Match-up Discussion "I think you underestimate me!" Joker Match-up Discussion Thread

[Phosferrax]

I don't think lex loses the mu. It's party time when he gets his trait oki, but up until then it's a pain in the ass. It seems even to me, from Lexus perspective.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I don't think lex loses the mu. It's party time when he gets his trait oki, but up until then its a pain in the ass. It seems even to me, from Lexus perspective.

it's even

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Six.
Four.
Batgirl favor.
As strong as jokers neutrl game is. It is not as dangeroys as Ams neutral. The only time this MU becomes 5/5is when joker gets bg in the corner, which batgirl has like 50 options that get her out due to Jokers lack of mobility. He csn get zoned and rushed down. Joker needs gimmicks to win but BG is not having it.

I can agree with that assessment. Pretty much how I view the matchup as well.
Can you elaborate on Batgirls options to escape the corner a bit though? Or are they mostly just making the right read on when to Batwheel/teleport/etc?
I think the threat of smoke bomb causes her to dominate the zoning/respect war. Joker has to play it very cautiously, because one bad pull of the gun and she has you.
Oki against her is a bit of a read as well because you need to guess whether she's going to smoke bomb or batwheel on wakeup when she's in teeth, as Joker needs to use different options to counter each of those.
Pushes the fight in her favor. Thanks for the input bud.

Can you guys tag me when you start talking about Deathstroke please?

@Vengeance135
@StevoSuprem0
@Fromundaman
@any other Jokers discussing matchups in this thread

We'll do him next.

Can anyone explain HOW to play this match up first of all. Because the main of this is to learn what we CAN do to win.

Yes, we'll be covering that in more detail shortly. Can you elaborate on what you struggle with so we know what aspects to focus on?

 

[Vengeance135]

Wait was @SonicFox5000 joking about Joker having a strong neutral game?

 

[Vengeance135]

I agree 6-4 Batgirl and these are my reasons:
Joker has to be cautious with EVERYTHING HE DOES.
IMO this is a read based MU with Batgirl having more options to get her way and she will most definitely have more meter then Joker when push comes to shove. Joker has to take more risks to get more damage especially in the corner. If Batgirl hits you and you are towards the corner she will get 50+% easily as where Joker has to reset her to equal that damage and risk the wrong set up into his death. Also waking up on Batgirl should be a crime unless you know you will hit her because, of course, one hit will put you in a horrible situation. Jokers wakeups are sub-par at best. Jokers neutral game IS ASS and has only one truly safe way to play footsies, NOT TO GET IN, and lacks mobility which also hurts him in this MU. As far as air combat goes, Batgirl shouldn't jump at all unless she is going to teleport because Joker can beat her j2 and 3 options nearly everytime. Her J1 beats Jokers 2 and 3 but loses or trades with J1. However Joker shouldn't be Jumping reckless either because Batgirls flying bat can punish the shit out of his jumps EASY. Also if you manage to get a blocked J2 in on Batgirl she can flying bat you between your J2 and followup depending on where your blocked J2 was rather you follow up with 21 or 32. I think I said enough for now and if need be I will say more. Solid 6-4 Batgirl definitely no matter where it is

 

[SonicFox5000]

No he has a good neutral. But Bg deals wih it quite nicely. And steve Bat evade has invincibility frames on startup and bat evade 1 gets her out the corner

 

[StevoSuprem0]

No he has a good neutral. But Bg deals wih it quite nicely. And steve Bat evade has invincibility frames on startup and bat evade 1 gets her out the corner

Ah true. I haven't seen bat evade get exploited much in my limited experience against the character.
Also (this was a contentious topic previously, so I'm curious) what is it about Joker's neutral that you think is strong? We talked about this a little in the past, and while I think he has some strong tools, I think it's extremely difficult to navigate the neutral game with him, mostly because of his very poor mobility/whiff punishing abilities at some most ranges.
There was a big argument between some of the Joker players and a Batgirl player over who has the more difficult neutral game. Personally, I think that goes to Joker pretty easily, but I'm curious what you think, having played both, and why you feel the way you feel.

 

[Youphemism]

I guess we're waiting on Aquaman for now...
Soooooo...
Let's just put that annoying Batgirl crap to bed now!

Most of us believe this one to be a slight advantage in Batgirl's favor, primarily due to superior options in the neutral game (@Youphemism go ahead and state your case otherwise), while some believe it to be in more even territory. In a battle of strong corner shenanigans, does the advantage lie with the character that has safe 50/50 meterless adjective-filled vortexes all over the place, or the one that has all sorts of mind games to play with teeth? You decide; DISCUSS!
@SonicFox5000 you're input would be greatly appreciated, since you have experience with both these characters and are a disgustingly good player.
@Vengeance135 @Qwark28 @Fromundaman @AL Eevee @The_PantyChrist

Ok before I begin I'd like to address the fact that I have since changed my mind on the whole BG/Joker better neutral thing but I think it's better left to rest as a difference of opinions is the decent conclusion.

I say 5.5-4.5 BG favour because
Corner options/game? Pretty even imo
Midscreen damage? Pretty even if not slightly Joker's favour. Vortex ACTUAL damage is less than Jokers midscreen combo damage, vortex POTENTIAL damage is of course 100%. BG damage combos midscreen do about the same if not slightly less than Joker midscreen bnbs
Joker's jump normals are godlike
Most of, if not all of, Batgirls options in footsies range are negative/unsafe/punishable whereas Joker at least has some plus frames on common moves.
Batgirl can zone in this matchup a little, we still kind of have to be careful about gun though
Both have dash cancellable projectiles
Joker has generally faster lengthy normals
Batgirl of course has vortex
I told @BrianTheBEAST about a dirty corner setup with Joker that avoids/stuffs almost all, if not all, of BGs wakeups
I think I covered everything...

 

[StevoSuprem0]

I told @BrianTheBEAST about a dirty corner setup with Joker that avoids/stuffs almost all, if not all, of BGs wakeups

Which setup option do you believe to cover all of her wakeups?

 

[Youphemism]

Her J1 beats Jokers 2 and 3 but loses or trades with J1. However Joker shouldn't be Jumping reckless either because Batgirls flying bat can punish the shit out of his jumps EASY.

J1 only beats them if you do it preemptively/on a read, I tested it recently.

 

[Fromundaman]

Six.
Four.
Batgirl favor.
As strong as jokers neutrl game is. It is not as dangeroys as Ams neutral. The only time this MU becomes 5/5is when joker gets bg in the corner, which batgirl has like 50 options that get her out due to Jokers lack of mobility. He csn get zoned and rushed down. Joker needs gimmicks to win but BG is not having it.

Hold up... I can agree with all of this except the corner thing (And I don't truly think he gets zoned too badly, but we'll have to play at Summer Jam). Her options to get out of the corner are the same as everyone else's:
Guess right on what will hit first in the almost-unblockable setups and block correctly. Everything in the corner should be 33/33/33s off of an OTG or restand frame traps/mixups.



Also sorry, kind of forgot about this thread >.<


Anyway going to shower and change out of these smelly restaurant clothes then give a detailed write-up of how Eevee and I play this MU.


EDIT:

Going to rewatch the stream of Eevee winning a tournament while I write, so give it a minute.

 

[Youphemism]

Which setup option do you believe to cover all of her wakeups?

Maybe I'll tell you about it once I've definitely fully tested it

 

[StevoSuprem0]

Hold up... I can agree with all of this except the corner thing (And I don't truly think he gets zoned too badly, but we'll have to play at Summer Jam). Her options to get out of the corner are the same as everyone else's:
Guess right on what will hit first in the almost-unblockable setups and block correctly. Everything in the corner should be 33/33/33s off of an OTG or restand frame traps/mixups.



Also sorry, kind of forgot about this thread >.<


Anyway going to shower and change out of these smelly restaurant clothes then give a detailed write-up of how Eevee and I play this MU.

OTG stuff is a guess both ways, but the setups on KD's require a read as well, whereas in some other matchups we can use one option to cover everything they can due on wakeup, due to different invincibility characteristics on her wakeups.
For instance, if you go for a SHKD, if you do teeth into mb f3, most of her wakeups will get stuffed, but smoke bomb get's around it (and is directionless, so can't cross it up with ji2). If you read smoke bomb, you can just block and get a huge punish because teeth will launch her & you throw more teeth and do a 50+% juggle combo. I'm not exactly sure about how well bat evade works to escape setups, didn't mess with that much, will next chance I get. I was just screwing with this stuff the other day, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed like there's always a guess on her wakeups regardless of the setup.

 

[Vengeance135]

I'm no longer going to even take this discussion seriously after I seen Joker have a strong neutral and Joker and Batgirls corner game is even. Carry on.

 

[Vengeance135]

@StevoSuprem0 tag me when we start discussing the next character.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I can agree with that assessment. Pretty much how I view the matchup as well.
Can you elaborate on Batgirls options to escape the corner a bit though? Or are they mostly just making the right read on when to Batwheel/teleport/etc?
I think the threat of smoke bomb causes her to dominate the zoning/respect war. Joker has to play it very cautiously, because one bad pull of the gun and she has you.
Oki against her is a bit of a read as well because you need to guess whether she's going to smoke bomb or batwheel on wakeup when she's in teeth, as Joker needs to use different options to counter each of those.
Pushes the fight in her favor. Thanks for the input bud.

We'll do him next.

Yes, we'll be covering that in more detail shortly. Can you elaborate on what you struggle with so we know what aspects to focus on?

sorry I'm late. I just don't know what to do in the matchup. Stand back and bait teles or rush her down.

 

[Emperor Eevee]

I'm no longer going to even take this discussion seriously after I seen Joker have a strong neutral and Joker and Batgirls corner game is even. Carry on.

Their corner game is somewhat even. I feel Batgirls is slightly better(only because of the damage from combos ending in cartwheel). After MB Crowbar, Joker(with meter) has setups/resets that cycles back into itself and that either does the following:

1. Teeth reset - after forgetting to block teeth after flower

2. Leaves Joker plus - from blocking the teeth after flower. Can lead to block infinite.

3. OTG'd

Batgirl can keep the vortex going in the corner and can add some damage by adding f23( example: B12/B2u3>F23>D2>Bola I'm the only BG doing this and it's somewhat difficult) or by spending a bar on flying bat and canceling into D2>Bola. Flying bat, on reaction, can stop them from jumping out and can lead back into the vortex, the same with cartwheel depending on the distance. How long the vortex goes on for depends on your ability to guess right and/or the execution of the Batgirl player.

 

[Vengeance135]

Joker needs meter to cycle pressure, she really doesn't. She can carry Joker right to the corner ending in the corner with 50+% done into knockdown where Joker has to guess, Joker doesn't get that kind of damage unless you get a teeth J3 setup LOL nor pressure and plus frames again are irrelevant because if Batgirl feels pressured she can just pushblock and Joker is back to square one. Joker has to spend meter to get damage and even if he does it won't as close as what Batgirl can get in the corner. Batgirl doesn't need meter to fuck you up and she can get a high damaging corner combo with 1 bar lol. I for real cant take this conversation seriously guys lol.
I'm done here

 

[Emperor Eevee]

nor pressure and plus frames again are irrelevant

You just made my brain hurt. By that logic then Pre-patch Superman's F23>Breath is irrelevant as well. Yes, she can push block, so can Joker and the rest of the cast. Also, Joker builds meter at good rate. To combo/launch, with meter, Joker needs one bar, that is it. Yeah he has MB crowbar but that's for the corner OTG setups like I said a minute ago. And unlike other characters who run through Meter like candy cause they spend it that fast, he just has two moves that he needs/can choose to MB.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

You just made my brain hurt. By that logic then Pre-patch Superman's F23>Breath is irrelevant as well. Yes, she can push block, so can Joker and the rest of the cast. Also, Joker builds meter at good rate. To combo/launch, with meter, Joker needs one bar, that is it. Yeah he has MB crowbar but that's for the corner OTG setups like I said a minute ago. And unlike other characters who run through Meter like candy cause they spend it that fast, he just has two moves that he needs/can choose to MB.

F23 breath was an infinite and could be punished by supermans two frame super.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

When push blocked

 

[Emperor Eevee]

F23 breath was an infinite and could be punished by supermans two frame super.

Doesn't matter, it did what? Made him plus. @Vengeance135 just said plus frames are irrelevant

#BuffF23breath

 

[Vengeance135]

you just made my brain hurt. By that logic then Pre-patch Superman's F23>Breath is irrelevant as well. Yes, she can push block, so can Joker and the rest of the cast. Also, Joker builds me at good rate. To combo/launch, with meter, Joker needs one bar, that is it. Yeah he has MB crowbar but that's for the corner OTG setups like I said a minute ago. And unlike other characters who run through Meter like candy cause they spend it that fast, he just has two moves that he needs/can choose to MB.

I apologize bro I know I can be confusing and unclear, Let me rephrase that. Jokers plus frames are irrelevant.
Prepatch Superman had a strong neutral game and I'll break down what I am saying.
Batgirl gets that hit, she is guaranteed that 50+% damage with only one bar.
Joker get that hit, he has to spend meter to get her into a situation she can easily pushblock her way out or react and escape out of while Joker has to guess right in order to pushblock out. All of Jokers stuff is VERY reactable which means pushblocking is easy for her and anybody really.
Because she has an unreactable METERLESS vortex, she can store meter while Joker needs to spend meter to get her into situations that give him a chance only to have to guess right to keep it going because she has great options that not only get her out of the situations but put Joker in a shitty predicament.
All in all, there is NO WAY I can really take this discussion seriously. AL eevee if you want to discuss this with me we can do it in the PM. I have nothing more to say here until the next character

 

[Emperor Eevee]

Joker get 40-45 off one bar in the corner so what's your point? When teeth is thrown out after a MB crowbar, Batgirl has to block that b13(or b2 etc) and block the oncoming setup. If the fail to block, then that leads into combo back into said setup or possibly teeth reset. Blocking that setup does what? Leave him plus. Plus frames are good no mater what game or character you are playing and that's what you fail to understand. I know this MU because I run it Fromundaman over 100 times a week. Don't argue or tell me I'm wrong about this MU. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll try to get some sleep since at 11. But it's going to be hard since the image of someone actually saying plus frames are irrelevant is still burned into my brain and is now haunting me forever more.

 

[Vengeance135]

Joker get 40-45 off one bar in the corner so what's your point? When teeth is thrown out after a MB crowbar, Batgirl has to blok that b13(or b2 etc) and block the oncoming setup. If the fail to block, then that leads into combo back into said setup or possibly teeth reset. Blocking that setup does what? Leave him plus. Plus frames are good no mater what game or character you are playing and that's what you fail to understand. I know this MU because I run it Fromundaman over 100 times a week. Don't argue or tell me I'm wrong about this MU. Now if you'll excuse me, I'll try to get some sleep since at 11. But it's going to be hard since the image of someone actually saying plus frames are irrelevant is still burned into my brain and is now haunting me forever more.

Sorry man, I won't argue but I still think you are wrong. Playing one person shouldn't decide the entire MU. Plus frames are only as good as what you can do to follow up with it and if you are left at plus advantage and pushblocked, what are you going to do in neutral? nothing that can't be avoided or reacted to. Exactly why this discussion is a joke.