Is Kotal Kahn the most humiliated character? (spoilers)

[Dankster Morgan]

Hey Kotal still smashed Jade, at least NRS gave him that.

Even though I'd argue that dumb bitch is a big part to him being crippled and possibly even killed. In the story of MK11, he actually beat Shao Kahn in a 1v1. Shao only crippled him after Jade knocked him out and basically served him up to Shao. If he hadn't got the shit beat out of him by Jade it would make sense that he could beat Shao Kahn again because he wouldn't be hurt. He also wouldn't have spared Shao Kahn like Kitana inexplicably did, meaning they would only have to fight Sindel in Aftermath and probably would have beat her. Jade shouldn't have protected the Tarkarkatans, from Kotal's POV, fuck them. They were the army of his greatest enemy Mileena and with Baraka back in the mix (who was probably Mileena's best ally before D'Vorah killed him), why wouldn't he see that as a problem that needed to be dealt with? So yeah, fuck Jade.

 

[Juxtapose]

Hey Kotal still smashed Jade, at least NRS gave him that.

Even though I'd argue that dumb bitch is a big part to him being crippled and possibly even killed. In the story of MK11, he actually beat Shao Kahn in a 1v1. Shao only crippled him after Jade knocked him out and basically served him up to Shao. If he hadn't got the shit beat out of him by Jade it would make sense that he could beat Shao Kahn again because he wouldn't be hurt. He also wouldn't have spared Shao Kahn like Kitana inexplicably did, meaning they would only have to fight Sindel in Aftermath and probably would have beat her. Jade shouldn't have protected the Tarkarkatans, from Kotal's POV, fuck them. They were the army of his greatest enemy Mileena and with Baraka back in the mix (who was probably Mileena's best ally before D'Vorah killed him), why wouldn't he see that as a problem that needed to be dealt with? So yeah, fuck Jade.

Interestingly though, the Shokan wouldn't ally without the Tarkata joining as well. So no Tarkata, no Outworld alliance. No Outworld alliance, Kronika would likely have won.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Interestingly though, the Shokan wouldn't ally without the Tarkata joining as well. So no Tarkata, no Outworld alliance. No Outworld alliance, Kronika would likely have won.

Nah because Fire God Liu Kang did most of the work anyways, once he's on the scene, the jobber army doesn't matter. The shokan allied with Sindel instantaneously and the Tarkatans were no shows. She didn't even kill Sheeva as far as I could tell, just knocked her out. Should have been pretty easy to catch her lie as far as I can tell.

Also Aftermath is stupid because the Tarkarans, Lin Kuei, and Shirai Ryu should have been there on the boats, likely would have been useful vs Shao and Sindel. Sindel didn't seem nearly as strong as her MK9 version and Shao Kahn obviously isn't now for whatever reason.

 

[Juxtapose]

Yes he did, but Fire God Liu Kang needed to be created first. At the time, the combined efforts of the Earthrealm/Outworld alliance was enough of a threat that Dark Emperor Liu Kang upped his power by absorbing Past Liu Kang's soul and then intervened. This seemed to allow Past Liu Kang to be revived and in control when Raiden gave up his power.

In "Aftermath," Dark Emperor Liu Kang still went to interveen, but with no increased power and no past soul. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Raiden gave him his powers, and if it would have "saved" him or not. I think the results would have been different.

For the Shokan allying with Sindel, yeah, the only thing I can think of there is that they did know, and bowed to her since she would have killed them all. Warriors of the caliber of Goro and Sheeva are not the norm for the Shokan, they got their butts handed to them a few times in the comics. I think it was more choosing survival there.

The Tarkata were also on Kitana's boat during "Aftermath." They switched sides when she was dethroned as well. But yes, the absence of the Shirai Ryu and Lin Kuei were odd.

 

[EarlyReflections]

I loved the concept of the Outworld civil war. It was, in my opinion, much stronger and more interesting than the Shinnok arc.

Mileena and Kotal fighting for outworld's control is more fitting than Kitana being ruler anyway. Outworld's a mess that can't be saved. Kitana should be into edenian stuff.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Yes he did, but Fire God Liu Kang needed to be created first. At the time, the combined efforts of the Earthrealm/Outworld alliance was enough of a threat that Dark Emperor Liu Kang upped his power by absorbing Past Liu Kang's soul and then intervened. This seemed to allow Past Liu Kang to be revived and in control when Raiden gave up his power.

In "Aftermath," Dark Emperor Liu Kang still went to interveen, but with no increased power and no past soul. It would have been interesting to see what would have happened if Raiden gave him his powers, and if it would have "saved" him or not. I think the results would have been different.

For the Shokan allying with Sindel, yeah, the only thing I can think of there is that they did know, and bowed to her since she would have killed them all. Warriors of the caliber of Goro and Sheeva are not the norm for the Shokan, they got their butts handed to them a few times in the comics. I think it was more choosing survival there.

The Tarkata were also on Kitana's boat during "Aftermath." They switched sides when she was dethroned as well. But yes, the absence of the Shirai Ryu and Lin Kuei were odd.

Raiden can teleport in the Neatherrealm still no? Wouldn't he still be able to create Fire God LK?

 

[Juxtapose]

Mileena and Kotal fighting for outworld's control is more fitting than Kitana being ruler anyway. Outworld's a mess that can't be saved. Kitana should be into edenian stuff.

True, though keep in mind, Edenia is merged with Outworld.

Raiden can teleport in the Neatherrealm still no? Wouldn't he still be able to create Fire God LK?

I suppose he could, but keep in mind Revenant Liu Kang is in Kronika's Keep in the NetherRealm. Since Raiden isn't using Shinnok's Amulet due to its corruptive influence, I don't think he'd stand much chance of getting to him.

As I recall, in Mortal Kombat 11's Story Mode, rescuing (Past) Liu Kang became an objective of the alliance after his abduction by Kronika, and Raiden didn't just teleport there and yoink him free.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

True, though keep in mind, Edenia is merged with Outworld.



I suppose he could, but keep in mind Revenant Liu Kang is in Kronika's Keep in the NetherRealm. Since Raiden isn't using Shinnok's Amulet due to its corruptive influence, I don't think he'd stand much chance of getting to him.

As I recall, in Mortal Kombat 11's Story Mode, rescuing (Past) Liu Kang became an objective of the alliance after his abduction by Kronika, and Raiden didn't just teleport there and yoink him free.

I just mean for arguments sake he probably could yoink him out ya know

 

[Juxtapose]

I just mean for arguments sake he probably could yoink him out ya know

It's possible, sure. You'd think if he could have though, that he would have done so, especially after he learned of Liu Kang's importance against Kronika.

Another thing of note, in this timeline at least, the only time non-Dark Raiden ever teleported to NetherRealm solo was to talk, and when aggression against him would likely not be imminent.

That certainly would not be the case here.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

It's possible, sure. You'd think if he could have though, that he would have done so, especially after he learned of Liu Kang's importance against Kronika.

Another thing of note, in this timeline at least, the only time non-Dark Raiden ever teleported to NetherRealm solo was to talk, and when aggression against him would likely not be imminent.

That certainly would not be the case here.

I think Raiden in particular is really stupid and incompetent but questioning the logic of the characters in these games could be done at any turn in the story, I'm just talking in theory if they actually did what made sense.

 

[deathstroke187]

i mean he got better threated than jax , jax loss to everyone even to younger self. force to wear a space stripper suit and do absolutely nothing the second half of the story.

Kotal at least got Jade.

 

[Juxtapose]

I think Raiden in particular is really stupid and incompetent but questioning the logic of the characters in these games could be done at any turn in the story, I'm just talking in theory if they actually did what made sense.

Fair enough.

For Raiden, what of his actions makes you feel that he's stupid and incompetent?

Personally I don't think he is, but I do think he's overburned and was over his head multiple times. The problem for him was, there wasn't anyone more capable available to take his place, since the Elder Gods didn't care unless The Rules were being broken.

 

[Juxtapose]

i mean he got better threated than jax , jax loss to everyone even to younger self. force to wear a space stripper suit and do absolutely nothing the second half of the story.

Kotal at least got Jade.

Present Jax was pretty psyhologically messed up though.

 

[NHDR]

Love the character and he's been my main since MKX, but his representation in the story is awful. He sucks, basically.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Fair enough.

For Raiden, what of his actions makes you feel that he's stupid and incompetent?

Personally I don't think he is, but I do think he's overburned and was over his head multiple times. The problem for him was, there wasn't anyone more capable available to take his place, since the Elder Gods didn't care unless The Rules were being broken.

In MK9 he let everyone die and killed Liu Kang ON ACCIDENT. When he was killed in the battle of armageddon and said "he must win", he was too stupid to make a message clear enough for HIMSELF to understand. He had complete loyalty and admiration from everyone but messed it up.

 

[deathstroke187]

Present Jax was pretty psyhologically messed up though.

im not gonna go in dept about his PTSD and shit but i really believe the writers fuck up Jax story and character. Instead of been an American patriotic hero and real friend of Sonya his just a jobber who does nothing in the whole story besides elavating jacqui arc and even that doesnt really matters cause she also does nothing of importance in the story.

 

[Juxtapose]

In MK9 he let everyone die and killed Liu Kang ON ACCIDENT. When he was killed in the battle of armageddon and said "he must win", he was too stupid to make a message clear enough for HIMSELF to understand. He had complete loyalty and admiration from everyone but messed it up.

How did he let them die though? He was beseeching the Elder Gods for aid in their loosing conflict at the time of Sindel's rampage and was unaware of what was going on.

He did accidentally kill Liu Kang, yet interestingly, this may not have been an accident at all and may have been part of Kronika's manipulation.

During the Battle of Armageddon, Dark Raiden was beat up badly, and seconds away from death. That hasty message was a last ditch effort to prevent complete destruction, and it had to be accomplished in very short order.

 

[Juxtapose]

im not gonna go in dept about his PTSD and shit but i really believe the writers fuck up Jax story and character. Instead of been an American patriotic hero and real friend of Sonya his just a jobber who does nothing in the whole story besides elavating jacqui arc and even that doesnt really matters cause she also does nothing of importance in the story.

In fairness though, I think they did a very nice contrast between the confident and take-action Past Jax, and the PTSD Present Jax.

It shows you how drastically a person can change when shit happens, and how they can narrow focus and obsess on one to two very specific things, creating their own self fulfilling prophecies. I found it very realistic, given the context of the story.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

How did he let them die though? He was beseeching the Elder Gods for aid in their loosing conflict at the time of Sindel's rampage and was unaware of what was going on.

He did accidentally kill Liu Kang, yet interestingly, this may not have been an accident at all and may have been part of Kronika's manipulation.

During the Battle of Armageddon, Dark Raiden was beat up badly, and seconds away from death. That hasty message was a last ditch effort to prevent complete destruction, and it had to be accomplished in very short order.

The elder gods just told him to fuck off though so it was a waste. Liu Kang may or may not have been an accident but I still think Raiden could have taken Liu Kang down without baking him, coulda grabbed him, teleported him far away, came back, anything really. Before Raiden died in Armageddon he coulda at least specified who "he" was or what "he" had to win. Woulda taken the same amount of time, coulda also kept from sending Lao to his death by misunderstanding his own words.

Also always been mega salty that he saved Smoke and let the cyborgs take Sub-Zero, fuck him.

 

[deathstroke187]

In fairness though, I think they did a very nice contrast between the confident and take-action Past Jax, and the PTSD Present Jax.

It shows you how drastically a person can change when shit happens, and how they can narrow focus and obsess on one to two very specific things, creating their own self fulfilling prophecies. I found it very realistic, given the context of the story.

i like your point of view , i would like to discuss this further in the future.

 

[Juxtapose]

The elder gods just told him to fuck off though so it was a waste. Liu Kang may or may not have been an accident but I still think Raiden could have taken Liu Kang down without baking him, coulda grabbed him, teleported him far away, came back, anything really. Before Raiden died in Armageddon he coulda at least specified who "he" was or what "he" had to win. Woulda taken the same amount of time, coulda also kept from sending Lao to his death by misunderstanding his own words.

Also always been mega salty that he saved Smoke and let the cyborgs take Sub-Zero, fuck him.

Absolutely correct, they did, but he was hoping for a better answer and he was trying to enlist aid. While he was doing that, his allies were attacked and wiped out. I don't see how the fault of that can be laid at his feet. He wasn't neglecting them or putting them in a position carelessly at all.

Oh I absolutely agree that he could have re: Liu Kang. Up until Mortal Kombat 11, I thought he just royally screwed up there due to desperation, but with what we know about Kronika continually manipulating him and Liu Kang through multiple timelines, I suspect this was no accident and Liu Kang's death here happened by her design. That's simply my theory based on the direction the story took, I can't prove it.

Again, perhaps, but I think the state the character was in made how he sent the message very believable.

For the Cyber Lin Kuei, I don't recall him letting them take anyone. He saw a vision showing Smoke was in danger and saved him, but by consequence, that permitted Sub-Zero's abduction instead. I loved the contrast of parallels, despite Raiden trying to change things.

i like your point of view , i would like to discuss this further in the future.

I'd be happy to. I always enjoying breaking characters down and really trying to get to the bottom of their motivations and the reasoning behind their actions. It usually reveals details about them that you don't see at first glance.

Interestingly, this applies to people in real life as well.

 

[xKMMx]

At this point it makes sense that he is a bitch gameplay wise cause they sure as hell go out of their way to make him look like a bitch in story modes. So yea the answer is yes. Other than Raiden who is a gicantic Fuck up.

 

[EarlyReflections]

Raiden sent Scorpion and Subzero to the Lin Kuei factory to punch metallic robots with their bare hands. Instead of going there by himself and fry everything with 100kV. That's next level jobbing

 

[Espio]

Kung Jin loss isn't as bad as people say imo. His cousin (Lao) beat Shang and Quan Chi 2 v 1, trained by the monks who trained Lao and Liu Kang, and is about the same age as they were when they fought in tournaments. Why not? Sub-Zero loss is excusable too because I'm assuming he got iced off screen in MKX.

However the Sheeva, D'Vorah, Jacqui, and Jade losses are unforgivable.

Why is Sheeva unforgivable? Sheeva defeated all other male Shokan for the crown. Kotal was also weakened when fighting her.

Jade fight should have been depicted far differently though as in like they fought and Kotal and Jade were at a standstill. Jade is skilled but I don't think she could trounce Kotal the way she did at most she would have stalled him from killing the Tarkatans and then have Shao Kahn seize them.


I agree about Kung Jin though, the Shaolin monks were able to beat Goro, Quan Chi, Shang Tsung and even Shao Kahn so people making a big deal about Kung Jin beating Kotal seems a reach.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Why is Sheeva unforgivable? Sheeva defeated all other male Shokan for the crown. Kotal was also weakened when fighting her.

Jade fight should have been depicted far differently though as in like they fought and Kotal and Jade were at a standstill. Jade is skilled but I don't think she could trounce Kotal the way she did at most she would have stalled him from killing the Tarkatans and then have Shao Kahn seize them.


I agree about Kung Jin though, the Shaolin monks were able to beat Goro, Quan Chi, Shang Tsung and even Shao Kahn so people making a big deal about Kung Jin beating Kotal seems a reach.

I'm just used to Sheeva being a Reptile tier jobber in 9. And other than Goro I don't see any of the shokans being really impressive. Sub-Zero oofed Goro and Kintaro at the same time (as a cyborg which he views as his weaker form), I just dont think the shokans are particularly impressive outside of Goro ofc. I think they're really strong but only against other one dimensional brute characters if thay makes sense. He was injured though, which I suppose is fair enough to explain his loss to Sheeva. Agree about Jade, I dont see her as a week character but not as strong as Kotal imo. Kotal gets bodied a shit ton but still has some decent feats like beating Shao Kahn the first time, Goro, Goro's dad I think, and the usual jobber squad like Kano and Kollector and those types of people. I could see Kung Jin vs Kotal going either way