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Jaqui is cancer and needs to be banned

Just the fact that some people require an explanation for a characters inclusion is so insane to me. Further, these people then use said explanation to judge whether or not said characters inclusion is...worthy?

All of it is disgusting to me and all of it is very "Now, I'm not racist but..." take your theories of tokenism and expectations for developers to explain the inclusion and representation that should have been there forever somewhere else.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Just the fact that some people require an explanation for a characters inclusion is so insane to me. Further, these people then use said explanation to judge whether or not said characters inclusion is...worthy?

All of it is disgusting to me and all of it is very "Now, I'm not racist but..." take your theories of tokenism and expectations for developers to explain the inclusion and representation that should have been there forever somewhere else.
Exactly.
 
Like I am actually mad (and a little concerned) how anyone can see a thread about a fighting game character being busted and ban worthy slide into a discussion on said character's race and these weird, weird theories on tokenism and inclusion and not see the inherit and systemic issue that represents.

There are lots of ways to be racist, this may not be the loudest and proudest way to do it...but this is absolutely a racist track of thought. Shit needs to go
 

pure.Wasted

'ello baby, did you miss me?
I wasn't speaking to which 'side' of the issue you're on. I was speaking to the fact that this is an issue at all, where people feel compelled to give a pass to any character except a minority character
If it was that simple, then you'd see as many questions about the inclusion of Geras as you do about Jacqui. When's the last time you heard someone be skeptical about NRS's reasons for including Geras?

There's a hierarchy to these complaints, if you take the time to look, that actually makes perfect sense when you try to explain this behavior through conservatism instead of racism. Geras, generally considered a cool brand new character who just happens to be black, gets z e r o complaints. Kitana/Mileena/Jade/Rain, existing characters with semi-established skin colors who are perceived by some people to have had their race changed (in some cases this perception is WRONG, but can be explained by when the person started following MK), get some people being cynical. Jacqui, generally considered a terrible brand new character who has been heavily pushed as a protagonist, gets the most people being cynical.

Racism does not explain that difference. Sexism does not explain that difference. Conservatism explains it perfectly. Conservative-minded people do not like change. They especially don't like change when they catch a whiff of any amount of hypocrisy. Now you can say that it shouldn't matter as far as NRS is concerned that CDPR is over in some other corner of the internet treating minority rights like a football game, and in most ways you're right it doesn't matter, but in some ways it does. People need to have the space to have these conversations and figure out the difference, which is sometimes subtle. Or else they're going to feel suffocated... and it goes without saying that doesn't lead to anything productive.

The point was, minorities do not want your judgement. And neither do the people who write, voice, and animate these characters. I don't care whether you think it is legit or not; the fact that you believe you have to evaluate whether it's "tokenism" or decide whether it was "warranted", simply because the character is African-American, after almost 30 years of basically having one consistently-included African-American character in the entire franchise, is ridiculous.
I believe that you're fundamentally talking past a lot of the people you think you disagree with. To you this is fundamentally a conversation about minorities, but to a lot of these people it's a conversation fundamentally about honesty. They don't like the idea that an artist/writer might feel socially pressured to include a character they might not have otherwise wanted to include, and furthermore that discussing this pressure in any way is taboo. You might look at the result and say "well yeah but we still only have X amount of minority characters, that's nothing, that STILL doesn't reflect reality," and you'd be right. But they look at the result and say "I can no longer trust this artist because it seems to me they'll say and do anything to get another dollar." And very rarely -- but commonly enough to justify their rampant cynicism -- they WILL be right.

I don't think we're going to get anywhere with those people if all we do is pretend they're crazy and that their cynicism is completely 1000% baseless.
 
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Obly

Ambiguous world creator
I kinda feel for Szkarad (or, if he's posting in bad faith, the people his comments represent; I know people like that). It's a fact that some companies feign interest in/support of certain causes just to score free cultural brownie points, and it's a fact that in some cases recently that's taken the case of supporting minority rights.

It's also a fact that some culturally conservative-minded people will then use this as a jumping off point to start being skeptical about the motivations of wide swaths of minority inclusion in media. In a lot of cases they'll be wrong. In some cases they'll be right, and they will feel that those cases where they were right vindicate them for being skeptical and cynical generally, ignoring all the times it made them wrong.

Especially because it's a lot easier to prove that a company did it for the wrong reasons (just catch them being hypocrites), than to prove that they did it for the right reasons.

I don't agree that Jacqui was added for tokenism. I think it would have been weird if Cassie was the only kombat kit to return in MK11, and Jacqui added a lot to Jax's story, so it makes sense that NRS would want to bring her back.

But I can see how if someone starts with the premises that 1. some companies sometimes include minority characters for the sake of including them, and 2. jacqui was CRAZY disliked in MKX and her story in MK11 is still pretty bad (she exists mostly to make Jax's story better), cynical interpretations of NRS's motives don't necessarily mean racism. The only thing it necessarily means is a tragic amount of cynicism.
I believe you that this post was made with good intentions. I can see that you're not necessarily personally agreeing with the views you're describing; you're just describing them. That's all fine.

The question is why you're trying to rationalize and justify this "cynicism" at all, as if, if we all just understood it better, it would be completely ok. But it's not ok and it's never ok--that's the whole point.

You stated a premise that cynicism is justifiable because sometimes companies include minorities "for the wrong reasons." Do you see the logical flaw in that premise? There's no such thing as a "wrong reason" for representing a minority member in media. Art imitates life, right? Life comes in a wide variety of colors. What could possibly be a "wrong reason" for representing people as they actually are? The only "wrong" is when media pretends like everyone looks the same.

We need to call out the elephant in the room. The reason "racial cynicism" exists (and why it's always in bad faith), why some people feel justified passing judgment on the deservingness of minority members to be represented, is because of an underlying belief that they don't deserve it. Or at least that they have to prove that they deserve it (the double standard being that majority members never have to prove their deservingness to be represented). It may not be a strongly held (i.e., blatantly racist) belief, may just be an unconscious bias, but it's always there.

What's the root of it? Well that's a risky hornets nest to kick (not looking to spiral this thread even more). I'd just offer that a lot of it comes from historical majority (white) resentment about social policies like affirmative action, which over time has morphed into this kneejerk reaction that the sight of a minority member with status means "they probably didn't really earn it" or "they're probably taking the spot of a white person who deserved it more." This kind of cultural resentment is exactly what "tokenism" is a dog-whistle word for.

I think we can talk about this kind of bias without yelling and attacking each other. But no, we definitely shouldn't coddle and accept it.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
If it was that simple, then you'd see as many questions about the inclusion of Geras as you do about Jacqui. When's the last time you heard someone be skeptical about NRS's reasons for including Geras?
Because Geras is a mythical creation of Kronika, basically an alien being with glowing blue eyes, and looks like a walking jigsaw puzzle. He's not particularly representative of anything based in real life.

Whereas, Jacqui is, you guessed it, just an in-game representation of an African-American female. They didn't make her "strange", just "normal" and relatively believable, which leads people to have to evaluate whether there's some kind of nefarious plot to put her in the game.

Jacqui, generally considered a terrible brand new character who has been heavily pushed as a protagonist, gets the most people being cynical.

Racism does not explain that difference. Sexism does not explain that difference. Conservatism explains it perfectly. Conservative-minded people do not like change.
Mmhmm, but Cassie doesn't need to pass the race test, she's ok. Makes sense.

The fact that a semi-normal African-American female character is "change" worthy of evaluating is precisely what people find so ridiculous about this point of view.

People are free to say they don't like the character's personality, gameplay, whatever. But the minute someone starts bringing up the fact that she's 'black' as some kind of convoluted defense for not wanting her in the game, their argument loses all validity. It's not a "sometimes they're right" or "well maybe it's understandable" kind of situation.
 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
@Szkarad that was racist af to say that about Jacqui. And then you tried to soften it up by first saying "I don't mind a well written black character". But in the very next sentence, you used race to completely discredit the character. You're the only one on this thread that used her ethnicity to talk about her relevancy. Yeah, let's go ahead and bash the only black girl in the game huh?

It would've been fine if you just said you don't see how she fits in the story. But the fact that you threw race into it, makes you look like a scumbag.
Sir,

No body has the right, to take away what you think. However @Szkarad may disagree on your perspective. He may even end up having depression, and be stressed out about it the fact, that you said that he looks like scumbag.

The man shared his thought in open debate. To mention race, skin color does not mean an individual is racist. Maybe when he was five, he was beaten by some Somali thugs in the dark ally. I almost got rubbed in Vienna, during the first Vienality by 3 black dudes. Since then, when I travel I look closely who is following me.
In certain circumstances, I am not a bit fan, but guess what, I have made the business of my life, with black American dude. We forged trust in the middle of nowhere, and that relationship continues - we were brother, and we still are, and it has been over 10 years. Does that make raciest, no.

Its perspective. Its so easy to judge people in the cyber world. People are already scared to speak their mind. The "Proper political view" is blown out of proportion, and that is good example of it.

And for the record, I am not friends with Szkarad, to buck him up. I recently realize, that one has to really select words carefully, cause one word, line night turn that individual on to something else. Everyone here is to reed, and talk about a game. Seems like a lot folks has forgotten about this. This forum, like others have members from different part of the world, and in general people think differently. If you, and others would gave a longer thought about it, you would come to realize, that the post in fact is related to a video game. There will always be "the first one to" person, but what does it mean, unless more solid evidence surface, judgement shouldnt take place, but in the anonymous internet, its so easy to through words, like used condom.

I rarely post, because a lot of folks who use too make this forum great, are not regulars anymore. I dont play any game competitively anymore, yet I visit this site on regular basis, because I love the franchise, and some of the folks that are still around. The reason why I decided to spent 20 minutes of my life on this post, because I saw a MK enthusiast speaking his mind, about a game character, and then in stead of focusing, and debating the subject, a group of individuals decided to play judge. When I went through the last few pages, the guy almost got ripped apart, and for what? This reminds me of women who use too be burned alive, accused of practicing witchcraft, because they new medicine.

We are already f@ucked by the governments, people are loosing jobs, families, people die. Thats evil, thats wrong, right there. We should be happy, that people come here, talk. Some may talk the way you like, some may not. We should give nothing then positive energy, not negativity.

You Sir, or others may disagree with me, and thats fine. Now this is me, speaking my mind

For the record: I main Jacqui upgraded.

Wish you all peaceful Christmas.
 

Zgf

Noob
People still complaining about Jacqui when Curbo is out here showing us how busted Kabal is?
Fuck both of these characters, they're both busted. Literally flying all over the screen like a bunch of nats, are pretty much safe on almost all of their base kit and both have unbreakable combos.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
IDK guys if she didn't need to be banned then how come there's so many pages in this thread? Hmmmmmmmm HMMMMMMMMMMMM
 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
Fuck both of these characters, they're both busted. Literally flying all over the screen like a bunch of nats, are pretty much safe on almost all of their base kit and both have unbreakable combos.

I did not play much I2, but I believe we have seen this type of offense before.

Mark my words, in couple of weeks, Flying Kabal and Jacqui will not be your only frustration.

They do get in easier then rest of the cast, but there are characters, in certain setups that worse then these two. Though I understand whee this is coming from.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
I don't know why this needs to be said but apparently some of y'all need to here this. Having a black woman represented on the roster is a good thing. So people saying she's only in the game for diversity and woke reasons please explain to me why you think that's a bad thing
 

Gaxkang

Banned
weird to think creators might include ninjas, sorcerors and demons in a fighting game because they like them but only include black girls because of politics.
People sure keep wanting to chime in and revive that subject lol

Huh :p

I think it's settled that there's no such angle to Jacqui. Been settled earlier.

So perhaps folks should chime in about her gameplay and the game design instead, eh? ;)
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Sometimes I just laugh at the humor of at all. It's like:

Violence: Check
Sexism: Check
Power fantasies: Check
Diversity: Nope nope nope, we can't have that, what are you guys doing?
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Sometimes I just laugh at the humor of at all. It's like:

Violence: Check
Sexism: Check
Power fantasies: Check
Diversity: Nope nope nope, we can't have that, what are you guys doing?
This is a game that posits that one person can flip another person into the air, then fire their gun so quickly that the bullets propel that person into the blades of a helicopter. But for some reason adding diverse characters just totally breaks the continuity of the game's universe.