General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage changes 10/04/16

[Wigy]

SD changes are weird, if they reduced advantage they should have said from +14 to +4. The "reduced the blockstun" approach sounds weird. Who knows.

Also yea, fisticuffs sounds exactly like that, but you'd actually spend it on block to guarantee some chip. Maybe who knows, there will be setups for 15-20% chip for one bar which would be great.

Doubt its guna be very plus on block more likely negative

Its a big buff for him theres not much launching armour cause b12 gap

 

[Zionix]

Doubt its guna be very plus on block more likely negative

Its a big buff for him theres not much launching armour cause b12 gap

Wigy you fake a-list get back on ronin

Anyway, the changes mean nothing. Armored launchers are gone so our offence is still extremely strong.

SD will have to do f3 straight shadow then a stagger or maybe d1; can't just yolo f3 or 11 from it now.. Rising shadow is negative which makes sense as its a launcher (its not punishable.)

Fisticuffs has a 17% throw and throws are going to be s-tier in this patch. Alist and fisticuffs gonna be extremely similar and I think the faster F34 and stronger throw and stagger options from b1 might make it better.

He said A-list now does similar damage to stunt double, so either SD has been nerfed on scaling or A-list buffed. So we will have to see. Removing armor from np and having 1 less cancel we should expect it to be the latter.

Grandmaster is still going to be a MASSIVE struggle.

 

[Wigy]

Wigy you fake a-list get back on ronin

Anyway, the changes mean nothing. Armored launchers are gone so our offence is still extremely strong.

SD will have to do f3 straight shadow then a stagger or maybe d1; can't just yolo f3 or 11 from it now.. Rising shadow is negative which makes sense as its a launcher (its not punishable.)

Fisticuffs has a 17% throw and throws are going to be s-tier in this patch. Alist and fisticuffs gonna be extremely similar and I think the faster F34 and stronger throw and stagger options from b1 might make it better.

He said A-list now does similar damage to stunt double, so either SD has been nerfed on scaling or A-list buffed. So we will have to see. Removing armor from np and having 1 less cancel we should expect it to be the latter.

Grandmaster is still going to be a MASSIVE struggle.

Grandmaster i just do my fake a-list and go takeda SR, lolol. I'm guessing you're the jc i played in birmingham?

Also faster f34? Did i miss something

 

[Zionix]

Grandmaster i just do my fake a-list and go takeda SR, lolol. I'm guessing you're the jc i played in birmingham?

Also faster f34? Did i miss something

Yeah i am

F34 in a-list is -12 its -3 in sd and fisti

Good news for a-list. You can do 1 run cancel and 1 dash cancel.

So you can hit confirm really easy now from a F3.

Bad news for a-list gonna have to re-learn muscle memory

 

[ShArp]

Ahahaha

 

[Wigy]

Yeah i am

F34 in a-list is -12 its -3 in sd and fisti

Good news for a-list. You can do 1 run cancel and 1 dash cancel.

So you can hit confirm really easy now from a F3.

Bad news for a-list gonna have to re-learn muscle memory

Yeah i am

F34 in a-list is -12 its -3 in sd and fisti

Good news for a-list. You can do 1 run cancel and 1 dash cancel.

So you can hit confirm really easy now from a F3.

Bad news for a-list gonna have to re-learn muscle memory

Oh right yeah thought you meant fisticuffs had a faster f3 or something lol, only tested for 10 minutes, ex buff doesnt seem to link off anything useful aside from f3 which mean unhitconfirmable combo extention for a bar with lots of chip after, its a buff obviously and he had issues with no reliable punishers for stuff that was like -12/13 which is now sorted will see how all the new meta develops

 

[Name v.5.0]

SD Johnny can't combo off 113~msk in the corner anymore. That sucks...

MSK pressure is different.

MRS is is negative. MBMRS no longer jails and has a gap. Fuck.

Now I have no idea what I'm doing on offense.

 

[PPJ]

 

[Zionix]

balanced

For fisticuffs you wants to ex buff into F2 from hitconfirm F3, 12 and B34.

113 can be linked into F3 but it aint easy mid screen the motions for f3 bf1 ex f3bd3 are gonna take some getting used to haha.

 

[SmokingWarrior]

I'll just cry about one thing, they didn't fix his hitbox issues

 

[ismael4790]

I'm testing the mb fistbump and something really weird happens.

Of course, i was trying to see if b12121212 mbfistbump b12121212 nutpunch was even possible...max swag...
Turns out that b1 links after the mbfistbump BUT it doesn't allow you to complete the string, it stops at the 4th hit, so this chain is not really worthy, better do 113 nutpunch there, that also allows to continue with exnutpunch if you want more damage.

Same happens if in the corner you do 113 mbfistbump b12121212. The opponent can block the last hit.

Until now, best use by far seems to be canceling f3 into mbfistbump into f2 for full combo midscreen and massive corner damage.

I don't know if these speedbag hits stopping after mbfistbump are intended... maybe the reason is to regulate the damage, since you are charged up and speedbag hits do more damage? Just in case: @colt.

 

[Wigy]

all of this stuff is seemingly hella neg on block, i suspect all these characters with redonk safe super armour just guna OS fucking everything lol.

but i mean he gets like 38% midscreen 1 bar (with 114 ball at the end)

 

[Kompetitor]

A-List only jails f3 skrc into s1, along with 4 skrc into other strings. Stunt Double has gaps in mimic pressure now too

 

[Asodimazze]

I have one complain only:

• Johnny Cage (A-List) - added 5 frames before a dash cancel is active if a move is charged during the opponents block stun

This change is a huge pain in the ass to deal with, because the cancel timing is significantly different if the move connects on hit or block but the player has no way to know if the opponent will block the move.
Guessing the timing of the cancel is just stupid and if you presume the move is going to hit, but the opponent blocks it, the cancel doesn' come out at all and Cage dies.

I can understand the block advantage nerf, but making the player guess to perform his own stuff properly is wrong, so I hope a hotfix will solve this problem.

It also becomes incredibly stupid in some situations, here is an example: since day 1 12(1)rc might whiff his first or second hit against some characters blocking low (like Cassie). If the Cage players sees the opponent blocking the first hit and change his cancel timing accordingly, he will get stuck in the animation when the second hit whiffs (lol).

This big difference of cancel execution when the opponent is in blockstun or not will create huge problems, guaranteed.

 

[omooba]

1,1,4 still jails in the corner and s4 jails everywhere. i can't find anything else though
this plus the fact that you can only do one run cancel now is pretty bad but eh we'll see

 

[ismael4790]

all of this stuff is seemingly hella neg on block, i suspect all these characters with redonk safe super armour just guna OS fucking everything lol.

but i mean he gets like 38% midscreen 1 bar (with 114 ball at the end)

There is at least one way of activating it when the opponent blocks that leads to a small blockstring:

4~fisbumpMB jails into f34$.

So basically, after every nutpunch, one can spend a bar and do 4~fisbumpMB jinto f34 which is 6,20% chip.

If Cage spends another bar, 4~fisbumpMB f3~exforceball does 10,65% guaranteed chip. Can be good for the kill.

 

[omooba]

There is at least one way of activating it when the opponent blocks that leads to a small blockstring:

4~fisbumpMB jails into f34$.

After every nutpunch, if you want to spend another bar, 4~fisbumpMB f3~exforceball does 10,65% guaranteed chip. Can be good for the kill.

was about to say this lol he also gets lots of new combos

 

[ismael4790]

Wigy you fake a-list get back on ronin

Anyway, the changes mean nothing. Armored launchers are gone so our offence is still extremely strong.

SD will have to do f3 straight shadow then a stagger or maybe d1; can't just yolo f3 or 11 from it now.. Rising shadow is negative which makes sense as its a launcher (its not punishable.)

Fisticuffs has a 17% throw and throws are going to be s-tier in this patch. Alist and fisticuffs gonna be extremely similar and I think the faster F34 and stronger throw and stagger options from b1 might make it better.

He said A-list now does similar damage to stunt double, so either SD has been nerfed on scaling or A-list buffed. So we will have to see. Removing armor from np and having 1 less cancel we should expect it to be the latter.

Grandmaster is still going to be a MASSIVE struggle.

So mimic shadowkick on block is now negative and ex rising mimic has a gap? RIP stunt double lol.

He still htbs in the corner vs meterless opponent though.

 

[M.D.]

SD is now useless as pressure. He just gets big damage in the corner and that's it.
A-list is idiotic to play with different inputs depending if the player randomly blocks or not.
Fisticuffs mb on block only works with standing 4, lol.

Shit tier confirmed.

 

[DR.Innuendo]

Way to Go Fisty Buffs. guess that mashing of #BuffFisty and #FistyBuffs paid off

 

[ismael4790]

More jailings:

In the corner 4~fistbump jails into: 214, b1 (second hit of speddbag whiffs though), standing 1 (you can do 114 but it usually whiffs due to pushback) and of course f34.

In terms of chip, 214 and f34 do the same, so it's better to do 214 and be neutral on block.

 

[jaylee777]

A list can jail:
*s4skrc into about everything
*114skrc into s1
*F3skrc into s1 (pretty hard imo)
*Probably b34skrc into s1

 

[Rodney Quillz]

What's it looking like boys? Fisticuffs best variation?

 

[Wigy]

What's it looking like boys? Fisticuffs best variation?

Still looks like a list to me. Fisticuffs still lacking proper pressure compared for me.

 

[Frosted 57]

Patch was crazy, gonna take a while to figure out the game again. Should be interesting. I'm a little concerned that Johnny's only armor now is a high, which means you can't armor a poke anymore. It may not end up being too bad, but it's something to watch out for. As for the FistBump change, one thing to note is that you cannot cancel it into block. So if you don't cancel it ExFistBump has the same recovery as the normal version. So make sure you're jailing or they have no meter. This means that on block 113xxExFistbump is pretty easily interruptible. (Kinda wish you could also cancel ExFistBump into Throw... but that would likely be way to much.)

I kind of wish the cancellable FistBump wasn't a meterburn but just a normal Ex type move, because it's pretty annoying to do normal 4xxBF1 then block now(since that is -6/7). In order to do that you have to do 4xxBF1+Block because this prevents you from spending the meter while blocking on the earliest frame. That should just be muscle memory though, so it may not end up being a problem. But right now it seems really easy to accidentally spend meter when you just want to block after FistBump.

ExFistBump grounded combos into speed bag seem to have some pretty jank rules to them. Like after doing 8 hits of speed bag into ExFistBump you can only get 3 more hits of speed bag after it. After doing 113 into ExFistBump you can get 7 hits of speed bag. After doing 4 hits of speed bag into ExFistBump you can get 5 hits of speed bag. Seems odd but may not matter since doing speed bag after the cancel generally won't be your best damage option.

F3xxExFistbumpxxBLANK will only jail with an 8 frame or faster normal, meaning that you can only jail from F3 with D1 or D3. So there isn't a huge risk to try and armor though a F3xxExFistBump. Standing 4 doesn't seem to combo with ExFistBump, but does jail into 13 frame stuff. Standing 4 is the only normal that jails into anything on block after ExFistBump. The F3 cancel is likely around +6.

You can juggle off of F24 & 333 into ExFistBump into D3 in the corner. Not sure how useful yet.

Midscreed off of speed bag you can do b12-12-12-12xxExFistBumpxxF4, f24, b12, f3xxBD3 for 32%
you can swap out the juggled b12 for just 12 which is easier and lose 1%, so 31%

Having a 1 bar 47% corner combo off of F3 seems pretty good... which after you can use another bar and guarantee 333xxExDF2 for 12.05% chip and be at +4. Turns it into a 2 bar 59% combo that leaves them standing at +4.
Btw the one I was using was F3xxExFistBumpxxF24, b12, b121, b121, b12-12-12-12-12xxBD3


Also getting a 1 bar 38% combo off of 113 in the corner seems solid. The old way using ExNutpunch was 36% but had armor to cover the gap if it was blocked. But if the Nutpunch was blocked you were punishable. But now you can't really cover the gap, but if the post-113 actions are blocked you should be safe. So it isn't a strict buff in this scenario, it just has different risks.

In the corner, if you connect with speed bag the best combo now would be something like b12-12-12-12xxExFistBumpxxF4, b12, b12, b12, b12, b12-12-12-12-12xxBD3 for 41%.

After all of these you can use another bar and guarantee 333xxExDF2 for 12.05% chip and be at +4.

The best part of these changes for combos is that when you finish the combo you already have FistBump active for the pressure/throw. It's a pretty big deal.

Also pretty important: After a nutpunch without FistBump active, for 1 meter you can get 4xxExFistbumpxxF34 for 6.2% chip and jails. Doing 4xxExFistbumpxxF244 is 7.4% chip but has a 1 or 2 frame gap. Meterless, the same as pre-patch, you can just do 4xxFistBump. Which is -6/7 depending on hitboxes(breathing and the like). But note above about blocking after it.

Overall the pressure changes don't seem to crazy, they all have gaps into strings except s4, so nothing broken really.

The big changes here are that FistBump will now be active for a much larger percentage of a match without having to sacrifice a ton of damage and that you end a combo with FistBump already active. This may be enough to make him pretty good. But we will have to see how the rest of the cast plays out first.

As always, sorry for wall of text.