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Im glad the top players are speaking up about custom variations

Tokiwartoothxdk

『T R I G G E R E D』
I, personally, dont think this would have been discussion if the actual tourney variants would have been actually good. A lot of the characters have such meh variants it hurts when looking at the other moves you could be messing around with.
 

Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
How the hell are you supposed to practice against so many characters with so many possibilities on an effective level?
The same way players ground out literally 100 variations in MKX: you put in the work to be competitive.

When you go into a competitive round, you should know what your opponents move-list is and not have to be surprised or caught off guard by something that you weren't prepared for;
While I feel this is a legitimate concern, it would be easily remedied if the chosen loadouts are visable to both players at the loading screen. I say loading screen specifically because at that point the choices are set, so no “oh I change my mind because they chose X”.

Coupled with this, how would you possibly even balance that?
As has already been stated, they’ve got plenty of tools to do so. Increase/decrease slots, shared inputs, move conflicts — and that’s before even getting into the hard changes like properties, damage, frames, etc.

The question isn’t “how”. The question is, are they willing to put forth the effort to make this truly shine?
 

FlowerFighter

Pressure
The same way players ground out literally 100 variations in MKX: you put in the work to be competitive.



While I feel this is a legitimate concern, it would be easily remedied if the chosen loadouts are visable to both players at the loading screen. I say loading screen specifically because at that point the choices are set, so no “oh I change my mind because they chose X”.



As has already been stated, they’ve got plenty of tools to do so. Increase/decrease slots, shared inputs, move conflicts — and that’s before even getting into the hard changes like properties, damage, frames, etc.

The question isn’t “how”. The question is, are they willing to put forth the effort to make this truly shine?
Not at all, I'm not sure if you've ever been an actual competitor at a high level in a FG (I don't mean this in a snarky way) But having to account for so many things is completely impracticable to remember. When I got to grand-master on SFV, I still can't account for alot of the frame data of some set-in-stone characters I play against let alone imagining them having different variable moves all with different frame data properties and combo potential.

This is the same reason that seeing what loadout they have will be incredibly of little use at best under some situations. Seeing a photo of 1 of 10 custom character moves isn't going to allow me to go into the game confident that just because I know what their loadout is, that I'm capable of defending against it. People spend hours a day practicing against characters with the same move-sets and still don't perfect the matchup, let alone one where you can have heaps upon heaps of variations of that character.

Also balance has nothing to do with slots. If a move is so powerful that you can only use one slot on it, then it's too powerful to even be in a ranked game not to mention that by changing things such as shared inputs and move conflicts you'd be adding just ANOTHER VARIABLE for the opponent to account for.
 

FlowerFighter

Pressure
If that's a problem, then other characters should be BUFFED to compensate, not nerfed or artificially gated.
But buffed based on what? One character having an OP combination? But then what, we have to worry about all characters having to have overpowered move combinations? But then what if these particular combinations completely break the matchups vs other characters? So then what, we have to rebuff those characters? So eventually we're just going to get to the point where every character has 100 percent combos and infinite zoning potential? Sounds like a pretty shitty fighting game to me.

I'm almost baffled at how people fail to understand why custom variations being included in ranked would be a catastrophe and would make this game awfully noncompetitive.
 

Shirakani

BBQ on Scorpion's head
But buffed based on what? One character having an OP combination? But then what, we have to worry about all characters having to have overpowered move combinations? But then what if these particular combinations completely break the matchups vs other characters? So then what, we have to rebuff those characters? So eventually we're just going to get to the point where every character has 100 percent combos and infinite zoning potential? Sounds like a pretty shitty fighting game to me.

I'm almost baffled at how people fail to understand why custom variations being included in ranked would be a catastrophe and would make this game awfully noncompetitive.
Then maybe (just maybe) consider that the entire CONCEPT of variation is A HORRIBLE IDEA?!

I mean, don't you think that JUST FRIGGING MAYBE there is a god damn great reason why NO OTHER FIGHTING GAME ON THE MARKET uses a variation system that gates moves and makes characters less than complete? Why the general FGC appreciates FULLY FLESHED OUT characters from the get go?

If custom variations are going to be a problem, then maybe that IS the problem! I still think to date that the variation system in MKX was the worst fucking thing they could have done. MANY fighting games abandoned this approach years ago simply because it is a nightmare to ever balance. Why NRS thought it was a good idea baffles me, and why they doubled down even harder in this game honestly has me thinking Boon isn't right in the head.

Custom variations are great for CASUAL content, but if you want your game to be played professionally then there's a god damn great reason why it isn't done.
 

FlowerFighter

Pressure
Then maybe (just maybe) consider that the entire CONCEPT of variation is A HORRIBLE IDEA?!

I mean, don't you think that JUST FRIGGING MAYBE there is a god damn great reason why NO OTHER FIGHTING GAME ON THE MARKET uses a variation system that gates moves and makes characters less than complete? Why the general FGC appreciates FULLY FLESHED OUT characters from the get go?

If custom variations are going to be a problem, then maybe that IS the problem! I still think to date that the variation system in MKX was the worst fucking thing they could have done. MANY fighting games abandoned this approach years ago simply because it is a nightmare to ever balance. Why NRS thought it was a good idea baffles me, and why they doubled down even harder in this game honestly has me thinking Boon isn't right in the head.

Custom variations are great for CASUAL content, but if you want your game to be played professionally then there's a god damn great reason why it isn't done.
I mean, this has been my entire argument the whole time. I don't really give a shit if they're used non competitively though.
 

Shirakani

BBQ on Scorpion's head
I mean, this has been my entire argument the whole time. I don't really give a shit if they're used non competitively though.
Its almost like NRS are trying too hard to chase two crowds and they're not going to get either one at the end of it. And people wonder why NRS games never have a long lifespan despite starting out strong.
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
Dark Priest and Ridicule are not only unrealistic in a match, but they also gate krushing blows. Fix me :(
 
Then maybe (just maybe) consider that the entire CONCEPT of variation is A HORRIBLE IDEA?!

I mean, don't you think that JUST FRIGGING MAYBE there is a god damn great reason why NO OTHER FIGHTING GAME ON THE MARKET uses a variation system that gates moves and makes characters less than complete? Why the general FGC appreciates FULLY FLESHED OUT characters from the get go?

If custom variations are going to be a problem, then maybe that IS the problem! I still think to date that the variation system in MKX was the worst fucking thing they could have done. MANY fighting games abandoned this approach years ago simply because it is a nightmare to ever balance. Why NRS thought it was a good idea baffles me, and why they doubled down even harder in this game honestly has me thinking Boon isn't right in the head.

Custom variations are great for CASUAL content, but if you want your game to be played professionally then there's a god damn great reason why it isn't done.
Make no mistake (and don't let any delusional e-sports fans tell you otherwise): Mortal Kombat is largely intended for the casual market, because that's where the vast vast majority of sales go.
 
Funny how everyone is acting like this is a no brainer when the kommunity was kompletely against it in injustice 2. I’m all for it being changed, but I don’t blame NRS for starting out with this.
 

Wigy

There it is...
As I said in another thread, NRS were smoking blue whale sized joints when they made some of the variations. Cages second variation spends 2 slots replacing base moves with worse ones and gains one decent special, the first variation
gains 3 new moves, 2 of which are good.

I know it's early but NRS just really did not think the variations through at all. I think custom variations would be a disaster but they need to do a huge rework on about 50% (if not more) of the custom moves in this game and then release 2 tournament variations that actually work. With help from pros or something cause they obviously haven't got a clue if they released the game in this state
 

The Gabriel

Mean Man
I completely disagree that custom variations should be in competitive play. How the hell are you supposed to practice against so many characters with so many possibilities on an effective level?
The same way you currently do. The number of variation special moves you will need to be familiar with will remain largely the same. Every variation move is not tournament-worthy. The cream will rise to the top, and the top tiers will largely become known and predictable.

When you go into a competitive round, you should know what your opponents move-list is and not have to be surprised or caught off guard by something that you weren't prepared for;
This sounds like some SFV-era scrubquotes shit. There are times, even in tournaments, where you will be surprised, caught off guard, or unprepared for something. That is the beauty of fighting games. Go look up Kusoru UMVC3 Final Round footage.

some characters have a ton of custom variable moves they could put in. It creates another element that detracts from competitive play and leaves stuff to the wind.
Again, scrub talk. More moves to choose from enhances competitive play and leaves nothing on the table.

Better players could lose to worse players simply because they weren't prepared for some dumb variation or random variable thrown in.
This is real smash bros-level scrubquotes. Better players will maximize the variations most effectively and find the real broken cheap shit, whereas currently their skill and creativity is held in check and balanced down to worse players' level.

Coupled with this, how would you possibly even balance that?
Custom variations literally do the balancing! The game is UNBALANCED NOW ! More options = more balance.
 

Shirakani

BBQ on Scorpion's head
I hope at some point for the game's sake they either re-think the entire variation system and take moves out of it, or they at least revisit how in the holy hell they're choosing to 'balance' it. I still legitimately believe out of all the fighting game devs anywhere, NRS are the absolute WORST of the lot when it comes to balancing.
 

Shirakani

BBQ on Scorpion's head
Custom variations literally do the balancing! The game is UNBALANCED NOW ! More options = more balance.
QF-MF-T

Its like I said in another thread... imagine if say, Scorpion were allowed Misery Blade + Demon Dash, and Sub Zero were allowed Rising Ice + Ground Ice and two pro players of those characters had a match. It would be INSANE to watch.

But no, we're getting two GIMPED ASS versions of the same characters in a 'pro' setting, that leaves absolutely EVERYTHING open to argument as to who really is a better player at the end because there is always the 'Oh, if I were allowed <move> I would not have lost!' etc.

The logic behind not allowing a character's BEST abilities in competitive play is beyond moronic.
 

FlowerFighter

Pressure
The same way you currently do. The number of variation special moves you will need to be familiar with will remain largely the same. Every variation move is not tournament-worthy. The cream will rise to the top, and the top tiers will largely become known and predictable.


This sounds like some SFV-era scrubquotes shit. There are times, even in tournaments, where you will be surprised, caught off guard, or unprepared for something. That is the beauty of fighting games. Go look up Kusoru UMVC3 Final Round footage.

Again, scrub talk. More moves to choose from enhances competitive play and leaves nothing on the table.


This is real smash bros-level scrubquotes. Better players will maximize the variations most effectively and find the real broken cheap shit, whereas currently their skill and creativity is held in check and balanced down to worse players' level.

Custom variations literally do the balancing! The game is UNBALANCED NOW ! More options = more balance.
Are you really going to come at me with such backwards thinking? How does more variables equate balance, it literally makes NRS have to go look deeply at every single custom variable move and figure out how it works in conjunction with everything else. Also, I was never saying 'being caught off guard' is something that won't happen in a game obviously, my point is you should have the option to prepare in a reasonable manner for various options.

Also I'm not sure if you're aware, but finding cheap variations or move-sets does not equate to being good at a fighting game? I don't really get where you're going with this one.

And last but not least, scrub talk? Pick any game you want bro, including MK11 and I guarantee you I'll rip you a new asshole in all of them. Get out of here with that shit lmao. Also if you're going to bring up street fighter, atleast bring up 3S or SF4, I'm not going to sit here and defend SFV. But at the very least when I play SFV, I can rely on my own reactions opposed to predialed movements and an entire neutral revolved around predialed strings.
 
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DarkSado

Noob
The same way you currently do. The number of variation special moves you will need to be familiar with will remain largely the same. Every variation move is not tournament-worthy. The cream will rise to the top, and the top tiers will largely become known and predictable.


This sounds like some SFV-era scrubquotes shit. There are times, even in tournaments, where you will be surprised, caught off guard, or unprepared for something. That is the beauty of fighting games. Go look up Kusoru UMVC3 Final Round footage.

Again, scrub talk. More moves to choose from enhances competitive play and leaves nothing on the table.


This is real smash bros-level scrubquotes. Better players will maximize the variations most effectively and find the real broken cheap shit, whereas currently their skill and creativity is held in check and balanced down to worse players' level.

Custom variations literally do the balancing! The game is UNBALANCED NOW ! More options = more balance.
More options= More broken unbalance things we have to wait for them to fix SMH
 

The Gabriel

Mean Man
Are you really going to come at me with such backwards thinking? How does more variables equate balance, it literally makes NRS have to go look deeply at every single custom variable move and figure out how it works in conjunction with everything else. Also, I was never saying 'being caught off guard' is something that won't happen in a game obviously, my point is you should have the option to prepare in a reasonable manner for various options.
This kind of talk makes me know I'm dealing with a young person who was never around during the arcade scene or the heyday of competitive fighting games. Your whole attitude of waiting for the game developer to figure out their game and change things is so sad and wrongheaded and goes against all of fighting game history. The players figure out the game. The players break the game. The players shape the gameplay and take it to places the developer may not have intended. THAT is fighting games.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Its just mindblowing how custom variations is not allowed in competitive. Who does this make a game and then dont allow 70% of all abilities to be used unless your not playing serious.
imagine a new fifa game but ur only allowed to play certain teams for balance sake lol
You do know like 90% of the people playing are "not playing serious" right
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Honestly I don’t care as much as I used to about it. It just would be more fun if kustoms were allowed in ranked and tournaments. But the tournament variations are fine for the most part.
 
Honestly I don’t care as much as I used to about it. It just would be more fun if kustoms were allowed in ranked and tournaments. But the tournament variations are fine for the most part.
Are they? It seems to me that lots of characters have one decent or good loadout and one crappy loadout while some have two subpar loadouts and maybe a couple have two decent ones. There are 25 characters in the roster - do you think that someone who wants to use a competitively viable character would have 25 options to choose from, let alone 50?

From the way I've seen it, the tournament variations are anything but fine.
 

Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
Not at all, I'm not sure if you've ever been an actual competitor at a high level in a FG (I don't mean this in a snarky way) But having to account for so many things is completely impracticable to remember. When I got to grand-master on SFV, I still can't account for alot of the frame data of some set-in-stone characters I play against let alone imagining them having different variable moves all with different frame data properties and combo potential.

This is the same reason that seeing what loadout they have will be incredibly of little use at best under some situations. Seeing a photo of 1 of 10 custom character moves isn't going to allow me to go into the game confident that just because I know what their loadout is, that I'm capable of defending against it. People spend hours a day practicing against characters with the same move-sets and still don't perfect the matchup, let alone one where you can have heaps upon heaps of variations of that character.

Also balance has nothing to do with slots. If a move is so powerful that you can only use one slot on it, then it's too powerful to even be in a ranked game not to mention that by changing things such as shared inputs and move conflicts you'd be adding just ANOTHER VARIABLE for the opponent to account for.
I come from a Tekken background as far as high level play goes (I've competed and did fairly well at a local/state level). I know full well of how daunting it can be to memorize frames and properties for 60-80 moves per character. That said, it's not at all impossible.

I disagree. If you know and understand a character's base kit then you will be able to deduce what chosen moves will be problematic and how. For instance, if your Kabal opponent has Low Hook, then you know you need to be mindful of the F4 mixup. If they have Extended Hook, then you know you'll have to deal with restands. And so on. It's really no different than MKX's variations in that respect. Only difference is you're looking at each move in isolation opposed to groups.

First of all, there are already multiple instances of 2 slot moves being tournament viable. Are you saying they shouldn't be in ranked? Second, if a patch came along that turned a 1 slot move into a 2 slot move, it absolutely would be a balance change because it then limits what it can be paired with. The aforementioned Low Hook and Extended Hook paired with Air Hook is really strong. If it were deemed too strong, all they would have to do is make any of those three a 2 slot move to "break" that loadout without changing the moves themselves. This is but one way they could handle balance. Lastly, I think you're overthinking things. Move conflicts and shared inputs means you have LESS to consider, not more. If Kitana has Edenian Razors, you no longer have to deal with Lift for example. That's wholly different than a selectable move that is simply an addition to the base kit.
 

thesacrifist

Too old for this
I'm sure they could make custom variations work! The game does seem tailored to it too. Just look at for example the gear choices the characters have, like Cassie with her drone, and Sonya with her.. well, drone. None of the variations they have feature that particular gear piece in a prominent fashion, which is evident of slapped together design where the guys doing "The eSports" aren't being directed by the guys doing the vision for the character, and compromises have to be made. I've said it lots of times before as well, the game is beautiful, plays great and is generally awesome, but it's plagued by unneccessary things like this, the Towers of Time being poorly balanced/designed, the lack of communication about the Krypt, online not counting towards Towers of Time goals etc. etc.

Seems like a lead designer who was supposed to have oversight over everything was sleeping a bit. Ed Boon?