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Is Kotal Kahn the most humiliated character? (spoilers)

I feel like they should had brought back Human Cyrax in the story. he really could had changed things on how frost and the lin kuey.

Kotal though had very bad writing in mk11 there is no conclusion of his story. he gets beat up twice by shao khan then die and thats about it. sick character arc.
 

Juxtapose

Master
Raiden sent Scorpion and Subzero to the Lin Kuei factory to punch metallic robots with their bare hands. Instead of going there by himself and fry everything with 100kV. That's next level jobbing
Raiden can't go and do everything though. He's a god, but he's not invincible and able to be everywhere at once.

I also think this forum focuses too much on "jobbers" as opposed to "characters." It's a label that creates false expectations.
 
Raiden can't go and do everything though. He's a god, but he's not invincible and able to be everywhere at once.

I also think this forum focuses too much on "jobbers" as opposed to "characters." It's a label that creates false expectations.
Ι know just jk. Truth is Raiden is always the winner in the big picture. It's just that he is portrayed as unable to fight because reasons, or going karate on demon mobs, things that undermine his badassery. Since he is one of my very faves, I'd like to see him more powerful and respected.

EDIT:
To actually respond to your comment:
He could teleport to the factory and short-circuit everything and then return in the fire gardens in less than a minute. It's probably the easiest of his tasks, instead of risking his precious grandmasters to get hurt. But it had to be done as the necessary chapter for Subzero/Scorpion, which was such a wasted opportunity.
 
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Juxtapose

Master
Ι know just jk. Truth is Raiden is always the winner in the big picture. It's just that he is portrayed as unable to fight because reasons, or going karate on demon mobs, things that undermine his badassery. Since he is one of my very faves, I'd like to see him more powerful and respected.
Cool. Sadly, both in-universe and with fans, many seem to crap on him for his actions, even though he is trying to do everything right.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Relevant to this topic:



I don't think Kotal is showing up in future MKs. By the way he was treated, I think NRS wanted to make him the most uncool character possible and push him aside.
One of the comments in that vid calls him Kotal Kan't lmao

Way way way shitty how they treated him. They have this character who one destroys the Shokan king, cooks Rain, and dismembers Goro, only for him to go out like a bitch and get beat by everyone.
 

Juxtapose

Master
They have this character who one destroys the Shokan king, cooks Rain, and dismembers Goro, only for him to go out like a bitch and get beat by everyone.
Two of those three feats though he did under the influence of Blood Magic and was thus super-powered at the time.

He also didn't go out like a bitch, he was simply over matched by Shao Kahn who is generally one of the biggest and toughest antagonists in the franchise.

Kotal is a great character, but he has many flaws and both NetherRealm Studios and Shawn Kittelsen were not afraid to show them. This contrasts him nicely with Shao Kahn.

Assuming future games continue to use most of the franchise staple characters, I'd be very surprised if we do not see Kotal again. Not necessarily in the next game, but he's very likely to return.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Two of those three feats though he did under the influence of Blood Magic and was thus super-powered at the time.

He also didn't go out like a bitch, he was simply over matched by Shao Kahn who is generally one of the biggest and toughest antagonists in the franchise.

Kotal is a great character, but he has many flaws and both NetherRealm Studios and Shawn Kittelsen were not afraid to show them. This contrasts him nicely with Shao Kahn.

Assuming future games continue to use most of the franchise staple characters, I'd be very surprised if we do not see Kotal again. Not necessarily in the next game, but he's very likely to return.
Watch that video though, he was treated like shit the entire time. Also, in that video he points out that it is implied he killed Goro meaning that they fought again and he killed him. Meaning he has beaten Goro twice. Why does Kotal have to have his many many flaws shown in the spotlight when Kitana instantly unites outworld and can inexplicably beat Shao Kahn? I think it is pretty egregious the way Kotal is treated, even career jobbers are treated with more respect. Erron Black, Reptile, Baraka, etc are always getting their shit kicked in but they are never propped up to be competent, or get completely man handled and embarrassed, being decapitated off screen, and finally his own people that he took care of cheering over his execution in seconds afterwards. He wasn't even on the boat in the main game, they only brought him in Aftermath because they wouldn't dare decapitate Kitana, Liu, Cage, or Sonya.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
MAYBE Quan Chi in MKX is close to Kotal in terms of embarrasment, also being decapitated slow-mo, and having his balls literally mashed by Sonya.
 

Pizza

Thrill Kill
Two of those three feats though he did under the influence of Blood Magic and was thus super-powered at the time.

He also didn't go out like a bitch, he was simply over matched by Shao Kahn who is generally one of the biggest and toughest antagonists in the franchise.

Kotal is a great character, but he has many flaws and both NetherRealm Studios and Shawn Kittelsen were not afraid to show them. This contrasts him nicely with Shao Kahn.

Assuming future games continue to use most of the franchise staple characters, I'd be very surprised if we do not see Kotal again. Not necessarily in the next game, but he's very likely to return.
You're very optimistic
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
Also Kotal losing to Jade is inexplicably stupid and never should have happened. That is arguably as bad as Kitana vs Shao Kahn imo, Jade is like one step above Baraka / Erron / Reptile.
 

Pizza

Thrill Kill
MAYBE Quan Chi in MKX is close to Kotal in terms of embarrasment, also being decapitated slow-mo, and having his junk balls literally mashed by Sonya.
In a way, yes. In the old timeline Quan Chi was awesome, he only cared about himself, had his own plans...

In MK9 they kinda hinted at that, but then MKX (which supposedly covered MK4 in a few instances of the story mode) forgot about all that. Quan Chi wasn't very smart and he was actually working for Shinnok lol

This is why a multiverse would make more sense than one single timeline being this big of a mess.
 

Pizza

Thrill Kill
Also Kotal losing to Jade is inexplicably stupid and never should have happened. That is arguably as bad as Kitana vs Shao Kahn imo, Jade is like one step above Baraka / Erron / Reptile.
I can understand that he restrained himself and lost on purpose, but getting completely knocked out is just... lol what? It's unintentionally funny.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
In a way, yes. In the old timeline Quan Chi was awesome, he only cared about himself, had his own plans...

In MK9 they kinda hinted at that, but then MKX (which supposedly covered MK4 in a few instances of the story mode) forgot about all that. Quan Chi wasn't very smart and he was actually working for Shinnok lol

This is why a multiverse would make more sense than one single timeline being this big of a mess.
He was a ginormous pussy in MKX, he just took his execution lying down, groans so loud and pathetically in the like 57 or so scenes he's getting punched, the nut crushing was the worst though. Just sad.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I can understand that he restrained himself and lost on purpose, but getting completely knocked out is just... lol what? It's unintentionally funny.
I guess, but what about that cutscene in MKX when he summoned the hand cuffs and captured all fucking four of the kombat kids instantly? Can he not just do that anymore? Was that a temporary or special power? Worst part was they just LEAVE HIM, his own girlfriend has no respect for him. Freakin kicks his ass for stupid reason and just leaves him there. Yikes.
 

Juxtapose

Master
Watch that video though, he was treated like shit the entire time. Also, in that video he points out that it is implied he killed Goro meaning that they fought again and he killed him. Meaning he has beaten Goro twice. Why does Kotal have to have his many many flaws shown in the spotlight when Kitana instantly unites outworld and can inexplicably beat Shao Kahn? I think it is pretty egregious the way Kotal is treated, even career jobbers are treated with more respect. Erron Black, Reptile, Baraka, etc are always getting their shit kicked in but they are never propped up to be competent, or get completely man handled and embarrassed, being decapitated off screen, and finally his own people that he took care of cheering over his execution in seconds afterwards. He wasn't even on the boat in the main game, they only brought him in Aftermath because they wouldn't dare decapitate Kitana, Liu, Cage, or Sonya.
I rarely bother with random YouTube videos since they rarely ever get facts straight, and tend to push opinions as facts instead. I prefer to look at and examine the actual source material instead. In this case, that's the Story Modes for the games and the first party comics only.

Kotal wasn't though. He was routinely good at making bad decisions and this often cost him and created repercussions for his actions. He also placed himself in a position of power with his little coup, a position he ultimately was not well suited for.

That's one example of the video being wrong. Kotal did not kill Goro in the official story canon. He cut his arms off only, which Goro survived.

Kitana is, and always has been, a better leader than Kotal. She was a strong leader in the original timeline, and she worked well with most the protagonists and was more compassionate, creating trust, in this timeline. Kotal's first act of leadership was to rule a primitive Earthrealm aztec culture as a false god, and they all died due to his ignorance. He didn't do that on purpose mind you, but it's the start of his troubles as a leader due to poor decision making, and he continues to do this throughout his life. It's a character flaw, and certainly not an unrealistic one.

I do agree Kitana defeating Shao Kahn in single combat is a stretch.

Those "jobbers" are competent, they simply never had the power lust that Kotal did and thus were never in the position that Kotal placed himself in.

His own warriors cheering for Shao was indeed odd, though they would have died otherwise and they did capitulate to Shao when Kotal was captured in the Tarkatan Camp. Considering how well the Osh-Tek were fairing against the Tarkata during Mileena's rebellion, they didn't seem near as tough as Shao's typical forces. Outworld also seems to thrive off of the "might makes right" mentality regardless of who is in charge, so that may have something to do with it as well.

Kotal was on Charon's ship in "Aftermath" because his back was healed enough at the time. We don't even know if he was placed in the Soul Chamber in the main game's timeline before alterations happened, and his back was the reason he was absent. Sindel wanted to make an example of Kitana, Liu had his legs shattered (and then we don't know his fate after that), Cage and Sonya are sent to be breeding stock for the rest of their lives.

You ask me, it's Cage and Sonya that got the shit end of the stick there. Forced to have children who would be raised to fight and die for sport...

Let's look at another character closely related to Kotal's story and development: Mileena. She was slapped around through the two games she was in, never had a single onscreen victory because she's a non-playable antagonist, and her own impulsiveness and instability constantly created her own problems and led to her own downfall. She's executed as well, and eaten out from the inside by carnivorous insects! She's also the legit heir of the Outworld throne, and lost that, and was defeated by someone lesser in power and status than Shao.

She has excellent character development in the comics, but is used and played by Reiko and then enslaved by Havik, only to be deserted by Ermac a second time!

By your statements, and given the similarities between the character's story arcs, Mileena also got "shit on" the entire time, in many instances worse than Kotal. She's also an extremely popular character, yet no one seems to be freaking out story-wise for her. It's just the way story telling goes when they have so many characters to focus on.

Kotal was never a main character of the Story, he was a supporting character (as was Mileena). He had some solid screen time, some good character development with realistic character flaws, and he did some pretty cool things during the story. He is one of the coolest of the new characters, he simply isn't up there with Chosen One status.

You're very optimistic
We'll ultimately find out if I'm right in x amount of years.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I rarely bother with random YouTube videos since they rarely ever get facts straight, and tend to push opinions as facts instead. I prefer to look at and examine the actual source material instead. In this case, that's the Story Modes for the games and the first party comics only.

Kotal wasn't though. He was routinely good at making bad decisions and this often cost him and created repercussions for his actions. He also placed himself in a position of power with his little coup, a position he ultimately was not well suited for.

That's one example of the video being wrong. Kotal did not kill Goro in the official story canon. He cut his arms off only, which Goro survived.

Kitana is, and always has been, a better leader than Kotal. She was a strong leader in the original timeline, and she worked well with most the protagonists and was more compassionate, creating trust, in this timeline. Kotal's first act of leadership was to rule a primitive Earthrealm aztec culture as a false god, and they all died due to his ignorance. He didn't do that on purpose mind you, but it's the start of his troubles as a leader due to poor decision making, and he continues to do this throughout his life. It's a character flaw, and certainly not an unrealistic one.

I do agree Kitana defeating Shao Kahn in single combat is a stretch.

Those "jobbers" are competent, they simply never had the power lust that Kotal did and thus were never in the position that Kotal placed himself in.

His own warriors cheering for Shao was indeed odd, though they would have died otherwise and they did capitulate to Shao when Kotal was captured in the Tarkatan Camp. Considering how well the Osh-Tek were fairing against the Tarkata during Mileena's rebellion, they didn't seem near as tough as Shao's typical forces. Outworld also seems to thrive off of the "might makes right" mentality regardless of who is in charge, so that may have something to do with it as well.

Kotal was on Charon's ship in "Aftermath" because his back was healed enough at the time. We don't even know if he was placed in the Soul Chamber in the main game's timeline before alterations happened, and his back was the reason he was absent. Sindel wanted to make an example of Kitana, Liu had his legs shattered (and then we don't know his fate after that), Cage and Sonya are sent to be breeding stock for the rest of their lives.

You ask me, it's Cage and Sonya that got the shit end of the stick there. Forced to have children who would be raised to fight and die for sport...

Let's look at another character closely related to Kotal's story and development: Mileena. She was slapped around through the two games she was in, never had a single onscreen victory because she's a non-playable antagonist, and her own impulsiveness and instability constantly created her own problems and led to her own downfall. She's executed as well, and eaten out from the inside by carnivorous insects! She's also the legit heir of the Outworld throne, and lost that, and was defeated by someone lesser in power and status than Shao.

She has excellent character development in the comics, but is used and played by Reiko and then enslaved by Havik, only to be deserted by Ermac a second time!

By your statements, and given the similarities between the character's story arcs, Mileena also got "shit on" the entire time, in many instances worse than Kotal. She's also an extremely popular character, yet no one seems to be freaking out story-wise for her. It's just the way story telling goes when they have so many characters to focus on.

Kotal was never a main character of the Story, he was a supporting character (as was Mileena). He had some solid screen time, some good character development with realistic character flaws, and he did some pretty cool things during the story. He is one of the coolest of the new characters, he simply isn't up there with Chosen One status.



We'll ultimately find out if I'm right in x amount of years.
I would never argue that Mileena didn't get shit on though, as far as his abilities as a leader are concerned, I'm only talking about his fighting abilities. People were definitely screeching about Mileena in 2015 though to be clear. I know the intro dialogues aren't cannon but they do imply that Kotal actually did kill Goro. Him being on the ship in Aftermath can be explained by any plot reason, but I genuinely think he was there just to die instead of someone else, obviously that can't be proven though. I don't even mind Kotal being killed, just off screen and having his people abandon him? wtf? Scorpion, a character I like a lot was killed by D'Vorah who is my second least favorite character, but he wasn't treated like an absolute tool and it made sense how it happened.

edit: Also, if the intro dialogues by chance are cannon and Goro became Onaga's vessel and Kotal did kill him like Sheeva's intros outright state, that means he beat a powered up Goro, which would never be shown in game of course, or Jacqui would just kill Goro instead.
 

Juxtapose

Master
I was here during the Mortal Kombat X days, and I remember some fans being displeased with Mileena's death. I don't recall it being a huge outrage though. Certainly not the outrage we have now with her not being in the game, and her "moves" being given to Kitana. Even with that, as a Mileena main, I don't see that as an "insult" or misuse of the character, I see it as an opportunity to enjoy aspects of the character in a title she's not actually in.

I do personally think that, between Mortal Kombat (2011) and Mortal Kombat XL, Mileena had some of the most significant character development, especially in the comics, however I might be biased there.

For Versus intro dialogues, yeah, I would never take them as canon until things actually happen in canon story form. Best to take all those with grains of salt. Large grains. They're very fun and entertaining though.

Scorpion is my original favourite franchise character, and was my original main back in the original trilogy. I actually thought present Hanzo's death was kinda anti-climatic. Stabbed/poisoned by D'Vorah seemed a weak end to the character who could "make a god beg for mercy."

But that's what they wanted for the story, and they wanted to do more with Past Scorpion it seems. It is what it is, and in Mortal Kombat 11, even Scorpion was in a supporting role.
 
1) ... I do agree Kitana defeating Shao Kahn in single combat is a stretch.
Nice read and interesting points/facts overall, but to this point I say:

1) Kitana one vs one against Shao Kahn should never, EVER go any way other than Kitana's instant death. It's not just a bit of a stretch, it's complete nonsense. They are not, and never have been in the same league. She has openly said in prior games that she could not face him alone - She would require the aid of others to take him down. MK11 (and MKX for that matter) has power scaling issues all over the place. It's very much in the similar vein of Sonya vs Quan Chi, and almost just as bad as the mary-sue Cassie beating Shinnok (bit of a theme here but I digress, especially with Kitana/Mileena fans being among the most toxic in this fanbase).

Scorpion, a character I like a lot was killed by D'Vorah
This was horrendous writing, where was Noob Saibot's vengeance? Another character arc / story potential wasted, don't even get me started on Noob / Scorpion.

Relevant to this topic:

Good stuff, I was going to link this myself - FightersDen makes good points about a lot of characters. Here you have a character with serious ability, a genuine powerhouse used as nothing more than a benchmark to put over other characters by taking L's (And never shows his abilities) - this is "jobber" status. On the topic of his feats - he solo'd an ENTIRE army, as well as the other feats mentioned. Regardless of his 'powered up' status, he still had legitimate credibility by killing Gorbak and giving Goro the ultimate beatdown - solo.

His feats alone put him above many of the cast - there is no way he should have taken as many L's as he did, and to the characters he took them from. Like I said in an earlier comment though, Shao is one of the very few characters that could legitimately kill Kotal - on that note, at least they gave Shao a little redemption in aftermath.

Slight derail, just want to put here that they had better not do Havik like they have done Kotal if they put him in this game. They've ruined Kotal for me now.
 

ticklebandit!

Apprentice
I haven't read any of the comments in this thread, but Kotal's alternate costume should have been him in a wheel chair.

For real tho he got rektd in Aftermath. But honestly, he was retconned out of the blue in MKX to have existed prominently in the MK universe and that always bugged me. At least he did some cool shit and was a interesting Kahn for a bit. I'm a Baraka fan and look at him in MKX, NPC killed off in a cut scene to hype D'vorah. Some story lines do you dirty like that.

And the character chapter way of telling the story favors teaching new players different characters over plot, reason, and "character power levels". I don't like it but I'm use to it and try to enjoy the smaller parts of MK characters stylishly slicing up goons.
 

Juxtapose

Master
1) Kitana one vs one against Shao Kahn should never, EVER go any way other than Kitana's instant death. It's not just a bit of a stretch, it's complete nonsense. They are not, and never have been in the same league. She has openly said in prior games that she could not face him alone - She would require the aid of others to take him down. MK11 (and MKX for that matter) has power scaling issues all over the place. It's very much in the similar vein of Sonya vs Quan Chi, and almost just as bad as the mary-sue Cassie beating Shinnok (bit of a theme here but I digress, especially with Kitana/Mileena fans being among the most toxic in this fanbase).
Generally speaking, I agree with you re: Kitana. Having said that, nothing is impossible, and even in a "9-1" match up, on very rare occasions, the underdog wins. Very rare. Upsets do happen.

Quan Chi was under-powered when Sonya Blade defeated him in the NetherRealm War, as Shinnok had been removed.

For Cassie and Shinnok/Corrupted Shinnok, yeah, Green Energy. A convenient plot device at any rate, but it is an "explanation."

Keep in mind though, we're discussing a plot that's essentially a male soap opera who's dialogue and narrative has one primary purpose: to be this.

The story telling method for Mortal Kombat games have been the same since Mortal Kombat vs DC Universe: You have about a dozen Chapters and you play as specific characters in them (almost always "good" guys), and that character will always "win" that particular fight. The set up for the fights, and the dialogue, are pretty contrived and silly (but also quite fun).

In terms of power balance issues, Kitana vs Shao is a legit one. Many others I see people complain about though really aren't, and are more a reflection of the poster's unrealistic expectations of a character, or flawed perceptions on that character's role/contribution/purpose to the narrative simply because they love that character.
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I was here during the Mortal Kombat X days, and I remember some fans being displeased with Mileena's death. I don't recall it being a huge outrage though. Certainly not the outrage we have now with her not being in the game, and her "moves" being given to Kitana. Even with that, as a Mileena main, I don't see that as an "insult" or misuse of the character, I see it as an opportunity to enjoy aspects of the character in a title she's not actually in.

I do personally think that, between Mortal Kombat (2011) and Mortal Kombat XL, Mileena had some of the most significant character development, especially in the comics, however I might be biased there.

For Versus intro dialogues, yeah, I would never take them as canon until things actually happen in canon story form. Best to take all those with grains of salt. Large grains. They're very fun and entertaining though.

Scorpion is my original favourite franchise character, and was my original main back in the original trilogy. I actually thought present Hanzo's death was kinda anti-climatic. Stabbed/poisoned by D'Vorah seemed a weak end to the character who could "make a god beg for mercy."

But that's what they wanted for the story, and they wanted to do more with Past Scorpion it seems. It is what it is, and in Mortal Kombat 11, even Scorpion was in a supporting role.
Hanzo's death was anticlimactic, seems weird that Sub-Zero would just leave him too, if he would have stayed, D'Vorah wouldn't have been able to sneak up on him, plus between the two of them, she wouldn't have escaped. Past Scorpion might have even been turned still, although it's still likely that it would take the death of his future self to turn him. I thought past Scorpion coming to his senses before making more tragic mistakes and holding Hanzo as he dies was a nice moment and one of the few times NRS writers have pulled off an ounce of subtlety and emotion. I think the moment would have been more powerful if Scorpion actually did kill Hanzo in a rage fit and that is what snapped him out of it. Scorpion is a very tragic character so that would be appropriate for him. Contrasts how different Scorpion is from Hanzo too, even the way they talk to him. Sub-Zero calls future Hanzo "Grandmaster Hassashi" and him and Raiden both clearly have no respect for Scorpion (why would they?)

I would have rather Scorpion died because of his past mistakes. He was almost killed in the second tournament by Kuai Liang for killing Bi Han, but was indirectly saved by the cyborgs, In MK11 Raiden was ready to tear him to shreads for killing Bi Han and breaking his word but Liu Kang was still willing to hear him out. Would have rather him died from past Scorpion, past Kuai Liang (although I guess he was a cyborg at this point), or Noob Saibot, kind of looping back to the fact that Hanzo never can escape his past sins. I know people hate the poster boy, but he is easily the most fleshed out character and deserves to be the main character of a game at some point, and I say this as mainly a Sub-Zero fan.