Improving MK11 with 20+ years of FG experience

[cgerrr]

Greetings, fellow enthusiasts.

As a long timer I’m obliged to give some critique and suggestions concerning core MK11 mechanics: Crushing Blow and Meter/Stamina system.

I see current implementation of Crushing Blow as a bit gimmicky: it’s unclear, has arbitrary conditions and it’s a one time use; which combined limits it’s usefulness, dumpers creativity, feels bad/wasteful to use and foremost is boring to watch (saw Kabal vs Sub lately – all Sub was doing is fishing for slides doing it over and over again just to do 40%+ one button combo once, while Kabal didn’t do anything with his Crushing blows almost at all: obviously it wasn’t entertaining to watch).

Suggestion on improving Crushing blows:
- CB can be done at any time players want with holding button down if there is resources for it
- additional resource: CB counter - replenish itself with time, has capped maximum (for example 3 uses or character dependent) and allows to use CB
- tweaks for damage and properties of different CBs needed obviously

We’re all love damaging creative combos and setups. Mentioned improvements will allow those, while making use of CBs much more creative and interesting to watch, while feeling good doing so.

____________________________

As for Meter System.

Simply put it’s bland, inconsistent and again – limited. It doesn’t create much tension between your actions and how/when you spend it mainly because you can’t earn meter/stamina now (it simply refills with time). It limits creativity and spectacle because of this as well: you can’t rush an opponent with half a meter hoping to boost it with your string on block then to use said meter in that same string etc.

Suggestion on improving Meter System:
- it doesn’t refill with time
- defensive meters refills only when you receive damage
- offensive meter refills when you do specials or do block damage with normals or command normals; both ways mutually exclusive (specials don’t gain additional meter by hitting block)
- (self-explanatory, but needs to be mentioned: refill rate is consistent and isn’t dependent on how you used meter)

Ability to make something out of your actions, other than position, frame/life advantage are gratifying for players and provides more robust viewer experience, especially when it’s clear cut and easily understandable as represented improvements.


Combined with mentioned improvements for Crushing blows it may add to the viewership and better gameplay overall, which any game can’t have enough.


Thank you for reading and what do you all think about it?

 

[Kratilim]

Feedback is fine and all. But maybe wait until you've experienced the game as a whole? You can only guess how it feels right now right? Unless you actually have played the game. As boon stated in the kombat kast, be open to change and wait and see... As I see it, most of the new systems are designed around learning a character. Learning what to do to have the CB and using it tactically. Thats just my opinion. But I do understand your points, the only concern I have with the way they present their new system is that the game might be a bit too defensive. But again, without having played it, there is no way to tell if thats accurate or not.

 

[Vslayer]

I see current implementation of Crushing Blow as a bit gimmicky: it’s unclear, has arbitrary conditions and it’s a one time use; which combined limits it’s usefulness, dumpers creativity, feels bad/wasteful to use and foremost is boring to watch (saw Kabal vs Sub lately – all Sub was doing is fishing for slides doing it over and over again just to do 40%+ one button combo once, while Kabal didn’t do anything with his Crushing blows almost at all: obviously it wasn’t entertaining to watch).

Actually, Sub-Zero doing two enhanced slides is way less spammy than what most people do online in MKX or IJ2. The fact that it's one use only makes you think if you want to use it to end a close match or keep it for the last round to get that win. I don't see it as a gimmick, though the damage is a bit intense and I would rather have longer juggles than KB doing THAT much damage, that's just me.

Maybe that specific match-up wasn't interesting to watch, but have you keen Ketchup and Mustard's Scorpion and Subzero matches? Now THAT was entertaining. I think the matches you're referring to are the ones in the Kombat Kast and they probably just wanted to show off more aspects of the games and characters, maybe that's why it seemed boring.

I agree with the meter, it should refill the same way it does in IJ2 and MKX. I don't see the point in giving people free resources if they're not going anything to gain them.

 

[GLoRToR]

tldr. Everyone on this board is somehow a game designer.

Can we please not?

 

[Marlow]

"it’s unclear, has arbitrary conditions and it’s a one time use; which combined limits it’s usefulness, dumpers creativity, feels bad/wasteful to use and foremost is boring to watch"

Couple quick counter points. For starters, it's only unclear because we don't have access to the characters yet. Once you start learning characters and matchups it's going to feel much less unclear.

I also think over time it will feel less arbitrary. Most of the Krushing Blows I've seen have been tied somewhat into a character's particular strategy, as a compliment to something they already have. They might have a string that ends in Low/Overhead, with one option leading to the KB. Or they might have their D2 lead to a KB to possibly help their fireball game.

I think the one time use helps add to the strategy and depth. Only being able to use it once means making a calculated decision on when to cash in that chip. Since the KB can be tied into other strategies choosing to use it early could be an issue later on. For example, if a character has a poor anti-air but their anti-air is a KB, they'll need to decide whether to try and hold their KB as long as possible, in order to keep the threat alive and persuade their opponent not to jump, or spend it earlier to possibly cash out a round, start a comeback, or go for an early lead.

I also think it can add to the excitement, because if both players know that the other is fishing for a KB, it creates interesting mental games. It's the whole "You know that I'm going to fish for slide, but I know that you know that I'm going to fish for slide, but you know that I know that you know..." kind of thing.

Obviously a lot can change, and we won't know for sure until the game actually comes out and people have a few months to develope, but for now I'm pretty excited about KB's.

 

[Marlow]

I also like the new meter system. I think it's an interesting way to handle things. Players will still need to handle resource management, but by tying the resource to time instead of player actions it means the game will be more about winning the neutral instead of creating a resource advantage.

 

[cgerrr]

Actually, Sub-Zero doing two enhanced slides is way less spammy than what most people do online in MKX or IJ2. The fact that it's one use only makes you think if you want to use it to end a close match or keep it for the last round to get that win. I don't see it as a gimmick, though the damage is a bit intense and I would rather have longer juggles than KB doing THAT much damage, that's just me.

Maybe that specific match-up wasn't interesting to watch, but have you keen Ketchup and Mustard's Scorpion and Subzero matches? Now THAT was entertaining. I think the matches you're referring to are the ones in the Kombat Kast and they probably just wanted to show off more aspects of the games and characters, maybe that's why it seemed boring.

I agree with the meter, it should refill the same way it does in IJ2 and MKX. I don't see the point in giving people free resources if they're not going anything to gain them.

I’m glad I’m not the only one seeing flaws in meter system.

As for CBs: just imagine, if you’d be able to do 2-3 CB in a one combo which relaunch and allow for longer and creative combos precisely when you want those? Long creative and damaging combos – what’s not to like? Granted CB damage reduction is needed in that case, but it’s easily doable at any stage of the game development and beyond.

On related note I’m playing FG from age of 6 past 28 years on and off, competitively as well (I’m 34), so I have some expertise even just by analyzing videos. And I watched PNDK&M vids before posting OP.

 

[Rearawt]

As for CBs: just imagine, if you’d be able to do 2-3 CB in a one combo which relaunch and allow for longer and creative combos precisely when you want those?

You already can. There are options that allow you to only do KBs when you hold down the button. This also allows you to chain multiple of them in one combo if you meet all the requirements

On related note I’m playing FG from age of 6 past 28 years on and off, competitively as well (I’m 34), so I have some expertise even just by analyzing videos. And I watched PNDK&M vids before posting OP.

C'mon man, we've all been playing fighting games since we were 6. That's entirely different from designing

 

[Chuckyscookie]

I think auto refilling meter is the right choice if combos work like they do as of now. With few exceptions such Kabal's dash, all special moves that extend combos have to be amplified to do so. For example Scorpion's teleport and spear both require bar for a continuation. So while seeing more tension and strategys to gain meter, we'd see significantly less hype combos. That's not a good tradeoff imo. If the meter system was changed, combos would have to be altered as well.

 

[cgerrr]

I also think over time it will feel less arbitrary. Most of the Krushing Blows I've seen have been tied somewhat into a character's particular strategy, as a compliment to something they already have. They might have a string that ends in Low/Overhead, with one option leading to the KB. Or they might have their D2 lead to a KB to possibly help their fireball game.



I think the one time use helps add to the strategy and depth. Only being able to use it once means making a calculated decision on when to cash in that chip. Since the KB can be tied into other strategies choosing to use it early could be an issue later on. For example, if a character has a poor anti-air but their anti-air is a KB, they'll need to decide whether to try and hold their KB as long as possible, in order to keep the threat alive and persuade their opponent not to jump, or spend it earlier to possibly cash out a round, start a comeback, or go for an early lead.

The same thing may be viewed as limitations.



As for the 1 time use – imagine both players used all theirs CB firs 2 rounds. What will be in the 3rd: same 2-3 moves 12-20% each and probably win by time out or even worse - zoning war. I’m not considering that as fun and reading and watching remarks as “we want combos” and “MK11 is IJ3 because of zoning” makes me certain I’m not alone in this.

 

[Vslayer]

I’m glad I’m not the only one seeing flaws in meter system.

As for CBs: just imagine, if you’d be able to do 2-3 CB in a one combo which relaunch and allow for longer and creative combos precisely when you want those? Long creative and damaging combos – what’s not to like? Granted CB damage reduction is needed in that case, but it’s easily doable at any stage of the game development and beyond.

On related note I’m playing FG from age of 6 past 28 years on and off, competitively as well (I’m 34), so I have some expertise even just by analyzing videos. And I watched PNDK&M vids before posting OP.

True, that's very true. I mean, they can either change the CBs to trigger every time with the conditions they set, or implement more pop up moves or specials.

This game just seems like a very big change, especially if you're coming from mkx or ij2, but I hope we'll be able to play the beta for a while to really see if it needs changing or not. Watching videos is one thing, but actually trying it out may be very different.

 

[cgerrr]

You already can. There are options that allow you to only do KBs when you hold down the button. This also allows you to chain multiple of them in one combo if you meet all the requirements


C'mon man, we've all been playing fighting games since we were 6. That's entirely different from designing

But only one time per match: read my prev comment - what will you do for the rest of the match? Chip at your op with 15% combos?

And I have game dev experience, not on the scale of NRS obviously and I'm not considering myself know it all, just adding credibility to my words.

 

[cgerrr]

I think auto refilling meter is the right choice if combos work like they do as of now. With few exceptions such Kabal's dash, all special moves that extend combos have to be amplified to do so. For example Scorpion's teleport and spear both require bar for a continuation. So while seeing more tension and strategys to gain meter, we'd see significantly less hype combos. That's not a good tradeoff imo. If the meter system was changed, combos would have to be altered as well.

That's the whole point of this thread - to change something for better.

 

[Marlow]

As for the 1 time use – imagine both players used all theirs CB firs 2 rounds.

With the amount of damage they do, and the likely variety of KB's, I think that's pretty unlikely. Especially if the players have access to Fatal Blow at some point. Even then, that's part of the strategy of when to use your KB or not.

I also think the whole "we want combos" and "MK11 is IJ3 because of zoning" is pure overreaction. We've already seen that given more than just 45 minutes of practice time players are finding combos. K&M already posted a video highlighting combos. And we don't really know how the zoning will be, but from listenting to players who actually got a chance to play the game it doesn't sound like they're the ones concerned about the zoning and combos.

Also, one thing to consider is that by tying the Meter building to time it actually hurts zoning as a playstyle, since one of the big perks of zoning was being able to build a ton a meter.

 

[Chuckyscookie]

That's the whole point of this thread - to change something for better.

And I'm not objecting to that. I'm just saying that you can't change x without changing y.

Also, I've been thinking more about the Crushing Blows. You didn't like just going for slides all the time, but we don't know all the different kinds of requirements yet. So maybe building and improvising your combos so that you can fulfill a certain requirement and include a Crushing Blow, or comboing of Crushing Blows like Baraka does, will add an element of creativity that you lose with meter building. Obviously just a thought that would have to be tested in practice as well.

 

[cgerrr]

With the amount of damage they do, and the likely variety of KB's, I think that's pretty unlikely. Especially if the players have access to Fatal Blow at some point. Even then, that's part of the strategy of when to use your KB or not.

I also think the whole "we want combos" and "MK11 is IJ3 because of zoning" is pure overreaction. We've already seen that given more than just 45 minutes of practice time players are finding combos. K&M already posted a video highlighting combos. And we don't really know how the zoning will be, but from listenting to players who actually got a chance to play the game it doesn't sound like they're the ones concerned about the zoning and combos.

Also, one thing to consider is that by tying the Meter building to time it actually hurts zoning as a playstyle, since one of the big perks of zoning was being able to build a ton a meter.

Let’s count:

Approximately each character has 4-5 Cbs. Universal one (d2) and 3-4 unique ones. They do different damage boost and properties but for the sake of argument lets consider them 30% damage each. Out of 3-4 CB only 2 is usefull judging by the videos. So we left with one d2 + two other 30% Cbs – and that’s approximatelly 100% of HP of one character.

So we easily can get 1st round won by 1st char which uses all of his useful Cbs. And probably 2nd round won by 2nd char using all of his useful Cbs. And more often then not we'll have 3rd round without Cbs chipping each other with the same 2-3 moves< which I described earlier.

Allowing to replenish meter with time encourages to stay full screen chugging projectiles as well waiting meter to recharge. I think main reason zoning may be a problem is because when you get in all you can do is 20% combo without CB and that’s is way to insignificant when you can lose much more just getting in.

As for people who played not complaining – it’s not so clear cut: most of them media personalities so they can’t say what they want. And some who do not afraid – stated that the game is slow and zoning heavy (Destroyer for example).


Anyways if you’d reread OP you’ll find that I’m not proposing something drastically different. Everythin that's already in the game will be in it, but better and with less limitations.

 

[Eddy Wang]

See the difference @ismael4790
Between what we talked the other day in the mourning, there is a thin line between that and then there is this.

 

[Rearawt]

But only one time per match: read my prev comment - what will you do for the rest of the match? Chip at your op with 15% combos?

Sub-Zero simple string into slide KB does almost 40% dmg. Two of those and a few pokes is a full healthbar, and then you have 3-4 more KBs left and the fatal blow. Also you still have meter to extend combos that go above 15%. In K&M's combo video you can see Baraka do 40% with one bar and no KBs

I honestly don't think it will be a problem, and I don't think anyone has the experience with MK11 or any observable data from which to make these predictions. You can't "improve" something if you don't know how it works

Anyways if you’d reread OP you’ll find that I’m not proposing something drastically different.

"What if we completely overhaul the entire meter system, no biggie lol"

 

[cgerrr]

Sub-Zero simple string into slide KB does almost 40% dmg. Two of those and a few pokes is a full healthbar, and then you have 3-4 more KBs left and the fatal blow. Also you still have meter to extend combos that go above 15%. In K&M's combo video you can see Baraka do 40% with one bar and no KBs

I honestly don't think it will be a problem, and I don't think anyone has the experience with MK11 or any observable data from which to make these predictions

And you just proved my point: you can't have two Crushing Blow Slides in one match.

As for fatal blows – they’re broken at the moment (and hopefully will be changed) and not the main point of this thread.

 

[Marlow]

So we easily can get 1st round won by 1st char which uses all of his useful Cbs. And probably 2nd round won by 2nd char using all of his useful Cbs. And more often then no we have 3rd round without Cbs chipping each other with the same 2-3 moves< which I described earlier.

It seems like such an improbably situation to worry about, but whatever. I'm assuming a player has at least 4-6 useful KB's, at about 30%-40% damage per KB. Plus a Fatal Blow for about 35%. I also assume that players will find ways to non-KB combo into around 20%. Who knows where the values on any of these end up. But spent well, that's plenty of potential damage to be able to win 2 rounds. Even in the scenerio you're outlining, each player would likely still have their Fatal Blow, for about 35%. That means that even at an average of about 15% per combo, that's probably only 3-4 combos at most to win that final round. That's pretty standard.

 

[Rearawt]

And you just proved my point: you can't have two Crushing Blow Slides in one match.

What point have I proven? You have other krushing blows to use. Did you read my post?

As for fatal blows – they’re broken at the moment (and hopefully will be changed) and not the main point of this thread.

"Broken" lmao you haven't even played the game

You can't change one system without affecting all the others

I also assume that players will find ways to non-KB combo into around 20%.

An extremely conservative estimate too, considering Baraka can get 40% for one bar lmao

 

[Marlow]

Allowing to replenish meter with time encourages to stay full screen chugging projectiles as well waiting meter to recharge. I think main reason zoning may be a problem is because when you get in all you can do is 20% combo without CB and that’s is way to insignificant when you can lose much more just getting in.

Staying full screen also means likely putting yourself in the corner, putting you at a higher risk of damage should you end up getting punished. Also, while your meter is recharging so is your opponents, so when they get in they'll plenty of resources to make the punish hurt. Putting meter on a time based system means zoners no longer gain a meter advantage from zoning, which was typically one of the stronger advantages. Plus with Perfect Blocking players could greatly reduce the chip theyr'e taking from zoning.

You're also assuming 20% will be the average combo damage, that could easily be up to the 25-30% range when people get a chance to optimize.

 

[cgerrr]

What point have I proven? You have other krushing blows to use. Did you read my post?


"Broken" lmao you haven't even played the game

You can't change one system without affecting all the others


An extremely conservative estimate too, considering Baraka can get 40% for one bar lmao

Which is why I provided detailed explanation to why and how to change the represented systems which may benefit everybody (and if you’d provide some info Subzero having 40%+ damage CB other then Slide one, then your point would be more substantial).

And I played my share of fighting games and I can see imbalances miles away. And FB is broken objectively and there are many threads about it, please don’t derail this with it.

 

[cgerrr]

It seems like such an improbably situation to worry about, but whatever. I'm assuming a player has at least 4-6 useful KB's, at about 30%-40% damage per KB.

According to the videos 1 char has 2-3 useful Cbs + d2 one. Damage is ranging from 20% to 40% (avarage 30%). So my point still stands.

Staying full screen also means likely putting yourself in the corner, putting you at a higher risk of damage should you end up getting punished. Also, while your meter is recharging so is your opponents, so when they get in they'll plenty of resources to make the punish hurt. Putting meter on a time based system means zoners no longer gain a meter advantage from zoning, which was typically one of the stronger advantages. Plus with Perfect Blocking players could greatly reduce the chip theyr'e taking from zoning.

You're also assuming 20% will be the average combo damage, that could easily be up to the 25-30% range when people get a chance to optimize.

As well as you assuming perfect blocking will actually be usable – there are vids where's “pro” players can get like one perfect block out of 3 tries offline waiting to be hit with 2 slow Baraka hits. As for the corner: safe teleports.

But again as well as zoning that’s not a point of this thread. Remember? Creativity in combos and less limitations to have 3,4 or even 5 rounds of play in one match and still have all your assets all the time with you.

 

[kabelfritz]

krushing blows are super interesting as they are. the idea to have this kind of long term strategies in a match to be the most effective is something new and great. OPs ideas to change it sounds absolutely terrible to me.