Joker... is he better than people think?

[KeyserSoze]

Due to jokers archetype, it's really hard to balance him without making him broken in my opinion.

Totally agree with this and I suspect that NRS does as well, which is why they lean towards leaving him a bit underwhelming as opposed to broken af.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I think Joker is like high low tier

 

[KeyserSoze]

I think Joker is like high low tier

Maybe. Which characters do you feel are worse than him?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Maybe. Which characters do you feel are worse than him?

Gorilla Grodd, Captain Cold, and Raiden. I’d put Joker a step over that with Bane (who can still melt your life fast if he gets the momentum), Black Canary (idc, she loses a lot of matchups and wins very few, but like Bane can still fuck you up), Poison Ivy, and Cyborg

 

[Vengeance135]

I'll be totally honest here, I dropped him shortly after release because I was just so frustrated that NRS didn't completely redesign his move-set between INJ1 and INJ2. Thus, I'm definitely not a a great person to ask.

However, I do still mess around with him, and if pressed, the one thing I would point out is that I feel as if he was designed with the idea that Gunshot would be his dominant mid/long-range tool. Unfortunately, because of characteristics like insane mobility and fast advancing mids that low profile like a mother fucker, much of the cast can deal with Gunshot much better than they should be able to. I'm honestly not sure what to do about this.

Again, I would have really liked to see NRS revamp his entire move-set during development.

Edit: And, his trait is still total ASS. I'm not sure why NRS can't just give him a broken trait like half of the fucking cast. Like, his trait in INJ1 was arguably the worst in the game (along with maybe Cyborg's?). Amazingly, it's possible that his trait is ALSO the worst in INJ2. Why can't they just give him average mobility and then give him a different trait? I just don't agree with the character design.

I appreciate the honesty lol I actually found use for his trait in injustice 1. People started to respect your space a bit more when you had a 1 frame parry handy lmao

 

[Vengeance135]

Gorilla Grodd, Captain Cold, and Raiden. I’d put Joker a step over that with Bane (who can still melt your life fast if he gets the momentum), Black Canary (idc, she loses a lot of matchups and wins very few, but like Bane can still fuck you up), Poison Ivy, and Cyborg

Those are interesting character choices. I hate the ivy and bane MU using joker personally lol. But unfortunately, jokers the only character know how to use. I can play a basic was red hood lol

 

[KeyserSoze]

I appreciate the honesty lol I actually found use for his trait in injustice 1. People started to respect your space a bit more when you had a 1 frame parry handy lmao

Oh, I agree that it definitely had its uses. I think the problem with it, more than anything else, was risk-reward. Getting full-combo punished for whiffing parry was not a lot of fun. This essentially meant that it was usually better to just block and punish something with a combo, instead of parrying. (more damage, safer)

 

[Tweedy]

Imo besides like Dark, Joker players just play him so that they have an OS for why they lose. They probably play lower tiers in all other fighting games they play and do the same thing. Some people don't like losing and use stuff like "my character sucks" and "no one gives me games" as defense mechanisms so that they don't have to blame themselves.

Joker is likely solid mid tier. Not secret broke and not garbage. That thread with him having all types of 3-7s and 2-8s was maybe the worst thread ever. Do you know what game we're playing? Barely any 3-7s exist and no 2-8s lol.

I also think a few Joker players think that he got nerfed and the rest of the Inj 2 cast has Inj 1 firepower. Him getting nerfed is irrelevant since the overall firepower of this game is so toned down. Catwoman is #1 and nerfed from Inj 1.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Those are interesting character choices. I hate the ivy and bane MU using joker personally lol. But unfortunately, jokers the only character know how to use. I can play a basic was red hood lol

I’d actually lump Deadshot in with that group too.

Yeah I can see that using Joker but if you look at Ivy and Bane-
Ivy can’t AA

Bane’s neutral is D1 and anti airs. He has to throw out a -20 DP just to take his turn when he’s plus.

 

[PetulantWaste]

Joker is likely solid mid tier. Not secret broke and not garbage.

Literally the only part of your post that's relevant. To be honest, it doesn't even matter WHY people play the character when discussing their tools so your character assassinations are actually irrelevant. If you think he's better than people give him credit for then argue that. Insulting Joker mains with your presumptions is just empty provocation.

 

[EMPEROR_KNICKS]

Tweedy he isnt mid hes probably like bottom 10, with that being said the character has many good things about him like bdogg who imo is the best joker by a mile makes the character look retarded, like the mix in the corner is dumb.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Well idk how i feel about joker. He’s underpowered when compared to the cast but then again... let’s look at him.
The most amazing thing about joker is his corner game.
Joker can create setups that pretty much deal with every characters wakeups. It’s just the problem is getting them to the corner.
While usually that’s not a big problem, 1/3 of the cast has forward advancing strings, and the other 66% is split between characters who can zone or make a wall (Wonder Woman).
damn i realized while typing this that y’all joker players got it hard fam.

 

[Vengeance135]

Imo besides like Dark, Joker players just play him so that they have an OS for why they lose. They probably play lower tiers in all other fighting games they play and do the same thing. Some people don't like losing and use stuff like "my character sucks" and "no one gives me games" as defense mechanisms so that they don't have to blame themselves.

Joker is likely solid mid tier. Not secret broke and not garbage. That thread with him having all types of 3-7s and 2-8s was maybe the worst thread ever. Do you know what game we're playing? Barely any 3-7s exist and no 2-8s lol.

I also think a few Joker players think that he got nerfed and the rest of the Inj 2 cast has Inj 1 firepower. Him getting nerfed is irrelevant since the overall firepower of this game is so toned down. Catwoman is #1 and nerfed from Inj 1.

While I really don't agree with much of anything you said here, I respect your opinion and appreciate your comment.

I think the people that swear he's much better then people lead him on don't really know how he functions in his MU's.

I do agree that he doesn't have any 2-8 MU's in this game for sure and as I said, he does much better in this game then the first.

He does most definitely have two 3-7 MU's in this game (Dr Fate and Super-Girl). He is a decent character for sure, but in comparison to 3/4s of the roster that does stuff better then him, he wouldn't be the ideal choice.

Also there's not a lot of data to pull from as far as character use. You have maybe a hand full of players that use him at a high level so the chances of you actually understanding how to play the MU outside the lab is slim unless you're hella close to emp dark and run an endless set with him.

Personally I've played multiple fighting games like sf, tekken etc and joker is the first low tier character I've ever mained.

 

[Tweedy]

While I really don't agree with much of anything you said here, I respect your opinion and appreciate your comment.

I think the people that swear he's much better then people lead him on don't really know how he functions in his MU's.

I do agree that he doesn't have any 2-8 MU's in this game for sure and as I said, he does much better in this game then the first.

He does most definitely have two 3-7 MU's in this game (Dr Fate and Super-Girl). He is a decent character for sure, but in comparison to 3/4s of the roster that does stuff better then him, he wouldn't be the ideal choice.

Also there's not a lot of data to pull from as far as character use. You have maybe a hand full of players that use him at a high level so the chances of you actually understanding how to play the MU outside the lab is slim unless you're hella close to emp dark and run an endless set with him.

Personally I've played multiple fighting games like sf, tekken etc and joker is the first low tier character I've ever mained.

I mean saying I don't know the mu isn't gonna convince me that Joker is bad. I'm not some noob poster, even if i'm not excellent in the Joker mu, I can assess his tools. Bdogg is also the best Joker btw not Dark, even though Dark is very strong.

 

[GLoRToR]

From what I understand he suffers from the same design negligence that affects a great deal of NRS products.

He boasts a very impressive set of tools - namely a bunch of really crazy hard to block mixups, unblockable, zoning with potential, good normals and one of the potentially best traits in the game.

The problem is the execution of it all, with how you have to delay that ex gunshot, how some of the hits are broken, and whatever else is wrong that people who actually played him know better than I do.

He needs to get adjusted for sure.
He deserves better.

 

[NothingPersonal]

If people think he's Q tier, than yes, I would say they are wrong because he's F tier.
There is really only one true way to see what tier is a certain character. Pick him up yourself and see how you do and make your own conclusions.

 

[Eldagrin]

I only really have MU experience as Harley vs Joker and I don’t think he’s a terrible character, his gunshot is pretty good in the neutral, but his buttons for footsies are pretty trash. His corner oki game is deadly but getting to that point is way more work than what someone like Flash has to put in from what I’ve seen

 

[Vengeance135]

I mean saying I don't know the mu isn't gonna convince me that Joker is bad. I'm not some noob poster, even if i'm not excellent in the Joker mu, I can assess his tools. Bdogg is also the best Joker btw not Dark, even though Dark is very strong.

I wouldn't try to convince you of anything. You're opinion is your own and rather I like it or not, I for sure respect it.

Assessing his tools in the lab and understanding how they are used in MU's are 2 different things imo and as i stated before, joker is for sure a decent character. There are just way more characters that do things much better then him and are much easier to access.

 

[Vengeance135]

If people think he's Q tier, than yes, I would say they are wrong because he's F tier.
There is really only one true way to see what tier is a certain character. Pick him up yourself and see how you do and make your own conclusions.

This comment killed me lol

 

[TamedLizard]

oh his d3 is actually ass too. a buff to his d3 would actually be a game change. its a low to it keep people from walking back. which why beetle and catwoman are able to do well in the mid range. so if they made is d3 12f and safe that would already. move him up.

Bingo.

 

[Vengeance135]

Bingo.

What's going on bro. I explained to Laos why I don't think making his d3 safe is a game changer, but why do you think it is?

 

[Vex]

Vengeance I love you man

 

[TamedLizard]

What's going on bro. I explained to Laos why I don't think making his d3 safe is a game changer, but why do you think it is?

It's mentioned in this thread and numerous other Joker ones that buffing him is a slippery slope. A better D3 is something I've been eyeing since I picked up the character, and I don't think that alone would push him over the edge. If not better frame data on block/startup, then at least shave some frames off of that 30f recovery. You may not get punished on block consistently, but you sure as hell will on whiff.

Like Lao said, it's preference really. But imho a character being able to halt the walk back meta in this game is huge, and it'd help him best in MUs he gets lamed out in like WoWo or Fate.

 

[Vengeance135]

It's mentioned in this thread and numerous other Joker ones that buffing him is a slippery slope. A better D3 is something I've been eyeing since I picked up the character, and I don't think that alone would push him over the edge. If not better frame data on block/startup, then at least shave some frames off of that 30f recovery. You may not get punished on block consistently, but you sure as hell will on whiff.

Like Lao said, it's preference really. But imho a character being able to halt the walk back meta in this game is huge, and it'd help him best in MUs he gets lamed out in like WoWo or Fate.

I gotcha bro, don't get me wrong I think having a safe d3 would help his game for sure. I think a game changer would be adjusting his f232 string or shaving off start up frames on his trait.

I honestly think jokers trait can be somewhat useful in certain MU's if it didn't take so long to actually start it and when you finally get it started, it barely lasts. Either that or a new trait lol.

But i digress, this thread wasn't made to downplay joker.

This thread was made to bring some clarity to a character that has been somewhat controversial with a community that's pretty much dead with the exception of a few hardcore loyalists.

 

[Vengeance135]

Vengeance I love you man

Ay little bro, someone needs to give this character a rebirth lol