchwalk for FREE and you are saying something about having ONE string that has the farthest reach in the game but don't say ONE peep about the negatives of the move? Fuck.My.Life.

I passed reading, I watched about 1 minute of your video and turned it off, and yes I play Goro a character that has the absolute worst Mid Starting Strings but I'm not complaining about it, I am working around it.

Say NRS gave you a 6 frame down 1 would that change the character completely? No. Your close up game is terrible just like Quan.

90% of the roster has a downfall as of right now, with it being something as simple as bad pokes to have No range on your main launcher (Goro).

Guard breaks and D2s are options because that is where your character thrives. So what Kano has 1 move that beats you, thats what you call a bad matchup, Goro seems to have a lot of them.

You are a good player, work around the obstacles and please do not complain.

 

[Grashi]

So, I've been reading through this thread for a little bit now and about 4 pages in when the walls of texts turned into just insults. So tell me if this has already been stated.

1) kung jin has a very similar issue with just 11 and d1.

2) Kano, as a character not a variation, doesn't have a fuckton of safe mids to open with in the first place. He can start pressure, but kinda has to do something unsafe eventually. So what if b1 trades 10 times. .75% chip would need you to sit there for eons before it actually equated to the 12% or so you get from trading an uppercut..

3) if its that big of an issue, changing it wouldn't ruin the character. Raise its hitbox slightly so it can be low profiled. But you'd have to do the same for other moves of this nature that will present themselves.

4) and this one may have been stated. Teleport isn't viable with reversal window? If you do it between strings wouldn't kano just 1(1) instead :\

 

[Rude]

spacing is not my issue, ask anyone who has played me. i beat CDjr in a tournament set while he was using jax, do you think we were playing up close? but in the Kano MU its different when the character can zone and have braindead rushdown. also getting in takeda is one of the easiest things to do in this game, how many characters have safe ways to approach with armor or moves that advance from half screen? this game is rushdown oriented, look at how fast jacqui and sonya are when running, with multiple options to get in. in the long run when people learn how to exploit takeda's many holes and get in really easily what will become of the character? do you want a shitty low tier character or one with ONE fucking additional option to safely escape some bullshit while not completely nerfing kano's B1?

Nevermind. Apparently Kano has infinites i wasn't aware of.

God damn it.

R.I.P. Kano B1.

Never allowed to live.

 

[M2Dave]

Consecutive b+1s are a block infinite combo on a few characters. I have already messaged Paolo. He is aware.

When I get home, though, Zyphox will get blown up hard for being a hypocrite.

 

[Sultan]

This is just my perspective on everything I've read here:
1) It's unfair to pin the nerfing Kano bandwagon on Zyphox, he never once sincerely asked for that. He's asking for a buff to Takeda so he can better escape b1 pressure.
2) Nerfing b1 would be disaster for cybernetic Kano across the board, and helpful for a few characters in 1 match-up. That's an imbalance. The goal is balance. Stop suggesting this.
3) Complaining about Kano's corner game should be disregarded. Don't get cornered, or make sure you have the resources to get out of the corner when you get there. A character's corner game is supposed to be oppressive.
4) If Quan Chi really can't get out of b1 pressure, no way, no how, then maybe Quan needs a buff more than Takeda.
5) Would Takeda be broken with a fast enough d1, considering his other character strengths? No? then I'm for the buff. Yes? then we need to rethink this.
6) Don't be so quick to assume you've tested EVERYTHING in this match-up. Be thorough, because if there ends up being an out that nobody considered (and shit like this happens all the time) and Kano get unnecessarily nerfed or X character gets unnecessarily buffed, I might actually weep.

And most importantly:
7) The game is so young. Be patient. We should be focusing on the game as is right now, playing it out, letting shit rock for at least another month or two, because we don't know where things are headed in the long-run meta. It's okay if you're getting bodied by bullshit for the first 3 months or so of a game's lifespan, it's okay if you can't win a few locals or the first couple majors due to imbalance, because NRS will start patching this game soon, and it's better if they start balancing things out when a clearer picture emerges. Nobody should pretend like they have the definitive understanding of situations like Takeda vs Kano's b1 right now. You never know what tech will be developed tomorrow by people grinding this shit out, you never know what exploit or os or unconventional option might rear it's head.

Please keep your emotions and egos in check and be rational, we're talking about a hobby and a passion for many, and lazy complaints and hot-headed flame wars aren't going to uplift this community or this game.

 

[Vagrant]

Consecutive b+1s are a block infinite combo on a few characters. I have already messaged Paolo. He is aware.

When I get home, though, Zyphox will get blown up hard for being a hypocrite.

I'm digging the MKX era M2Dave so far.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

I'm digging the MKX era M2Dave so far.

Dis guna b gud

 

[GGA Wafflez]

"how does he call himself a ninja"
haha

 

[TheJaquio]

Lol he has dumber stuff in commando than just that. d3 and d4 literally tick into command throw on block.

Let's be accurate here, d3 and d4 do allow tick throws on block, but you can't block confirm the cancel into grab and on hit the grab whiffs for a full combo. Risking a 30%+ combo punish just to get a 16% throw isn't what I would call a valid strategy.

Meanwhile, commando has no combos/damage to speak of, so without constant pressure into grab mixups he has nothing.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Two things:

1. b1 being a block infinite on some characters is kind of bad, but I think it mainly shows how some characters need somewhat faster normals to prevent these types of situations from happening.

2. Nerfing b1 would be an extremely lazy way to go about balancing this. Give certain characters who struggle against it like a 1 or 2 frame faster normal and thats it. Sure it means they can get out of everyone's pressure now but that just means pressure characters have to play smarter.

 

[SaJa]

Don't buff Takeda because of Kano lol. Just fix Kano's b1, don't nerf it.

 

[Zyphox]

Consecutive b+1s are a block infinite combo on a few characters. I have already messaged Paolo. He is aware.

When I get home, though, Zyphox will get blown up hard for being a hypocrite.

lol i love you dave, but i didn't compete with a character that apparently is a block infinite on some characters. also thank you for at least proving me right, does kano need to get nerfed? maybe, maybe not. does takeda need a faster d1, yes. i honestly don't care what you do or say at the end of the day, i knew the risk going in what this video would do. if in the end takeda becomes slightly more viable because of my bitching and i get my back blown out to Andromeda, i'll be one happy SOB.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Let's be accurate here, d3 and d4 do allow tick throws on block, but you can't block confirm the cancel into grab and on hit the grab whiffs for a full combo. Risking a 30%+ combo punish just to get a 16% throw isn't what I would call a valid strategy.

Meanwhile, commando has no combos/damage to speak of, so without constant pressure into grab mixups he has nothing.

Yeah you can't tick throw at full range of the pokes, you have to be pretty close for it to work, and like you said, you can't confirm the block into them really, you just have to go for the tick throw, and if they eat the low poke instead of blocking it they can punish the throw animation. I use frame traps and just conditiong my opponents to block more then going for tick throws.

Commando's only midscreen combo so far is cancelling EX Kano ball, and it doesn't give tons. he has some good corner pressure, but even there it's like 40% meterless max.

@SaJa - how do you "fix" it without nerfing it? best way to balance is to slightly buff character's weaknesses if they're more prominent weaknesses then is intended or is practical.

 

[SaJa]

@SaJa - how do you "fix" it without nerfing it?

So nerf it. I don't really care as long as things go right.

 

[Zyphox]

"how does he call himself a ninja"
haha

i originally said in my first take that new era ninja's are too lazy to train on speed and rely on their gadgets like the teenager that he is, but i didn't want to offend Sonicfox

 

[FlappyDaniel]

So nerf it. I don't really care as long as things go right.

That's a bad mindset. Nerfing characters has the potential to kill characters, whereas buffing characters only makes them stronger, instead of possibly shafting another character just because of 1 character specific MU

 

[Branden Delio]

But he can teleport off the ground and appear on the other side of me like so fast omg I don't even know whats going on just gone then comes back on other side of screen from the air like ERRR MAH GAWD but when he punches me its like im NEO in the matrix I can watch his punch, move around it eat a sandwich come back duck and laugh as it whiffs bwahahahaha maybe Takeda should spend more time with Kung Lao and less time with Scorpion. #Ninjas

 

[Pakman]

Takeda and Quan aren't the only ones who get boned by this in the corner. Also, a lot of folk are posting but don't fully comprehend the situation that is being spoken about, some even citing Sub zero's ice klone as a comparable example (it's not) or "well duh that's your fault for not spacing him out" etc - please, when you get a chance, I urge you to set it up in training mode and see what you can do against repeated kano b1s cornered. Then you'll see first hand what utter nonsense this is.

They should just give it a little more push back on block thereby preventing the block infinite. Problem solved.

 

[SaJa]

That's a bad mindset. Nerfing characters has the potential to kill characters, whereas buffing characters only makes them stronger, instead of possibly shafting another character just because of 1 character specific MU

So gives every characters who have trouble against Kano's b1 a 6f poke. LBSH, only Kano players are going to cry for a fix. This is a fucking infinite dude, there is no reason to talk about it for ages x)

 

[Rip Torn]

The block pressure is pretty dumb... I don't want to see this in tournament. Reminds me of f23~breath. Even if you have options to escape, it's braindead pressure that builds meter and does a decent amount of chip. Each hit is .75% and builds meter. After about 10 seconds, Kano has built 2 bars and taken about 15-20% chip, while you aren't building any meter to possibly armor out. It's just not a good look for the game, and if it is a block infinite on others, it needs to go.

2) Nerfing b1 would be disaster for cybernetic Kano across the board, and helpful for a few characters in 1 match-up. That's an imbalance. The goal is balance. Stop suggesting this.

How would, say, making b1 -1 on block completely destroy Kano? The character has incredible zoning tools already. You need to stop saying this, because there is no rationale behind it. Buffing Quan and Takeda would be the real disaster.

 

[cyke_out]

We were told to just use armor when in the corner versus grandmaster sub zero. If you can use armor to escape kano's b1 pressure than there is no issue. If a character has no possible chance to use armor or d2 and b1 is a block infinite then something needs to be done for that character.

 

[Branden Delio]

All Kano players reading this like..

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Speeding takeda's d1 up by 4 frames is not a measly little buff. And I seriously don't understand why you're so surprised about characters having a strong corner game. Remember injustice?

Bill, remember the entire cast having safe armored low-crushing F3's that are plus on block to get out of jail? Remember normal wakeups having invincibility? This my friend, is not Injustice

Outside of maybe Flash and Doomsday, the corner in MKX is already a whole other animal.

 

[Sultan]

The block pressure is pretty dumb... I don't want to see this in tournament. Reminds me of f23~breath. Even if you have options to escape, it's braindead pressure that builds meter and does a decent amount of chip. Each hit is .75% and builds meter. After about 10 seconds, Kano has built 2 bars and taken about 15-20% chip, while you aren't building any meter to possibly armor out. It's just not a good look for the game, and if it is a block infinite on others, it needs to go.



How would, say, making b1 -1 on block completely destroy Kano? The character has incredible zoning tools already. You need to stop saying this, because there is no rationale behind it. Buffing Quan and Takeda would be the real disaster.

"You need to stop saying this" sounds a little too personal, imo. This is my first post in this thread, and it isn't just me that feels this way. It's not Kano across the board that I'm worried about, it's cybernetic. If you think a character with no strong mix-up, who can only zone sounds like a competitive character, you're forgetting that teleporting characters, like say Scorpion, exist. If you can trump my only option, zoning, then what does cybernetic Kano have? What do I gain for getting in? I can't pop you with high-low, and without b1 my frametrapping options look pretty dismal.

I'm not saying it's fair that certain characters get nearly block-locked by this, there should be systems in place from a mechanical perspective that can deal with this problem. If you think it's just Kano that's locking people up, then you're also being shortsighted and targeting only one of a handful of characters with oppressive pressure.

There's no reason why a move that's neutral on block should be this oppressive. If it was +1000 I would understand targeting Kano, but when a neutral move is causing so much drama, it's clearly an issue with the game as a whole, not Kano.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

All Kano players reading this like..

for real, I haven't even been using B1 that much in the corner because I assumed I'd get blown up, now I'm going to soooo much since apparently it is extremely effective.