I'm Dropping Noob. (Final match up chart)

[Grolarbears]

Yeah that's what I'm asking.

Vs Cage once he gets in I get fucked against a good Cage. I got it 4-6

Vs Kitana she should just rush him down. Most Kitana's love the runaway throw 1000 fans strategy but it doesn't work well vs Noob. I got that MU 4-6 a well.

Even though I promised myself I wouldn't talk about specifics about mus in this thread, I will say the strengths Noob has in those mus.

JC: Noob should never try to blindly zone at jump distance or a little before it, because JC can punish blocked shadows with shadow kick. Noob should always be reactionary with his shadows after he's made Johnny respect full screen zoning, so then when he's anticipating a shadow, you should AA with shadow charges to keep him outside of jump distance. If he is going to dash block in you just have to be patient. Don't throw any shadows. You have to outfootsie JC with B1 and up knee, while trying to whiff punish him inside distance with shadow charges (on reaction to his normals). Also, throwing out D4s to check Johnny as he tries to get in is smart, and if he is respecting shadows a lot, you can dash up and throw (it sounds stupid, but it works because Noob has such a good throw). Any time he jumps in you need to get a full AA punish and generally end it with EX Up knee to push him back full screen. Once Johnny gets in, you have to not rush getting out. It may sound whack, and I usually don't suggest cancelling pokes into specials, but Johnny is one of the few characters that d3 -> upknee actually works on because of his hitbox, so when you score a d3, cancel it into up knee to push him back and try to outfootsie him from there. I cannot express the amount of patience Noob has to show here. Also, it's not unreasonable to use EX upknee to help push him back in neutral, just make sure your spacing is right.

I'll get to Kitana later. Wrote this up earlier and left it to do some things. Now my train of thought is gone. lol.

 

[xSMoKEx]

Yeah, I talk mad shit about Sub Zero in this mu. I think it is really awful for him.
When I've spoken to xSmokex before, he told me that most good Smoke's call it a 6-4, but who knows. I've never felt it was bad as 3-7, but I also haven't played any top Smoke's, so the point is moot.
I disagree about Reptile and Kitana. I think Noob handles them both fine and it is completely to the will of the players.

It can probably be 7-3, I mean i gauged it back then off of online and it was 6-4, where lag plays a large factor and you can't reallt reaction jump, or sometimes even shake clones. If you think its more of a 7-3 then i'd definitely go with that.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Even though I promised myself I wouldn't talk about specifics about mus in this thread, I will say the strengths Noob has in those mus.

JC: Noob should never try to blindly zone at jump distance or a little before it, because JC can punish blocked shadows with shadow kick. Noob should always be reactionary with his shadows after he's made Johnny respect full screen zoning, so then when he's anticipating a shadow, you should AA with shadow charges to keep him outside of jump distance. If he is going to dash block in you just have to be patient. Don't throw any shadows. You have to outfootsie JC with B1 and up knee, while trying to whiff punish him inside distance with shadow charges (on reaction to his normals). Also, throwing out D4s to check Johnny as he tries to get in is smart, and if he is respecting shadows a lot, you can dash up and throw (it sounds stupid, but it works because Noob has such a good throw). Any time he jumps in you need to get a full AA punish and generally end it with EX Up knee to push him back full screen. Once Johnny gets in, you have to not rush getting out. It may sound whack, and I usually don't suggest cancelling pokes into specials, but Johnny is one of the few characters that d3 -> upknee actually works on because of his hitbox, so when you score a d3, cancel it into up knee to push him back and try to outfootsie him from there. I cannot express the amount of patience Noob has to show here. Also, it's not unreasonable to use EX upknee to help push him back in neutral, just make sure your spacing is right.

I'll get to Kitana later. Wrote this up earlier and left it to do some things. Now my train of thought is gone. lol.

Here we go my friend haha. Noob cannot (well should not) out footsie cage. Just looking at hitboxes and frame data you can clearly see that cage out footsies him. If noob outfootsies cage it is the players, not the matchup. Outside of jump distance a cage won't jump, they will armor through on reaction or block it.

 

[Grolarbears]

It can probably be 7-3, I mean i gauged it back then off of online and it was 6-4, where lag plays a large factor and you can't reallt reaction jump, or sometimes even shake clones. If you think its more of a 7-3 then i'd definitely go with that.

Ah, I actually meant to tag you but wasn't sure of your name on here. I am open to the idea of it being 7-3, because I know it gets the reputation of being that bad, but I need a play a high caliber Smoke player offline first. I've played several Smoke players offline, but I doubt I've played any of a strong enough level to justify calling it a 4-6 right now. There are small things in this mu that I don't see Noob players do, like countering any smoke towards with up knee, and occasionally teleslamming Smoke's smoke bomb on reaction to make them respect his option to do so more. Most people scoff when I mention teleslamming smoke bomb, but it can be done on reaction, even though it is tight timing. Even though something like that is hard to do, I think "match ups are supposed to reflect the highest level of play", and so wouldn't teleslamming smoke bombs on reaction be the highest level? Sorry for the random rant, but at the end of the day, I would be happy to play this mu with a high level Smoke to get a clear picture.

 

[Grolarbears]

Here we go my friend haha. Noob cannot (well should not) out footsie cage. Just looking at hitboxes and frame data you can clearly see that cage out footsies him. If noob outfootsies cage it is the players, not the matchup. Outside of jump distance a cage won't jump, they will armor through on reaction or block it.

It has begun. I'm going to leave this conversation at this:
" If noob outfootsies cage it is the players, not the matchup."

Hence, it is a 5-5 in my match up chart. I've beaten Showtime's and Gametime's Cages offline before. Showtime has even stated it's bad for JC. So, "SHRUG".

It never ends.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

It has begun. I'm going to leave this conversation at this:
" If noob outfootsies cage it is the players, not the matchup."

Hence, it is a 5-5 in my match up chart. I've beaten Showtime's and Gametime's Cages offline before. Showtime has even stated it's bad for JC. So, "SHRUG".

It never ends.

But cage's footsies are better than noob's. Lol.

 

[Grolarbears]

But cage's footsies are better than noob's. Lol.

I honestly think Cage's footsies aren't that great compared to the other shit Noob has to deal with in this game. Are his footsie tools better than Noob's? What are his footsie tools? Are they better than Upknee, Shadow Charge, D4, D3, and B1? Do they out range them? These are the questions I must ask when you say Cage's footsies are better than Noob's.

 

[Big D]

For shame, Grolar...For shame...

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

I honestly think Cage's footsies aren't that great compared to the other shit Noob has to deal with in this game. Are his footsie tools better than Noob's? What are his footsie tools? Are they better than Upknee, Shadow Charge, D4, D3, and B1? Do they out range them? These are the questions I must ask when you say Cage's footsies are better than Noob's.

b3 has almost exactly the same range as b1, but is faster, same with upknee and d4. When spaced correctly, fwd 3 beats d3 (and this is a very similar, ambiguous range from where b3 beats noob's other normals) and shadow charge is good, but obviously high risk since if blocked they will be punished by either a shadow kick or maybe even fwd 33 nutpunch, depending on the range. I would say that yes, cage clearly beats noob in footsies.

 

[Grolarbears]

b3 has almost exactly the same range as b1, but is faster, same with upknee and d4. When spaced correctly, fwd 3 beats d3 (and this is a very similar, ambiguous range from where b3 beats noob's other normals) and shadow charge is good, but obviously high risk since if blocked they will be punished by either a shadow kick or maybe even fwd 33 nutpunch, depending on the range. I would say that yes, cage clearly beats noob in footsies.

1. I don't throw shadow charges to check you on block. I throw shadow charges to whiff punish you when you try to be aggressive.

2. Up knee lowers Noob's hit box, has long duration frames, and outspaces anything Johnny can come at Noob with, if he starts a string.

3. B3 is a whiff punisher. Why would you need to whiff punish me with B3 unless you intentionally tried to make me B1 or D4? That is the player, not the character.

For shame, Grolar...For shame...

I have two responses to this.

1. I'm sorry, Big Daddy. ;_; I never meant to hurt you. I just decided it was time to move on.

and

2. WTF are you high. You literally told me face to face that I should pursue Raiden more. You're a rapist and a murderer. Fak you.

 

[Zoidberg747]

But cage's footsies are better than noob's. Lol.

Footsies have nothing to do with hitboxes or frame data. They have do with range and spacing tools(Well frame data to a certain extent, like whether something is safe or not etc.)

If you think it isnt 5-5 you have not faced Grolarbears.

Btw Grolar im picking up raiden, so if we meet up at another tourney we could run noob v. raiden if you want.

 

[NKZero]

I disagree a little with Sub Zero and Sektor. I think Sektor wins 7-3 and Sub Zero only loses 6-4. Just my opinion.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

1. I don't throw shadow charges to check you on block. I throw shadow charges to whiff punish you when you try to be aggressive.

2. Up knee lowers Noob's hit box, has long duration frames, and outspaces anything Johnny can come at Noob with, if he starts a string.

3. B3 is a whiff punisher. Why would you need to whiff punish me with B3 unless you intentionally tried to make me B1 or D4? That is the player, not the character.

b3 does not need to only be used as a whiff punisheer, it has ridiculous reach. And ok, if you want to upknee to keep cage off, since it is slower than fwd 3 and b3, you will ahve to commit to it. Cage still has farther reach and has to commit less than noob. Cage is not going to be aggressive, he is going to walk you into the corner because there is a range that he can safely attack you without much commitment (max fwd 3 and back 3) but noob cannot really hit him.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Footsies have nothing to do with hitboxes or frame data. They have do with range and spacing tools(Well frame data to a certain extent, like whether something is safe or not etc.)

If you think it isnt 5-5 you have not faced Grolarbears.

Btw Grolar im picking up raiden, so if we meet up at another tourney we could run noob v. raiden if you want.

By hit boxes I meant spacing, yes. As in b3 has a large hitbox, therefore it has long range and is a good footsies tool. And the speed of a move certainly comes into account in footsies. If two characters have similr range moves, the faster one will win.

 

[Zoidberg747]

By hit boxes I meant spacing, yes. As in b3 has a large hitbox, therefore it has long range and is a good footsies tool. And the speed of a move certainly comes into account in footsies. If two characters have similr range moves, the faster one will win.

Ah ok I see what you mean.

Dont want to be MU police so ill bow out of the discussion.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

Ah ok I see what you mean.

Dont want to be MU police so ill bow out of the discussion.

i certainly do not care, if you have something to say, go ahead and say it. All input is welcome. Just do not be insulted if I vehemently disprove something you say haha, but if you are right I will certainly let you know.

 

[HGTV DrFlash44]

I agree with quan, but I'm sad your dropping noob

 

[Zoidberg747]

i certainly do not care, if you have something to say, go ahead and say it. All input is welcome. Just do not be insulted if I vehemently disprove something you say haha, but if you are right I will certainly let you know.

Ive only watched the match so I dont have much to say. Just wanted to know what you meant by footsies and hitbox, but you cleared that up.

 

[OutworldKeith]

Even though I promised myself I wouldn't talk about specifics about mus in this thread, I will say the strengths Noob has in those mus.

JC: Noob should never try to blindly zone at jump distance or a little before it, because JC can punish blocked shadows with shadow kick. Noob should always be reactionary with his shadows after he's made Johnny respect full screen zoning, so then when he's anticipating a shadow, you should AA with shadow charges to keep him outside of jump distance. If he is going to dash block in you just have to be patient. Don't throw any shadows. You have to outfootsie JC with B1 and up knee, while trying to whiff punish him inside distance with shadow charges (on reaction to his normals). Also, throwing out D4s to check Johnny as he tries to get in is smart, and if he is respecting shadows a lot, you can dash up and throw (it sounds stupid, but it works because Noob has such a good throw). Any time he jumps in you need to get a full AA punish and generally end it with EX Up knee to push him back full screen. Once Johnny gets in, you have to not rush getting out. It may sound whack, and I usually don't suggest cancelling pokes into specials, but Johnny is one of the few characters that d3 -> upknee actually works on because of his hitbox, so when you score a d3, cancel it into up knee to push him back and try to outfootsie him from there. I cannot express the amount of patience Noob has to show here. Also, it's not unreasonable to use EX upknee to help push him back in neutral, just make sure your spacing is right.

I'll get to Kitana later. Wrote this up earlier and left it to do some things. Now my train of thought is gone. lol.

Even though I promised myself I wouldn't talk about specifics about mus in this thread, I will say the strengths Noob has in those mus.

JC: Noob should never try to blindly zone at jump distance or a little before it, because JC can punish blocked shadows with shadow kick. Noob should always be reactionary with his shadows after he's made Johnny respect full screen zoning, so then when he's anticipating a shadow, you should AA with shadow charges to keep him outside of jump distance. If he is going to dash block in you just have to be patient. Don't throw any shadows. You have to outfootsie JC with B1 and up knee, while trying to whiff punish him inside distance with shadow charges (on reaction to his normals). Also, throwing out D4s to check Johnny as he tries to get in is smart, and if he is respecting shadows a lot, you can dash up and throw (it sounds stupid, but it works because Noob has such a good throw). Any time he jumps in you need to get a full AA punish and generally end it with EX Up knee to push him back full screen. Once Johnny gets in, you have to not rush getting out. It may sound whack, and I usually don't suggest cancelling pokes into specials, but Johnny is one of the few characters that d3 -> upknee actually works on because of his hitbox, so when you score a d3, cancel it into up knee to push him back and try to outfootsie him from there. I cannot express the amount of patience Noob has to show here. Also, it's not unreasonable to use EX upknee to help push him back in neutral, just make sure your spacing is right.

I'll get to Kitana later. Wrote this up earlier and left it to do some things. Now my train of thought is gone. lol.

Dammmmnn! I never even used d3 upknee vs Cage. That will definitely help me when he's in my face!

 

[EMPEROR_THEO]

Grolarbears RYX InFlames I'll give a breakdown on the Jax-Noob MU and why I think its 6-4 Noob. I posted this reasoning on RYX's chart a while back on my other account.

Pros
-Noob negates Jax's ability to build meter at fullscreen since Jax can't wave, groundpound, or buffer metter with gotcha grab safely. The only way Jax builds meter in this matchup is by getting hit by Noob or getting whatever mickey mouse block string he can on Noob.
-Noob's (7 frame?) d3 is a good tool to escape Jax's blockstrings since they all leave him at neutral minus random advantage on F413.
-Noob gets into Jax's head very, very, very easily in this MU since he controls the entire pace of the MU from midscreen and afar. Period.
-When Jax touches Noob from midscreen, what damage can he possibly get on you for you to worry about? You guys should already be smart enough at this point to understand Jax's block string gaps and frame data to poke out.
-I don't even know what its like catching a groundpound on Noob after all this time maining Jax.
-Noob baits Jax's wakeup game well on a read.

Cons
-F413 connects on Noob, but as mentioned, be patient and poke out fellas. Noob requires patience.
-Corner is a problem for Noob. Like said before, be patient, see what's coming from his overheads and lows, and escape with finesse.
-Jax's EX dash punch should keep you on your toes due to its damage and anti-rolltech properties.
-A wise Jax will do his very best to bait your upshadow with footsies. Make your wakeup game confusing.

Cage goes even with Noob for one reason. His damage output/superglue like properties. Jax has no damage output (midscreen) and his pressure is less threatening. Most people who think this is in Jax's favor just say "NOOBS HITBAWK MAKES JAXS FORWARD FOUR STUFF KONNECT ON HIM AND WE ALL KNOW WHEN JAXS FAWRWARD FAWR CONNECT THE MATCH IS OVVUURRRR. SIX FAWR JAX MAYBE SEVEN THREEE".

If the best Jax's have some secret tech or strategy to make this MU a 5-5 or 4-6 Jax, I'm very open to being proven wrong. I am not stubborn at all when it comes to MU numbers. @EGP TYRANT, you are the best Jax no doubt and I trust your opinion on MU's more than mine. But this is the only matchup that if you say is 5-5 or 4-6 Jax, it will be the only time I will require hard evidence and really, really convincing reasoning.

Noob Saibot community, I trust you guys at this point to keep Jax out well enough and know how to block his pressure to keep this a 6-4 Noob.

 

[Big D]

You literally told me face to face that I should pursue Raiden more. You're a rapist and a murderer. Fak you.

Yeah, I told you to keep working with Raiden because he seemed to fit your playstyle. I didnt tell you to drop Noob for him. Gorlar pls

 

[Grolarbears]

Yeah, I told you to keep working with Raiden because he seemed to fit your playstyle. I didnt tell you to drop Noob for him. Gorlar pls

Bigga Boo D, plox.

 

[RYX]

Grolarbears I still have Quan as a 4-6, what's your general advice for dealing with him?

EMPEROR_THEO So the Jax community agrees with the number? I've always felt like Noob had the upper hand (shit, jax players even call me a counterpicker lol) and I'm starting to think Noob goes even with Cage.

It's weird how such a bad character does so well in these match-ups.

 

[Rude]

Every man comes to this, Grolar.

Once upon a time, I thought I would ride my way to the top as a Quan Chi only main.

I've since fallen in love with Reptile.
Noob will always be apart of you and really...I think we all have a little Noob inside us.

...Or we want to.

Are you disturbed yet?

*Sexual healing noises*

How about now?

 

[Lulzlou]

A noob playing a kabal at the highest level is like 8-2 lol.

Kabal can ex dash on reaction to any of noobs projectiles from anywhere on the screen. Noob doesn't recover in time for his projectiles to even matter. Kabal can also outzone noob. The only thing kabal has to worry about is the teleport but kabal can easily bait that since the iagb recovery is too good.

Noob winning by just outplaying the kabal player is extremely hard. Kabal controls the match up on all parts of the screen.