General/Other - Takeda Kano B1 abuse vs Takeda

[Obamu]

Not sure If I'm noob but AI pretty much gets out of it lel

 

[RM Jonnitti]

You honestly don't know to test lol. You can't beat it clean...

yeah i figured it out that for some reason if you mash b1 it doesn't always come out on frame 1 and you have to actually time it we went over this already

 

[BillStickers]

That whole backdash into 112 full combo is complete misinformation, no half decent Kano player will keep doing B1s after they see Takeda backdash, and then to still do it in time for him to get an 11f jab out.

I was just going to post this... thank you.

Listen you two sassy know-it-alls, my post is specifically talking about consecutive b1s; note how the post says, "Takeda's options against Kano's b1 reps." It's a "learn to crawl before you walk" thing – people need to learn how to deal with simple tactics before you introduce all the possibilities Kano has. And honestly, once you start talking about all of his options, you're out of the realm of "block infinite" and more in the realm of "good pressure."

 

[BillStickers]

IF they are a frame off, i'm guessing there is a chance to trade with a d2?

Yep! B1s are pretty easy to time correctly, though, so I wouldn't count on it. If you don't get the trade, Kano gets an insane amount of standing hit advantage to do whatever he wants.

 

[qspec]

Watching people try to justify something that is potentially broken has been illuminating if not a touch depressing. At one point the solution was "let it hit you"... really... ? I love that our idea of balance is "shouldn't have blocked it, man... take it on the nose."

That said, if this affects every variation of Takeda (or others), it absolutely should be changed, but if it doesn't affect all 3 variations, then let it stand.

I mean, do we really need to balance every variation against every other variation? I thought the idea behind variations was that you could potentially get a favorable pick without needing to change characters simply by changing variations. That seems reasonable to me.

If it only affects say summoner Quan and not another Quan variation... then pick the better (in this situation) variation... no?

 

[M2Dave]

I could not win with mmh? Lol I would 10-0 when we played.. You calling other people hypocrites is hilarious. Yiu call out zyphox for whining when you're are the number one by far whinniest little girl on tym.. And I can only win with good characters.. Mmh lets see you're track record mains.. Freddy zod and Kano.

You are under this fanatical illusion that you are a top player with great footsis when in reality you just play op zoning characters and you still get bodied.. Should have recorded all the sets where I would straight up demolished and wiped the floor with you in injustice.. ohh yeaa but I don't win with mmh... Right ... Here come the excuses where zod looses to mmh which are true but you should still not be loosing 14 games straight (yes I remember)

First of all, when did I ever claim to be a top player with "great footsies? If you are referring to a delusion top player who believes he has great footsies, you are thinking about Sonic Fox.

Second of all, you beat me 10:0? OK, Ra Helios. Those matches were six months ago. I went even with your Martian Manhunter and annihilated your secondary characters with mine in our most recent sets. You know you are mediocre player when you go even in a winning 7:3 match up.

I think mediocre is still too good to describe you. You came into this thread trying to justify a block infinite combo. If you are on PSN, add me. I will beat your Kano with my secondary characters.

 

[Zoidberg747]

By legit block infinite meaning you can't even get an armor move in or a backdash? ??

Because if you can it isn't a block infinite.

Otherwise i understand what you mean in that he doesn't have a move without meter to change the situation with out him taking damage.

If you try and backdash the b1 will catch the backdash.

If you try and armor the b1 will eat the armor and then the next b1 will interrupt the special. It is a legit block infinite.

Watching people try to justify something that is potentially broken has been illuminating if not a touch depressing. At one point the solution was "let it hit you"... really... ? I love that our idea of balance is "shouldn't have blocked it, man... take it on the nose."

That said, if this affects every variation of Takeda (or others), it absolutely should be changed, but if it doesn't affect all 3 variations, then let it stand.

I mean, do we really need to balance every variation against every other variation? I thought the idea behind variations was that you could potentially get a favorable pick without needing to change characters simply by changing variations. That seems reasonable to me.

If it only affects say summoner Quan and not another Quan variation... then pick the better (in this situation) variation... no?

It is a block infinite in all variations.

Guys for real, I am about as lenient towards letting it rock as it gets, but this is a block infinite. Either they need to buff quan or nerf Kano(preferably the first one). And no, no variations should have a block infinite on another variation, that is ridiculous.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

Listen you two sassy know-it-alls, my post is specifically talking about consecutive b1s; note how the post says, "Takeda's options against Kano's b1 reps." It's a "learn to crawl before you walk" thing – people need to learn how to deal with simple tactics before you introduce all the possibilities Kano has. And honestly, once you start talking about all of his options, you're out of the realm of "block infinite" and more in the realm of "good pressure."

The point was about B1 reps in the corner.

@Zyphox, couldnt Kano just rep 3 2 in the corner over and over? Mid mid, 9f start up, 0 on block.

If it hits, just confirm into B13 1+3 and he's at advantage again to just do the same thing over and over.

 

[qspec]

If you try and backdash the b1 will catch the backdash.

Guys for real, I am about as lenient towards letting it rock as it gets, but this is a block infinite. Either they need to buff quan or nerf Kano(preferably the first one). And no, no variations should have a block infinite on another variation, that is ridiculous.

Look, I agree with you. I don't think it should stand if it affects all the variations. Picking a character should never be a death sentence. But I am comfortable with a bad variation pick putting you at 3-7.

In this sense, I think we have a different opinion on the way variations are supposed to function. As I see them, they aren't true characters in a meaningful sense and should rather fill a role for your current character. This I think allows for some nonsense in match-ups, but I'm okay with that. If you see someone pick a variation that stomps yours, simply don't pick that variation.

My ideal balance would be that every character is viable vs every other character, and I think this can be meaningfully done by variations. That said, I don't think you have some "right" to a perfectly balanced variation vs all other characters simple because it isn't remotely possible.

If that were the case, MK would have a massive amount of balance considerations. Once the 3 DLC launch, that would make ~90 characters in this game (3 variations per ~30 characters). I think trying to balance all of that is nuts. Hell, that's almost twice what SFIV has, and SFIV has notoriously terrible balance in a few match-ups.

But to reiterate, if this one Kano variation (or any one variation) allows for bullshit like infinites, etc. to your entire character... yes, that should absolutely be fixed.

 

[BillStickers]

If you try and backdash the b1 will catch the backdash.

If you try and armor the b1 will eat the armor and then the next b1 will interrupt the special. It is a legit block infinite.



It is a block infinite in all variations.

Guys for real, I am about as lenient towards letting it rock as it gets, but this is a block infinite. Either they need to buff quan or nerf Kano(preferably the first one). And no, no variations should have a block infinite on another variation, that is ridiculous.

Your timing is off.

 

[Zoidberg747]

Look, I agree with you. I don't think it should stand if it affects all the variations. Picking a character should never be a death sentence. But I am comfortable with a bad variation pick putting you at 3-7.

In this sense, I think we have a different opinion on the way variations are supposed to function. As I see them, they aren't true characters in a meaningful sense and should rather fill a role for your current character. This I think allows for some nonsense in match-ups, but I'm okay with that. If you see someone pick a variation that stomps yours, simply don't pick that variation.

My ideal balance would be that every character is viable vs every other character, and I think this can be meaningfully done by variations. That said, I don't think you have some "right" to a perfectly balanced variation vs all other characters simple because it isn't remotely possible.

If that were the case, MK would have a massive amount of balance considerations. Once the 3 DLC launch, that would make ~90 characters in this game (3 variations per ~30 characters). I think trying to balance all of that is nuts. Hell, that's almost twice what SFIV has, and SFIV has notoriously terrible balance in a few match-ups.

But to reiterate, if this one Kano variation (or any one variation) allows for bullshit like infinites, etc. to your entire character... yes, that should absolutely be fixed.

I think you're grossly misinterpreting what I'm saying lol. I have no qualms with variations having varied MUs, and I could care less if one variation goes 3-7 or 2-8. However, having a block infinite on anyone is not acceptable. If there is a block infinite on one variation(which would be difficult considering most characters options to beat infinites are normals and universal tools) then something needs to be done to stop that(preferably giving the variation an option to get out). I dont want "perfect" variations, but I also dont want infinites.

Your timing is off.

You sure? I tried it with like 5 different timings. Even so its irrelevant because a good kano will see the backdash and finish the string and put Quan back into the same situation(he can't wakeup). Its an infinite.

 

[dribirut]

First of all, when did I ever claim to be a top player with "great footsies? If you are referring to a delusion top player who believes he has great footsies, you are thinking about Sonic Fox.

Second of all, you beat me 10:0? OK, Ra Helios. Those matches were six months ago. I went even with your Martian Manhunter and annihilated your secondary characters with mine in our most recent sets. You know you are mediocre player when you go even in a winning 7:3 match up.

I think mediocre is still too good to describe you. You came into this thread trying to justify a block infinite combo. If you are on PSN, add me. I will beat your Kano with my secondary characters.

Haha you went even after I dropped the game for like 2 months. And yea you'd get whooped when the game was actually still relevent

 

[dribirut]

First of all, when did I ever claim to be a top player with "great footsies? If you are referring to a delusion top player who believes he has great footsies, you are thinking about Sonic Fox.

Second of all, you beat me 10:0? OK, Ra Helios. Those matches were six months ago. I went even with your Martian Manhunter and annihilated your secondary characters with mine in our most recent sets. You know you are mediocre player when you go even in a winning 7:3 match up.

I think mediocre is still too good to describe you. You came into this thread trying to justify a block infinite combo. If you are on PSN, add me. I will beat your Kano with my secondary characters.

Go play cowboy and tell me how you do.. And again putting words in my mouth. Did I not say make it -1 or -2 instead of how it is now at plus 2..

 

[Tomo009]

They added 1 start-up frame to nearly every move in the game because the frame data was off.

Wait what? I knew they added a frame but I thought they actually added a frame to the moves, not just the data.

So are we swapping from "sensible every game that isn't SF4" notation, to SF4 notation?

Because the data made perfect sense, EX Tempest Lao's spin was 4 frames startup and punished -5 moves.

I'm actually kinda sad about that.

 

[RYX]

m2dave is my favorite guy

if i could legally buy alcohol i still wouldn't because i'm morally opposed to the practice of drinking'

but i'd give him a refreshing glass of water

 

[dribirut]

I think you're grossly misinterpreting what I'm saying lol. I have no qualms with variations having varied MUs, and I could care less if one variation goes 3-7 or 2-8. However, having a block infinite on anyone is not acceptable. If there is a block infinite on one variation(which would be difficult considering most characters options to beat infinites are normals and universal tools) then something needs to be done to stop that(preferably giving the variation an option to get out). I dont want "perfect" variations, but I also dont want infinites.



You sure? I tried it with like 5 different timings. Even so its irrelevant because a good kano will see the backdash and finish the string and put Quan back into the same situation(he can't wakeup). Its an infinite.

Haha wow you're such a liar. I've tested his b1 extennnnsively and takedas armor beats b1 staggers clean. I agree that shouldn't be his only way out but stop spreading misinformation to further your nerf Kano agenda

 

[ando1184]

The point was about B1 reps in the corner.

@Zyphox, couldnt Kano just rep 3 2 in the corner over and over? Mid mid, 9f start up, 0 on block.

If it hits, just confirm into B13 1+3 and he's at advantage again to just do the same thing over and over.

Ok let me squash this urban legend right now, b13, 1+3 is not safe/plus/neutral anything. If the 1+3 comes out Kano gets punished with a 9f move or faster. Which means a full combo for most characters. Guys please stop listening to everything you read on tym or the in game frame data, test this stuff out.

 

[Youphemism]

Ok let me squash this urban legend right now, b13, 1+3 is not safe/plus/neutral anything. If the 1+3 comes out Kano gets punished with a 9f move or faster. Which means a full combo for most characters. Guys please stop listening to everything you read on tym or the in game frame data, test this stuff out.

He said if it hits so Kano is left at +13...

 

[Eldriken]

He said if it hits so Kano is left at +13...

It doesn't look that way to me. >_> Where are you getting that from?

 

[Youphemism]

It doesn't look that way to me. >_> Where are you getting that from?

The frame data lol.

 

[Eldriken]

The frame data lol.

Oh, wait, wait. I thought you said HE said he was left at +13 in his post. My mistake. I read it the wrong way. Carry on!

 

[Zoidberg747]

Haha wow you're such a liar. I've tested his b1 extennnnsively and takedas armor beats b1 staggers clean. I agree that shouldn't be his only way out but stop spreading misinformation to further your nerf Kano agenda

Im talking about quan chi. Takeda could armor through easily, I never said otherwise.

 

[M2Dave]

Haha you went even after I dropped the game for like 2 months. And yea you'd get whooped when the game was actually still relevent

Nice option select.

Did I not say make it -1 or -2 instead of how it is now at plus 2..

I feel like a zoning character should not have Cage's Mortal Kombat 9 f+3. Even if b+1 is -4 on block, Kano is going to be all right. Nerfs are probably coming soon for all top tier characters.

 

[ando1184]

He said if it hits so Kano is left at +13...

My bad your right, misread

 

[DevilMaySpy]

Kano players online: http://imgur.com/MqJEtlJ