Improving the community: Why we MUST share our tech!

Discussion in 'Fighting Philosophy' started by Juggs, Apr 26, 2018.

By Juggs on Apr 26, 2018 at 12:41 AM
  1. Juggs

    Juggs Lose without excuses
    Lead Moderator

    This topic has been discussed throughout the history of the fighting game community. I even made a very similar thread on the subject a little while back.

    This applies more to the NRS community than any other community, at least in my experience.

    The benefit of withholding tech is temporary. The thought process is very simple, and it even makes complete logical sense. If I am going to compete in tournaments, why would I expose all this tech that I put in the work to find and essentially expose people to how they can beat me? Or to put it in another way, let people benefit from MY work in the laboratory.

    What players don’t realize is the long term effects sharing EVERYTHING has. The more competitive a player is, the more likely they’re going to stick around. A great way to help ensure people are competent, is to share tech. But not only share tech, but even showing ways around it. If there’s a handful of top players that only share tech with each other, those players are going to be so far ahead of the curve compared to everyone else. To these players, how can this not be a good thing? Well, because your game is going to die out and the only people that will be left playing are you handful of top players. This means less and less tournaments, less and less entrants, less exposure, less hype, less competition, and ultimately, less money.

    There’s actually been psychological studies in relation to gaming and winning. It actually shows that if someone isn’t winning at least 30% of the time, they will lose interest. They will lose motivation to improve, they will lose motivation to even play. In my experience, this is absolutely true. I’ve been on both ends. I’ve completely obliterated players, and I’ve been obliterated. I noticed when I’m destroying someone, they slowly stop “trying”. I can always tell when they’re about to stop playing. So, I started sandbagging a little. Letting my opponent win a few more games. And they ended up staying much longer.

    Now, I’m not necessarily suggesting you let people beat you. The point I’m making is that if you want your game to thrive for as long as possible, the majority of the players need to be competent. I know the logical response to this would be “well, that’s not my problem or responsibility. They should work harder!”, or something of that nature. But if all you had to do in order to keep YOUR game from dying was to share your technology, your matchup strategies, and just general knowledge of the game with EVERYONE and not just a select few, why would you NOT do it?

    Obviously, you can do whatever you want. But this really became clear to me with the release of DBFZ. Everyone was sharing everything anywhere they could, and they STILL are! People were even highly demanding a hub/forum, much like TYM, so that all the tech and knowledge could be archived. There was THAT much tech being shared, there IS that much tech being shared. And guess what? DBFZ is thriving with competition and entry numbers. Of course, the community isn’t perfect. That “withhold tech” mentality still exists, just not as concentrated as it is in smaller communities like ours.

    It’s extremely difficult for me to explain the long term benefits of sharing tech. If people don’t immediately see the results, they don’t immediately see the benefits. That’s another psychological effect we humans have, especially in this day and age. We have been conditioned to constantly and consistently have instant gratification. That’s not necessarily anyone’s “fault”, just a product of the times, technology, and how convenient everything has become. It has even been explained as a reason for the higher percentage of unhealthy people we have today than we used to. If people who diet and exercise for a week or two don’t see results, they give up. Because they have been conditioned to not see the long term effects or benefits.

    Anyway, I know I’m a nobody who is irrelevant, but I really do think this would help our community. I’ve been thinking about this for awhile, honestly for years, it just seems to keep getting worse and worse with each new game. A lot of top players are driven to isolation because of the rabid nature of our community, and that’s another thing we need to address and change. Both sides play a part here. Driving away top players will only ever hurt YOUR game, your skill, the competition, etc. And top players, you being insulated and demanding an echo chamber really isn’t bettering the community. It honestly isn’t even benefiting YOU, at least not in the long run. You NEED the non top players, otherwise your game eventually dies. And the non top players NEED the top players so they can get better more quickly and stay competitive. Otherwise, everyone loses interest, meaning... everyone loses.
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Discussion in 'Fighting Philosophy' started by Juggs, Apr 26, 2018.

    1. Cursa
      Yeah, it's easy to see both sides of the coin.

      On one hand, you want all the tech to be shared around in order to both level up everyone competitively and ensure that the game remains interesting and fresh.

      On the other hand, you can see how it can make a difference in a tournament. It's not like every bit of tech is super game changing, and those that are are usually quickly found and shared, but you can see how it might've made a difference in a tourney if some people knew about Mikey's fuzzyable mix cough cough sonic cough cough.

      I personally share everything I find if I can because I think it helps the community as a whole and helps them level up their MU's. Then if they quit a game against me because they're sick of losing they only have themselves to blame - I gave everything I could to help and they've given up, nothing more to do.

      I expect most people to do the same as I do. I follow basically every discussion for every character in IJ2 simply because I want to know that tech and how to beat it. That in itself is also important tech. What if you find some tech, don't share it, and I figure out how to beat it? Now you don't know how to counter my solution, which you might have had you shared the tech in the first place, since someone might have informed you.

      So yeah, I think sharing tech is important. Withholding it seems like a very short term plan and not sustainable for a game's life, the community's interest, your opponent's enjoyment or your own skill.
    2. Protagonist_1
      Thanks Cursa for the shoutout!

      For my background, back in injustice 1, I got the game after NEC when PPJ beat Tyrant (that match was the primary reason the game got a 2nd year at Evo).

      I wanted to main Cyborg, but when I went to the character forums it was difficult to find matchup info, or other details. One thing that did help was @Relaxedstate guide on Cyborg, which I read like a bible and kept playing and practicing. I still kept playing well into MKX's life span (shoutout to @SHIV123_ , @Crusty , and @meanzuga ), and I even played in my first online tournament during a period were many considered the game dead.

      So for injustice 2, knowing how difficult it was to get information, or find footage of people playing Cyborg, I didn't want anyone to go through what I did. It's why I try to upload match footage at least once a week, update matchup threads, and contribute to discussion in the Cyborg forums whenever possible.

      I plan to go to Evo, and more than likely people in my pool will study my footage. That's perfectly okay. I share what I know, and watch a ton of match footage to see how people block, tech roll, and even escape the setups I have learned. It forces you to find creative ways to approach matchups, and I have become way better because of it.
    3. Cursa
      Also, I'm not one for "honour" or anything like that, but there's something to be said for a person who enters a tournament playing one of the lowest tier characters in the game while also simultaneously sharing every secret and nuance he has. On paper it looks hard, but in reality, if you win (which I hope you do), then it just goes to show how far your skill has come due to sharing said tech.
      Darth Mao likes this.
    4. Cursa
      Also I think this thread is an extension of the thread regarding MU discussion (Which I think @Protagonist_1 ? Could be wrong). You can see how discussions like that may also be limited for similar reasons mentioned previously. It's good to flesh all this stuff out not only for the reasons mentioned, but as @Juggs said in the OP, it's a short term solution. What if you get into a tournament and you find out that your opponent has tech against your wakeup? MU specific stuff?

      I didn't know it existed for Atom's tele until I fought against it, so I came here, asked/answered some questions, and bip bam boop we had a MU discussion regarding Atom teleport vs Scarecrow's J3. Then both parties get to flesh out their options; so Scarecrow players figure out what options they have against teleport (Jump in 3 for those questioning) and Atom players know that for future and find stuff like that wakeup trait occasionally worked if it's mistimed, or delayed wakeup, or whatever.

      Everything I've said though is obviously whatever since I've never competed in a tournament, doubt I will due to life choices, and am just looking to see the best of what this game has to offer. I don't know of anyone who actually withholds tech from the community, but it's disappointing to hear of it in my opinion, especially when others put in such work.
      Darth Mao and Juggs like this.
    5. Cursa
      Back on topic.

      Why post this now though? Injustice 2 is reaching the end of it's "Tech finding" days outside of anything MU specific most of the time, or gimmicky (Regardless of how cool some of those Superman 100% resets are).

      Also, ignorance is bliss, but I've never noticed this before?
    6. neveradestroyer
      Sharing tech... Let me see... Universal assist tutorial for Dragon Ball Fighterz by le me...
      Ass You can see... There are 3 types of attacking assist speed. Android 18 assist is a pure defense assist so this doesn't apply to her.

      See!. I am sharing:DOGE. I quadruple posted this... One post in every thread... If this isn't sharing... I don't know what else to do.:(
      Last edited: Apr 26, 2018
    7. Braindead
      Ugh fine I'll post a Wonder Woman ambiguous jump in setup tonight.
    8. HellblazerHawkman
      It was worse a few months ago, that's why "I FOUND THIS XXXX MONTHS AGO!" became such a joke. Because whenever you'd see somebody post tech, you'd have somebody pop in and say "Yeah, I knew about this 4 months ago and just never shared it".

      Honestly, I don't see the point of hiding tech in general. I can't recall a single time I saw a match turned around entirely because some scrub pulled out a new reset against Sonic Fox. The people more inclined to do so aren't the ones making Top 8s, ya know?
      Darth Mao, Cursa and VSC_Supreme like this.
    9. God Confirm
      God Confirm
      That was even worse back in MKX

      "known" is a meme Now

      Sent from my HTC_D10u using Tapatalk
    10. Braindead
      Remember when people knew about secret brutalities and refused to share how they were doing it? That was peak patheticness.
    11. Darth-Nero
      I've been talking about this ever since i registered here, selfishness and hording tech is the prime reason why NRS games die earlier than they should. Whenever am obliterating someone online, so long as i see their determination and potential, i add them and teach them everything about the matchup. how to work around my tech, the gabs, the block strings, the gimmicks..,etc. There is actually zero fun in bodying someone solely on their lack of knowledge.

      Not only players with less than 30% win rate lose interest, Good players lose interest too when the majority of the community offers very little challenge.
      Juggs, Storm Zone, ChatterBox and 4 others like this.
    12. just_2swift
      Yeah lol shut up Meg
    13. God Confirm
    14. Juggs
      I just wish people could see the benefit, long term, of sharing tech. The select few who are making money will think I’m crazy. But my entire point is that you will make even MORE money if there’s more competition for a longer period of time, that’s all.
      Espio, THTB and Cursa like this.
    15. Cursa
      *And also be actually better at the game
    16. ienjoywinning
      Tfw you share tech but then its suddenly a pro players tech
      Osagri, ChatterBox, Juggs and 2 others like this.
    17. HellblazerHawkman
      This might be more relevant for MK11, but this is part of why there's a dedicated TYM news crew now. I y'all find stuff, tag me or any of the other guys and we'll promote that shit to get your name out there. I know I always feel bad when I post something Raptor came up with and somebody tells me that they found that same thing a week before he did
      Cursa likes this.
    18. Darth-Nero
      Man i remember back in mk9 when i was trying to learn the cyrax reset 90% combo, There was only one youtube video tutorial about it and it was in russian. Took me 3 hours to master the combo by figuring out the timing through the animation since i couldn't understand a word he was saying.
      Marinjuana likes this.
    19. Marinjuana
      Only I can know about this super secret brutality where Tremor turns his back and does exactly the same thing he does in another brutality. It's too cool to share with you plebs
      Darth-Nero, iAteUrLife and Braindead like this.
    20. Juggs
      Well, I’ve had most of this typed up for nearly a year now. I didn’t think it would be received well coming from me, so I held onto it and was actually going to ask a top player to post it, lol. But it just felt super weird to even ask so I just kinda left it and forgot about it. I was going through my notes and saw it. I was gonna wait until the next game dropped, but I think it would have been super buried with all the new threads that will inevitably be made once MK11 drops.
      God Confirm, Cursa and Darth-Nero like this.
    21. Cursa
      Hey yo I found this sick Atom combo in trait where if you can spam 2 fast enough it basically corner carries the opponent and does about 30% meterless. Where's my front page news? Grr basically stole all his Atom tech from me after all.
    22. AyAyRawnYea
      Pro streamers can have nice tech
    23. Jynks
      The biggest problem with the FGC and TYM itself is that it is a highly competitive environment. This is a kind of an oxymoron as a competitive scene HAS to be competitive, it is its defining characteristic. Yet highly competitive environments are also, commonly, highly aggressive and combative. This leads the FGC to also be one of the more toxic gaming communities around, something common in many eSports. This toxicity is exasperated by the internet "charming" tendency to encourage bad behaviour barbecue of the lack of accountability when speaking to each other.

      What I am getting at here is that there is a problem in how we as a community interact, Kappa, 8WayRun Shoruken and TYM are all famously hostile forums for its community members. Yet the reasons for it being toxic are, imo, directly tired into the base concept of competitive gaming.. it is competitive... and that attracts competitive personality types.

      In a game there is about personal achievement and glorification it is not hard to see why things like hidden tech, bulling shit posting and stuff occurs... yet I do not think there is any real way to improve this.
      Kotal_Wannabe, The_Tile and Cursa like this.
    24. The_Tile
      This is actually a pretty good point that often gets overlooked in these kind of discussions.

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