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Improving MK11 with 20+ years of FG experience

Rearawt

Noob
Which is why I provided detailed explanation to why and how to change the represented systems which may benefit everybody (and if you’d provide some info Subzero having 40%+ damage CB other then Slide one, then your point would be more substantial).
Again, if you watch K&M's combo video you can see Sub doing 36% with a different KB.

You don't even know how the systems affect people currently. We literally don't even know all of Sub-Zero's KBs, but you want to "improve" something that you just don't have enough information about. It's madness.

And I played my share of fighting games and I can see imbalances miles away
Anyone who says this is bullshitting. Always. Especially about a game they've never even played, and have incomplete information about.

And FB is broken objectively
Wrong and stupid tbh. See above.
 

cgerrr

Tourney id: Gfc_alekS
Again, if you watch K&M's combo video you can see Sub doing 36% with a different KB.

You don't even know how the systems affect people currently. We literally don't even know all of Sub-Zero's KBs, but you want to "improve" something that you just don't have enough information about. It's madness.


Anyone who says this is bullshitting. Always. Especially about a game they've never even played, and have incomplete information about.


Wrong and stupid tbh. See above.
Actually you have a point about trying to improve something about we know nothing as absurd. But we know enough to make conclusions which I described above in many posts.

As for FB – it will be changed if NRS do want this game to be competitive, thus as of now I’m excluded FB from the equation completely. But again it’s not the point of this thread.

And 40+36 = 76% that’s a whole additional CB to end the round. Point still stands.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
According to the videos 1 char has 2-3 useful Cbs + d2 one. Damage is ranging from 20% to 40%. So my point still stands.
These are early builds though, so we can't say for sure that a character will only have 2-3 useful Krushing Blows. Even if it's only 3, if you're averaging 30% a combo that's basically an entire round from one mechanic. Seems pretty strong to me. The only way your scenerio plays out is if both players decide to play sub-optimally, which seems like more of a problem for them than with the system.

I think a lot of your concerns will be taken care of simply by players getting a chance to actually play the game and start to optimize things. Players are still going to find creative ways to either incorporate different KB into their combos, or different ways to juggle/combo the opponent.
 

Rearawt

Noob
But we know enough to make conclusions
We literally don't though, that's my point. Conclusions based on mistaken or incomplete observations and information are less than useless.

And 40+36 = 76% that’s a whole additional CB to end the round. Point still stands.
This is theoryfighting at its basest and most rank. You're not going to land a single poke in the match? Not a string? No meterless combos? No 30% 1 bar combos? Nothing?
This is stupid.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
And 40+36 = 76% that’s a whole additional CB to end the round. Point still stands.
Do they have to end the round with a CB? They'd only need about 24%. They could easily get that with a few stray hits in neutral and 1 "regular" combo. You keep acting like CB's are the only way to bag damage in this game, from what I've seen that doesn't seem to be the case.
 

cgerrr

Tourney id: Gfc_alekS
Just try to see it the way I described with the current state of MK11 info we have as it’s: what do we lose using systems described in OP – nothing. What we gain – additional possibilities.

What can we lose if everything stays as it is – good question isn’t it? And previously I described my assumptions about it. That’s this thread all about: making MK11 better.

I saw what I came here for: for many it’s easier to disregard suggestion of improvement completely than to understand it. Really hoped more people would have similar beliefs and a bit more open minded.

If anyone want’s to ponder on how presented systems can be improved instead of simply arguing for the sake of it – I’m open to collaboration.

Have a nice evening everyone.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Suggestion on improving Crushing blows:
- CB can be done at any time players want with holding button down if there is resources for it
- additional resource: CB counter - replenish itself with time, has capped maximum (for example 3 uses or character dependent) and allows to use CB
- tweaks for damage and properties of different CBs needed obviously
Wouldn't this lead to players simply fishing for the same KB all the time, and just waiting for their "KB counter" to replenish? For example, if I'm a Sub player and my slide is a 40% KB, why wouldn't I just go for slide all match? How does this add more creative combos? Seems like it would just incentivize players to do the same combo over and over, even more so than how the current KB system projects.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
I saw what I came here for: for many it’s easier to disregard suggestion of improvement completely than to understand it. Really hoped more people would have similar beliefs and a bit more open minded.

If anyone want’s to ponder on how presented systems can be improved instead of simply arguing for the sake of it – I’m open to collaboration.
Were you hoping for an actual discussion, or were you simply hoping that everyone would automatically agree with you on everything? Just because several people have disagreed with your viewpoint doesn't make them close minded, or that they're just arguing to argue. It's possible your points just aren't as well thought out as you originally thought.
 

Marlow

Premium Supporter
Premium Supporter
Also, one simple fix to your KB concern, if it really does end up happening: On the third round players get all their used KB back. Or if they use all of their KB, they get them back. I'm not sure that would actually be neccessary, but that would easily solve the problem of a potential 3rd round for each character with nobody having any KB left.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
There are these people who have been developing computer games for 30 years with dedicated tournament players testing the game for them.

There is literally nothing you can teach them in this thread.

Let go.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
Holy shit this the dumbest shit I've seen today. Alright let's take this down. 1 yes cb do a lot of damage but you're acting like 30 to 40 percent isn't normal bnb range for the last few games. If anything the cb makes damage more tame. 2 all your meter changes are terrible and counter productive. The problem with the old system is that meter building wasn't consistent because someone like kung lao could do one string and build half a bar. Your system adds that problem back in. 3 YOU HAVEN'T PLAYED THE GAME
 

Cashual

PSN: Cansuela
Actually you have a point about trying to improve something about we know nothing as absurd. But we know enough to make conclusions which I described above in many posts.

As for FB – it will be changed if NRS do want this game to be competitive, thus as of now I’m excluded FB from the equation completely. But again it’s not the point of this thread.

And 40+36 = 76% that’s a whole additional CB to end the round. Point still stands.
Fundamentally your argument boils down to: combos aren’t flashy and damaging enough and I want meter build to mostly return to how it’s been.

I don’t get how having to open up your opponent 2x more per round (maybe...) is a bad thing. One of the biggest complaints with MKX was that many characters could land a couple stray hits/throws and 2 bnbs and get the kill. People felt cheated when they would get opened up for real 2x a round, often as the result of a 50/50, hard to blockable, armored launcher, etc. and die.

It’s pretty clear the devs want the game to be a bit slower, more methodical, neutral based, and more about pvp interaction and strategy as opposed to who can apply their characters dirt faster.

I’m not ultimately saying the game won’t need changes or that the meta won’t have flaws, but you’re suggesting sweeping changes for a game you’ve not played, or at least not played for more than an hour, by watching gameplay of other people who mostly haven’t played more than a couple hours.

And lastly, your whole claim to credibility is absurd. I’m 35. Have been playing fighting games since virtua fighter, mk, and SF2 were in arcades. I’ve been dabbling competitively since IGAU, and have watched basically every tournament or hype set since. There’s a ton of people like us, and in no way does that make you, or I, qualified to make these definitive claims about the game’s design 3 months before release without ever having even played it. Not to mention that Boon and developers have been saying since the reveal build that mechanics, damage scaling, and even move frame data is all still in flux.
 

Swindle

Philanthropist & Asshole
Just try to see it the way I described with the current state of MK11 info we have as it’s: what do we lose using systems described in OP – nothing. What we gain – additional possibilities.

What can we lose if everything stays as it is – good question isn’t it? And previously I described my assumptions about it. That’s this thread all about: making MK11 better.

I saw what I came here for: for many it’s easier to disregard suggestion of improvement completely than to understand it. Really hoped more people would have similar beliefs and a bit more open minded.

If anyone want’s to ponder on how presented systems can be improved instead of simply arguing for the sake of it – I’m open to collaboration.

Have a nice evening everyone.
Most of us are being open-minded to this NEW system. It is you who is being close minded here, not wanting to actually have the community play test this all out when the game is officially locked.
If you have reservations about this new system, then that is valid. But throwing out phrases like “objectively broken” at this point makes you sound ridiculous.
A little self awareness, now and then, is treasured by the wisest men*.

* and women. And LGBTQ’s...And ROUS’s. And PigoftheHut.
 

mastermalone

Use only logic, please
Wouldn't this lead to players simply fishing for the same KB all the time, and just waiting for their "KB counter" to replenish? For example, if I'm a Sub player and my slide is a 40% KB, why wouldn't I just go for slide all match? How does this add more creative combos? Seems like it would just incentivize players to do the same combo over and over, even more so than how the current KB system projects.
I've been waiting for someone to say this. You are absolutely correct.
 

mastermalone

Use only logic, please
I have to admit, I was not a fan of the current system at first.. But after careful consideration, I find it to be fine. My reasons:

Reduce the meter building tactics that discourage players from choosing characters that lack the ability to quickly gain meter.

Give said lacking characters a fighting chance to get out of pressure with an amplified move.

Break out of combos when facing a character with damaging juggles, given the defensive meter is available.

I like that the KBs can only be used once per game. That prevents constant baiting for KBs

I like that the FBs can only be done once per game. I also like that it's not tied to the main meter. This not only makes this move useful, it adds a layer of strategy to the match that has not been there before. I've never chosen to use a super over a more advantageous EX move in any fighting game. This will be the first.

What people should be complaining about is the dash speed. That needs to be addressed like yesterday. They need to look at other fighting games to get a sense for what is appropriate in terms of dashing.

Even this dude on ign.com gets it. I don't usually trust their opinions on anything but this preview of the system changes says mostly what I've come to realize.

https://m.ign.com/videos/2019/02/08/6-exciting-mortal-kombat-11-game-changers
 
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Wouldn't this lead to players simply fishing for the same KB all the time, and just waiting for their "KB counter" to replenish? For example, if I'm a Sub player and my slide is a 40% KB, why wouldn't I just go for slide all match? How does this add more creative combos? Seems like it would just incentivize players to do the same combo over and over, even more so than how the current KB system projects.
This.

Losing your KB means you need to find ways to use your other ones if you want their increased damage. And it means your opponent needs to know what you've used and what you might be setting up for. Otherwise if Sub's slide KB is the optimal and it's reusable then they know to watch out for that.

And it means there's more variance in what's shown instead of seeing the same KB every single round. Which i'm sure is something that NRS was going for to make the game a little more interesting for the spectator.

The way they're doing it adds another level of strategy. It's not just about setting up for the optimal combo using your best KB. It's about doing that with every KB you have, and making your opponent think about how he plays to counter that.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I see current implementation of Crushing Blow as a bit gimmicky: it’s unclear, has arbitrary conditions and it’s a one time use; which combined limits it’s usefulness, dumpers creativity, feels bad/wasteful to use and foremost is boring to watch (saw Kabal vs Sub lately – all Sub was doing is fishing for slides doing it over and over again just to do 40%+ one button combo once, while Kabal didn’t do anything with his Crushing blows almost at all: obviously it wasn’t entertaining to watch).
I think that analyzing gameplay at this point for drastic changes is actually borderline counterproductive. The meta hasn't taken shape yet, and it's impossible to see how things will shake out in such early random gameplay.

If you watch the early pre-release Injustice: Gods Among Us gameplay, what the meta became less than a year later would be almost unrecognizable in comparison. No one knows the optimal way to play MK11 -- and it will change before launch -- and it's going to take some time to figure it out.
 
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- CB can be done at any time players want with holding button down if there is resources for it
Meter regenerates -- it's not a proactive or reward-based system (...even if more so, when compared to the 'meter for method acting as a punching bag' systems of the past and in most fighting games). As such, an input as facile as holding a button would likely result in CB spam fiestas that, among other shortcomings, would slow gameplay down to an 'X-ray' slideshow.

A system like that would only work with proper, dedicated command inputs, and appropriate execution barrier/s -- an anathema to the modern-day, causal cosseting focus of the pastime.

- additional resource: CB counter - replenish itself with time, has capped maximum (for example 3 uses or character dependent) and allows to use CB
The system is already capped: "four or five per char.", of which each can only be used once per match.

- tweaks for damage and properties of different CBs needed obviously
I agree... Albeit, probably contrary to what you're actually intimating -- i.e., the CB's should do MINIMUM of 25% HP damage, un-scaled. A pipe dream -- I know... Given "big damage" = ~30% HP in 2019 v_v

We’re all love damaging creative combos and setups. Mentioned improvements will allow those, while making use of CBs much more creative and interesting to watch, while feeling good doing so.
The cancer of "bala*ce" will supersede any arguments relating to 'fun factor'... 'Cause games are no longer just games -- they're primarily consumer fleecing tools.

Simply put it’s bland, inconsistent and again – limited.
Yes and no: it's "bland" because (as far as we know) meters regenerate at universal rates (silly, given some characters should clearly have more / less 'spirit' / 'stamina' than others); and it is consistent, for the inherent reason hereinbefore stated.

It doesn’t create much tension between your actions and how/when you spend it mainly because you can’t earn meter/stamina now (it simply refills with time).
Correction: Meter was not (or barely) earned before what M11K has brought to the table -- it was divvied for begin punched in the mush and / or having one's attacks blocked.
NB: "Meter" is meant represent SPIRIT -- vigour for the fight -- but, as a result of the invasive malignancy of "bala*ce", such systems have been rendered skill-plateauing mechanics--primarily--if not explicitly, which are designed to level the playing field / bridge the skill gap (i.e., unless one is Rocky Balboa, they do not get stronger, nor gain access to more potent abilities, the more they LOSE a fight), and not about rewarding skilled, or even proactive play. Sure -- meter gained for one's attacks being blocked is kind of proactive--on the attacker's part. However, in the context of how difficult / luck-centric blocking was in the 50-50 orgiasticity of the MKX environment, and how rush-down-centric the game was -- with the incongruity of combatants exhausting themselves in order to gain access to their most potent weapons, notwithstanding -- meter given to an opponent for [you] blocking their attacks, is almost as dumb as meter for 'blocking' with one's face...!

It limits creativity and spectacle
That's a hackneyed homily, rev. Jim Jones. Anyone whelped before Y2K knows that, nowadays, most of the restrictions placed on specials, EX's, supers, desperation moves etc., are in place to bridge the schism between those who like to hone their skills and demonstrate them as such, and those who only want to be titillated and fooled into thinking they can play at a given level of proficiency in a given game... 'Cause we don't wanna hurt a pussy-willow -Generations' feelings, of course (see: "I have to do WHAT to throw a projectile!?" .meme/sirlin_the_vermin_sermon). As a tangential: Why do people think the 'down-thumb' ("dislike") option was removed from most Internet comments sections? (Clue: It wasn't for the lack of use of said functionality...)

Suggestion on improving Meter System:
- it doesn’t refill with time
- defensive meters refills only when you receive damage
- offensive meter refills when you do specials or do block damage with normals or command normals; both ways mutually exclusive (specials don’t gain additional meter by hitting block)
- (self-explanatory, but needs to be mentioned: refill rate is consistent and isn’t dependent on how you used meter)
- As alluded to, the only other option (that they would go with) would be the old one -- meter gained for role-playing as a wooden board -- a worse one.
- Nope. If anything, it is the LACK OF ROBUST DEFENSIVE OPTIONS that render fighting games so homogeneous, repetitive and exploit-happy.
- Yeah... nah... PROPER METER should function as SPIRIT (exemplar: Art of Fighting series) -- a logical concept wholly incompatible with modern fighting game development philosophies and their marketing. Verdict: It ain't gonna happen.
- On one hand, you want diversity; on the other, homogeneity. You cannot have your enjoyable game and casual cosseting too... And Shao Kahn does not have the same statistical parameters as Meat(!).

tl;dr -- All suggestions are welcome. Few, if any, will come to fruition.