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Jade is really good

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
A lot of the advancing mids put the character using them in some sort of danger because there moving along with their hurtbox, jade's hurtbox is the same and her hitbox for her back 2 extends a lot to catch anyone using their forward advancing string. back 2 isn't meant as a forward advancing mid like other characters who have them like baraka or kabal. Its mostly meant to be defensive and reactionary, to whiff punish. Changing this defensive tool to an offensive one as well isn't a good idea as long as balancing is involved.
A stationary multihit move will never be an offensive tool when it's negative enough to be punishable on block. Jade has a lot of the same; b1, b2, f2, they are all the same "has range and shit frame data" moves that would be amazing in a game that doesn't have moves like liu's f4, jax's f3 and f4, baraka's f44, jacqui's shit, anything Kabal does, and on goes the list of better, single, multipurpose moves that provide with options including high combo damage and get more done than all of Jade's kit together.

You can of course look at this individual move and be optimistic about it but if you look at Jade's buttons in a situation where you have Jacqui or Baraka in the neutral, whiffing or getting ducked / backstepped / jumped over on any of her "otherwise amazing" moves will cost you more hp than it will cost them if they guess wrong and get hit even by a f21 combo.
 

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
A lot of the advancing mids put the character using them in some sort of danger because there moving along with their hurtbox, jade's hurtbox is the same and her hitbox for her back 2 extends a lot to catch anyone using their forward advancing string. back 2 isn't meant as a forward advancing mid like other characters who have them like baraka or kabal. Its mostly meant to be defensive and reactionary, to whiff punish. Changing this defensive tool to an offensive one as well isn't a good idea as long as balancing is involved.
Kabal's hook pokes (b1~2) are mid and hardly put him in danger at all. Just one of many examples (all of his strings are safe, actually).

How is that ok for Kabal, considering his amazing zoning tools and overall presence on screen, but forbidden for Jade ?

And that's not even computing the huge difference in KB potential and overall combo damage / mixups


I'm ok with b2 as it is, actually, if b1 had some sort of change, frame wise.

15f startup with "not such a great range anyway", to end up being -15 on block ? Why ? B12 is -19, that would make sense to have the full overhead string unsafe, but the slow b1 at least safe on block ...

Jade has a lot of things that are weird if you look at her frame data, especially when you play other characters and suddenly wonder "oh that great normal is safe ? then ... why Jade is so unsafe on a worse normal ?"


Usually, when you create a character that's gonna be "low damage output / play keepaway", you give him safe pokes to match the archetype. That's where I think there's a problem, overall, if you look at her frame data.
 

seanpon

Noob
Kabal's hook pokes (b1~2) are mid and hardly put him in danger at all. Just one of many examples (all of his strings are safe, actually).

How is that ok for Kabal, considering his amazing zoning tools and overall presence on screen, but forbidden for Jade ?

And that's not even computing the huge difference in KB potential and overall combo damage / mixups


I'm ok with b2 as it is, actually, if b1 had some sort of change, frame wise.

15f startup with "not such a great range anyway", to end up being -15 on block ? Why ? B12 is -19, that would make sense to have the full overhead string unsafe, but the slow b1 at least safe on block ...

Jade has a lot of things that are weird if you look at her frame data, especially when you play other characters and suddenly wonder "oh that great normal is safe ? then ... why Jade is so unsafe on a worse normal ?"


Usually, when you create a character that's gonna be "low damage output / play keepaway", you give him safe pokes to match the archetype. That's where I think there's a problem, overall, if you look at her frame data.
I agree on Kabal, the character is definitely top tier and doesn't really have any weaknesses, which is contrary to many characters like jade and kano. B12 as it is totally unusable due to how unsafe it is. And kabals back 1 i believe is 15 frames, and jades back 2 is 10 frames with better range. Jade being unsafe on certain strings definitely makes them unusable, like F41. But at least jade is not shafted in regards to her frame data like other characters (kotal, frost). I think Jade would be good if B3434 launched only for a shadow kick, then her damage and punish game would be much more respectable. This wouldn't be a huge buff that makes her absurdly top tier either.
 

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
That could help indeed.

I'd rather have her 124 unsafe on block and juggle outside KB though. But considering the range on 12, that might be OP, idk.

Or at least b,f,2 MB option into juggle for low damage, but something that helps with her very low punish damage.


About Kabal, I don't really get what you mean about "how unsafe" his stuff is :

  • b1 is -3 on block
  • b12 is -7 on block
  • b12d2 is -4 on block
 

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
That could help indeed.

I'd rather have her 124 unsafe on block and juggle outside KB though. But considering the range on 12, that might be OP, idk.

Or at least b,f,2 MB option into juggle for low damage, but something that helps with her very low punish damage.


About Kabal, I don't really get what you mean about "how unsafe" his stuff is :

  • b1 is -3 on block
  • b12 is -7 on block
  • b12d2 is -4 on block
43 launching properly for b2 / b343x would be more beneficial for her in my opinion.
124 being unsafe would deprive her of a pretty good mobility and spacing tool that I use a lot to cover ground or get the hell out of dodge.

And yes, Kabal does the same thing that Jade does, better. If his b2 range moves were highs he'd still be better because he'd still launch off of those options.
 
Kabals b12 string would cleanly beat Jades b2 in the beta. Had it happen multiple times and I raged lol. The hitbox and hurtbox are heavily in his favor.

Beta Kabal was a major PITA for me. I dunno if he was changed at all for full game. Rarely see anyone use him now.
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Premium Supporter
As if I counted MANY variations that people don't use ... The only rare one is Jacqui v2, and that's debatable considering it's better against Jade's zoning variation overall (from my experience, considering I play against Jacqui v2 very often)
Who uses high born kitana, Tele Liu, Tele D’vorah or Projectile Jacqui?

Your post reeks of disingenuousness.
 

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
Kabals b12 string would cleanly beat Jades b2 in the beta. Had it happen multiple times and I raged lol. The hitbox and hurtbox are heavily in his favor.

Beta Kabal was a major PITA for me. I dunno if he was changed at all for full game. Rarely see anyone use him now.
He didn't. He still beats Jade both point blank and at range.
 

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
Who uses high born kitana, Tele Liu, Tele D’vorah or Projectile Jacqui?

Your post reeks of disingenuousness.
You realize that I noted 2 options for Liu right? 1 being available in both variations.

For the other variations : they fight zoning better, I see people switch to these quite often when they can't get in on my Jade.

Hell, even Honeybee switched to tele-Dvorah during our set.

But that's not pro enough?

I see no reason to forget about those variations when they clearly help you win against E.D Jade.

Finally : even if you counted in those characters you'd still be far from HALF of the cast. Which was my point.
 

OutworldKeith

Premium
Premium Supporter
I agree, with so many advancing normals that hit mid and lead to juggles, it wouldn't even be OP, since b2 leads to little damage in the end.

It would just need a slower startup to fit the fact that it's now a mid (mids being slower than highs, usually).
Are people really hyping up Jade’s b2? My sparring partner neutral crouch punishes my b2 with ease.

He plays Lao. Best case, I get b2 xx Amp Blaze Kick. Worst case, I eat 300 damage to the face lol.
 

mercureXI

Punching bag that throws fans !
Yeah. That move has its use (whiff punish for example), but is NOT "preventing people from getting in" ...if they have a clue about it being high and slow to recover on whiff.

d4 is way better at preventing people from getting in.

Too bad our best poke leads to nothing though.
 

OutworldKeith

Premium
Premium Supporter
Yeah. That move has its use (whiff punish for example), but is NOT "preventing people from getting in" ...if they have a clue about it being high and slow to recover on whiff.

d4 is way better at preventing people from getting in.

Too bad our best poke leads to nothing though.
It’s not that big a deal because meter regens on it’s own. You can get space to continue keep away from a d4.
 

seanpon

Noob
That could help indeed.

I'd rather have her 124 unsafe on block and juggle outside KB though. But considering the range on 12, that might be OP, idk.

Or at least b,f,2 MB option into juggle for low damage, but something that helps with her very low punish damage.


About Kabal, I don't really get what you mean about "how unsafe" his stuff is :

  • b1 is -3 on block
  • b12 is -7 on block
  • b12d2 is -4 on block
I said Jade wasn't that shafted in her frame data compared to characters like kotal, frost. Not kabal. People are really downplaying B2? Its actually one of her best tools, its not meant to be spammed, its reactionary and defensive. For a whiff punisher with so much range it leads to decent damage when you shadow kick amplify it. Look how effectively Waz used B2 here specifically against Sonya, the best rush down character in the game. I think Jade has certain issues that could be addressed by NRS. But downplaying her strong tools isn't the right thing to do.

 

OutworldKeith

Premium
Premium Supporter
I said Jade wasn't that shafted in her frame data compared to characters like kotal, frost. Not kabal. People are really downplaying B2? Its actually one of her best tools, its not meant to be spammed, its reactionary and defensive. For a whiff punisher with so much range it leads to decent damage when you shadow kick amplify it. Look how effectively Waz used B2 here specifically against Sonya, the best rush down character in the game. I think Jade has certain issues that could be addressed by NRS. But downplaying her strong tools isn't the right thing to do.

It’s good for what it does, but let’s not act like it’s one of the best tools in game. It’s not even the best whiff punisher. Scorpion’s b2 has a comparable range and leads to 300+ damage.
 

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
I said Jade wasn't that shafted in her frame data compared to characters like kotal, frost. Not kabal.
Well we want to compare her to Kabal, Scorpion, Geras, Sonya or Erron.

It’s good for what it does, but let’s not act like it’s one of the best tools in game. It’s not even the best whiff punisher. Scorpion’s b2 has a comparable range and leads to 300+ damage.
Keith, I really appreciate you staying reasonable in the severe upplay/downplay fight going on around here.
 

seanpon

Noob
Well we want to compare her to Kabal, Scorpion, Geras, Sonya or Erron.


Keith, I really appreciate you staying reasonable in the severe upplay/downplay fight going on around here.
yeah but come on, we all know these characters are going to be nerfed sooner or later. These characters due everything well and essentially have no flaws which isn't fair bc the majority of the cast due have certain issues to help balance them.

Isn't scorpions back 2 like 15 frames though, and he has to extend himself and leave himself vulnerable when doing this move. Jade's B2 doesn't do this.

If people keep neutral ducking your B2 while not holding block you are definitely doing something wrong, like using the move way more often than you should be if its that easy to read for your opponent.
 

GLoRToR

If you are not having fun doing something, stop it
yeah but come on, we all know these characters are going to be nerfed sooner or later. These characters due everything well and essentially have no flaws which isn't fair bc the majority of the cast due have certain issues to help balance them.

Isn't scorpions back 2 like 15 frames though, and he has to extend himself and leave himself vulnerable when doing this move. Jade's B2 doesn't do this.

If people keep neutral ducking your B2 while not holding block you are definitely doing something wrong, like using the move way more often than you should be if its that easy to read for your opponent.
Nah if they neutral duck they eat a bf2 online. I'm talking purely about a design standpoint. Jade's frames, compared to the current meta, are shit for the most part.