Joker... is he better than people think?

[Vengeance135]

Hey guys,

So I've seen quite a few people boasting how joker is much better then the joker community leads him on to be.

Now I want to tag people in the joker community, but the problem is, jokers community is pretty much nonexistent at this point aside from a few people that rep the character.

So I've decided to take it to the community in general to talk about what people actually think about him.

Is joker secretly top tier?

Does he actually suck?

Can you say you actually understand the MU with your own character?

Are you actually getting outplayed by the joker player and just mad about it?

Can we support either claim with viable information and not "his zoning is godlike because his gun is so good" comments.

I really want this thread to be as informative as possible.

My personal opinion, joker is a solid character overall. His weaknesses do outweigh his strengths in a lot of MU's, however that doesn't mean he's bad. In comparison to his injustice 1 counterpart, he does WAY better in MU's in this game. He's a very difficult character to learn and master.

I think it's a universal understanding that Injustice 2 is one of the most balanced, if not most balanced fighter, NRS has made. 7-3s aren't really a common thing in this game outside of a few MU's.

Now when I say joker is a bottom tier character, I don't mean that he's a completely useless character. There's just more characters that can do things a lot better then he does.

Due to jokers archetype, it's really hard to balance him without making him broken in my opinion.

So I ask the test your might community, what do you think of Joker?

(Disclaimer: I know it's sometimes dangerous to ask questions like this but I ask that we all be civil.)

 

[Qwark28]

As always, I stand by the opinion that he is much lower than the community thinks but also a bit higher than the Joker community thinks.

Outside community is too ignorant, Joker community is too downplaying/ignorant/finding solace in the bottom tier excuse.

Ton of stuff I incredibly disagree with regarding both groups.

He's good character to pull out against up to 4-6 and even then not too easily counterable if people don't know defence and blindly counterpick.

But ye, if you're like "Joker is a secret hidden gem" then get your brain diagnosed. He's not anywhere above decent.

 

[BanTheTesters]

Not at all...this has been discussed time and time again...hes got some ok to decent corner dirt if you can actually get your opponent there but do to a lot of solid wake up options and strong zoning short answer...no He also has no range and has to get pretty close to do damage plus slow low canister and high gun shot that can be out shinned by half the projectile cast...

This was the same debate cats were having launch month and the joker community was doing lab work telling ppl it was fake news but here we are...he still at the bottom of folks list lol

Very good topic to discuss now that the games been out for a while, dig where you head is at

 

[Vengeance135]

Not at all...this has been discussed time and time again...hes got some ok to decent corner dirt if you can actually get your opponent there but do to a lot of solid wake up options and strong zoning short answer...no He also has no range and has to get pretty close to do damage plus slow low canister and high gun shot that can be out shinned by half the projectile cast...

This was the same debate cats were having launch month and the joker community was doing lab work telling ppl it was fake news but here we are...he still at the bottom of folks list lol

Very good topic to discuss now that the games been out for a while, dig where you head is at

I'm kind of wondering if I should make joker VS etc character breakdown videos with some commentary to help out the community if they are struggling with joker.

 

[PetulantWaste]

I can't name many characters who are definitely WORSE than Joker, probably Captain Cold and Raiden would be my picks for bottom 1-2. Other than that who would be the worst character in the game?

Joker's OK but he's definitely not competing with the top tier. I think he's 1 solid buff from being with the big dogs. Just 1.

 

[Vengeance135]

I can't name many characters who are definitely WORSE than Joker, probably Captain Cold and Raiden would be my picks for bottom 1-2. Other than that who would be the worst character in the game?

Joker's OK but he's definitely not competing with the top tier. I think he's 1 solid buff from being with the big dogs. Just 1.

See the main reason I made this thread was because I really want other people to weigh in on jokers viability and simply give an informative explanation as to why they think he's good or bad.

Players like us who have put the time in know what he's capable of but I want to bring more people into the fold just in case we are missing something or they need help if they are struggling.

Joker gets completely ignored on this website and his community and forums are like a ghost town. Yet some people swear he's much better then others lead him on to be.

Joker needs some life on this site damn it!

 

[DavesHotnJuicy]

I'm kind of wondering if I should make joker VS etc character breakdown videos with some commentary to help out the community if they are struggling with joker.

Do it. Ur advice helped me a lot against joker, but I still hate him lmao.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I don't think the Joker is great or even all that good but I would put him over Cold, Grodd, and Raiden. I don't see him being down on their level. But I don't know if I think Joker is as good as the characters id have right above Cold/Grodd/Raiden such as Bane, Black Canary or Green Lantern. So basically I don't know where Joker is.

 

[Thundergodd]

See the main reason I made this thread was because I really want other people to weigh in on jokers viability and simply give an informative explanation as to why they think he's good or bad.

Players like us who have put the time in know what he's capable of but I want to bring more people into the fold just in case we are missing something or they need help if they are struggling.

Joker gets completely ignored on this website and his community and forums are like a ghost town. Yet some people swear he's much better then others lead him on to be.

Joker needs some life on this site damn it!

I admire your faithfulness to the character you love.

Well done.

 

[Laos_boy]

I'll just say he's the best out of all the shitters.

 

[Jhonnykiller45]

I'll just say he's the best out of all the shitters.

Who are included in that list?

 

[Vengeance135]

Do it. Ur advice helped me a lot against joker, but I still hate him lmao.

Which MU would you guys want me to start with?

 

[Vengeance135]

I don't think the Joker is great or even all that good but I would put him over Cold, Grodd, and Raiden. I don't see him being down on their level. But I don't know if I think Joker is as good as the characters id have right above Cold/Grodd/Raiden such as Bane, Black Canary or Green Lantern. So basically I don't know where Joker is.

It's hard to verify the validity of a character that's barely used, but seeing the lack of love and support for a character can generally give you a good idea where he stands.

 

[Laos_boy]

Who are included in that list?

Cold, cyborg, bane, raiden, and Deadshot. Joker's the top of that list Imo.

Bane is the only debatable. Cold does has a winning MU vs CW (barely). But overall joker has a better neutral over everyone on that list.

 

[Vengeance135]

Cold, cyborg, bane, raiden, and Deadshot. Joker's the top of that list Imo.

Bane is the only debatable. Cold does has a winning MU vs CW (barely). But overall joker has a better neutral over everyone on that list.

What do you think of joker?

 

[Vengeance135]

I don't think the Joker is great or even all that good but I would put him over Cold, Grodd, and Raiden. I don't see him being down on their level. But I don't know if I think Joker is as good as the characters id have right above Cold/Grodd/Raiden such as Bane, Black Canary or Green Lantern. So basically I don't know where Joker is.

Now when I say barely used, I mean the lack of users. Myself and a few other joker players like @EMP Dark have consistently rep'd this character for years and will most likely continue to do so for our love for the character. I refuse to let The clown prince of crime disappear!

 

[Laos_boy]

What do you think of joker?

i think he has good tools but fundamentally lacks
i played alot of characters and joker was one that i spent 2 weeks (pre wake up) and 3-ish weeks (post wake up buff)
and honestly he feels the same.

Gunshot is thing only thing keeping his neutral mid tier. alot of people think neutral is footsies but its your options when you and your opponent are both at a neutral state so gunshot being fast and no travel distance its a great in that situation. but when he actually has to play footsies his buttons are horrendous.

his whiff punishing is bad. d2 can only do so much. Youd it covers as an anti air and a long normal but lets be serious here how many times has it failed to do both. so you resort back to gunshot which is great but in a game where low profiling advancing mids and half screen jump ins exist it scary to gunshot.

so he has an average neutral and bad footsies. But bad buttons arent the only thing contributing to his bad footsies. his movement is ass. walkspeed is very import for whiff punishing so if had a good walk speed he be able to just walkout and play footsies with his other normals which is what black canary has to do. but his walk is ass and trait doesnt help.

oh his d3 is actually ass too. a buff to his d3 would actually be a game change. its a low to it keep people from walking back. which why beetle and catwoman are able to do well in the mid range. so if they made is d3 12f and safe that would already. move him up.

this was a long post but i really want to use joker but outside of gunshot he lacks fundamentally

 

[Blitzace10]

Poor Cold, I had such high hopes for him.

 

[Vengeance135]

i think he has good tools but fundamentally lacks
i played alot of characters and joker was one that i spent 2 weeks (pre wake up) and 3-ish weeks (post wake up buff)
and honestly he feels the same.

Gunshot is thing only thing keeping his neutral mid tier. alot of people think neutral is footsies but its your options when you and your opponent are both at a neutral state so gunshot being fast and no travel distance its a great in that situation. but when he actually has to play footsies his buttons are horrendous.

his whiff punishing is bad. d2 can only do so much. Youd it covers as an anti air and a long normal but lets be serious here how many times has it failed to do both. so you resort back to gunshot which is great but in a game where low profiling advancing mids and half screen jump ins exist it scary to gunshot.

so he has an average neutral and bad footsies. But bad buttons arent the only thing contributing to his bad footsies. his movement is ass. walkspeed is very import for whiff punishing so if had a good walk speed he be able to just walkout and play footsies with his other normals which is what black canary has to do. but his walk is ass and trait doesnt help.

oh his d3 is actually ass too. a buff to his d3 would actually be a game change. its a low to it keep people from walking back. which why beetle and catwoman are able to do well in the mid range. so if they made is d3 12f and safe that would already. move him up.

this was a long post but i really want to use joker but outside of gunshot he lacks fundamentally

You're post was very interesting. There's a few things I agree with:

First, his mobility is bad outside of trait.

His neutral tools aren't very strong, with the exception of a few MU'S

Some things I don't particularly agree with, but see where your coming from:

the threat of being punished for whiffed gunshots. This is for sure a problem HOWEVER, you shouldnt be using gunshots within your opponents jumping/punishing range. At that point, you're asking for the punishment.

Joker is very much a reads and reactions based character and you're reads and reactions are based solely on your MU knowledge and experience in every position in said MU.

The other thing I don't particularly agree with is the adjustment to his d3. While I think it would be helpful that his d3 being safe on block, that's not a game changer imo. If they made it safe, it would most likely still be negative and his sweep has like no push back, so joker would still essentially be giving up a turn.

Now if they made his d3 plus on block that would be kind of broken lol his d3 has great range, low profiles a fair amount of things and is hard to punish by most characters at it's MAX range as is. If it was plus... oh the dirty things we could do...

Blue Beetle and catwoman do well at mid range because they have some decently ranged attacks that can convert to some decent damage, not necessarily because of their sweeps.

I really do appreciate your support for the character! It's good to know people still think about him!

 

[KeyserSoze]

IMO, he's pretty bad and has the same basic problem that he had in Injustice 1: Zoning eats him alive.

 

[Laos_boy]

You're post was very interesting. There's a few things I agree with:

First, his mobility is bad outside of trait.

His neutral tools aren't very strong, with the exception of a few MU'S

Some things I don't particularly agree with, but see where your coming from:

the threat of being punished for whiffed gunshots. This is for sure a problem HOWEVER, you shouldnt be using gunshots within your opponents jumping/punishing range. At that point, you're asking for the punishment.

Joker is very much a reads and reactions based character and you're reads and reactions are based solely on your MU knowledge and experience in every position in said MU.

The other thing I don't particularly agree with is the adjustment to his d3. While I think it would be helpful that his d3 being safe on block, that's not a game changer imo. If they made it safe, it would most likely still be negative and his sweep has like no push back, so joker would still essentially be giving up a turn.

Now if they made his d3 plus on block that would be kind of broken lol his d3 has great range, low profiles a fair amount of things and is hard to punish by most characters at it's MAX range as is. If it was plus... oh the dirty things we could do...

Blue Beetle and catwoman do well at mid range because they have some decently ranged attacks that can convert to some decent damage, not necessarily because of their sweeps.

I really do appreciate your support for the character! It's good to know people still think about him!

i gunshot at mid range because like you said hes a reads based character just like any projectile it forces a jump. Im a little spoiled by beetle because canon has great recovery and he also has a 6f anti air so i bully them with jumps at mid range then i read they jump and anti air. its way harder to do with joker so youre right about that.

i honestly think sweeps or long ranged lows are important because it stops them from walking back. But it all depends on your playstyle. Youre right beetle and catgirl has great normals but if they keep walking back out of the range then whats the point. so i guess the sweeps is a good compliment to their normals.

But at least we can agree that jokers normals are bad and with better normals he woulddnt have to take riskier reads

 

[Vengeance135]

But at least we cant agree that jokers normals are bad and with better normals he woulddnt have to take riskier reads

Do you mean we can agree? Because I agree joker does have to take some serious risks to reap rewards. Example Dr fate. That MU is literally all about making the right read.

 

[Laos_boy]

Do you mean we can agree? Because I agree joker does have to take some serious risks to reap rewards. Example Dr fate. That MU is literally all about making the right read.

oops yeah.

 

[Vengeance135]

IMO, he's pretty bad and has the same basic problem that he had in Injustice 1: Zoning eats him alive.

Give me a more in depth response. I understand the Zoning eats him alive comment for sure, but do you have any further thoughts?

 

[KeyserSoze]

Give me a more in depth response. I understand the Zoning eats him alive comment for sure, but do you have any further thoughts?

I'll be totally honest here, I dropped him shortly after release because I was just so frustrated that NRS didn't completely redesign his move-set between INJ1 and INJ2. Thus, I'm definitely not a a great person to ask.

However, I do still mess around with him, and if pressed, the one thing I would point out is that I feel as if he was designed with the idea that Gunshot would be his dominant mid/long-range tool. Unfortunately, because of characteristics like insane mobility and fast advancing mids that low profile like a mother fucker, much of the cast can deal with Gunshot much better than they should be able to. I'm honestly not sure what to do about this.

Again, I would have really liked to see NRS revamp his entire move-set during development.

Edit: And, his trait is still total ASS. I'm not sure why NRS can't just give him a broken trait like half of the fucking cast. Like, his trait in INJ1 was arguably the worst in the game (along with maybe Cyborg's?). Amazingly, it's possible that his trait is ALSO the worst in INJ2. Why can't they just give him average mobility and then give him a different trait? I just don't agree with the character design.