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How to Make Fighting Games by Mike Z (A lot of features I hope are in MKX)

RoGE

Kombatant

Really interesting presentation where Mike Z states things that fighting game developers should consider putting in their games. I am hoping NRS developers take a look at this video.

Maybe front page this @STORMS?

edit: also the camera work in this video is terrible.
 
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VenomX-90

"On your Knees!"
So everybody in the room is developers? or just random ppl just there to listen about the fighting games and how to make them in general?
 
Interesting presentation so far, thanks for sharing.

Idea's I liked- (I'll keep a list as I go through)

tap-to-set vs scroll-and-choose for control settings: It's something so obvious yet so many devs miss it. Just embarassing.

delay-to-pause- another good idea. You have to hold pause for half a second in versus mode in order to pause. Makes accidental pauses almost non-existent.

18 minutes in... still can't figure out how to use the presentation tech,...uuuuggghhh

Option to have stages automatically random select between rematches- a feature Injustice needs badly.

Match replays- definitely a must-have nowadays

Use GGPO- this netcode is proven, and really good. At this point it might as well be an industry standard.

"If you're game is going to be a broken pile of junk when people find out about it eventually, it's always a broken pile of junk even before they know about it." - argument against not including data like frame data and hitbox display. This is good, I remember the Tekken creator said they wanted to keep frame data a secret just to keep players from supposedly "exploiting" it by knowing too much.

Hitboxes while in hit-stun should be the same as standing-idle hitboxes to prevent dumb whiffs. YES!!!! (F*-ing Batgirl...)

Unblockable's shouldn't be still unblockable if the opponent is in blockstun (Great idea. This would have prevented Cyrax's dumb resets!)

Do not allow more than 1 thing to hit a character per frame (this would also prevent alot of broken resets, particularly high/low unblockables)

Allow jumping character's hitbox to go slightly below the floor when they do a jumping attack so it is not impossible to do a jump attack on low hitbox characters (would prevent Mileenas and Sonya's D4's from becoming ridiculously hard to jump-punch on)

Always allow sloppy-DP motions. One solution he says is to put in a hard limit where only one extra motion is allowed. Still allows for sloppy inputs, however players have a work-around to give them more precision.

"Automatically getting hit more, as a penalty for getting hit alot, is stupid"- this is a good indictment of Street Fighter 4's stun system.

And my FAVORITES:

"NEVER REQUIRE THE PLAYER TO HIT THREE BUTTONS AT THE SAME TIME FOR ANYTHING EVER."

"THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO MAKE A CHARACTER USE A HALF-CIRCLE MOTION FOR AN ATTACK."

"DOUBLE QUARTER CIRCLE IS NOT NECESSARY, STAHP."


SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT. THANK YOU!!!
 

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
Hitbox display!!!!!!

If MKX has that I'd be the happiest lab rat in the world.

Edit:

And recording any move (or jump) to be used as a reversal instead of just special moves. That is just tooo crucial for figuring out frame trap situations without help from another person.
 
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Art

Grave_Intent
Interesting presentation so far, thanks for sharing.

Idea's I liked- (I'll keep a list as I go through)

tap-to-set vs scroll-and-choose for control settings: It's something so obvious yet so many devs miss it. Just embarassing.

delay-to-pause- another good idea. You have to hold pause for half a second in versus mode in order to pause. Makes accidental pauses almost non-existent.

18 minutes in... still can't figure out how to use the presentation tech,...uuuuggghhh

Option to have stages automatically random select between rematches- a feature Injustice needs badly.

Match replays- definitely a must-have nowadays

Use GGPO- this netcode is proven, and really good. At this point it might as well be an industry standard.

"If you're game is going to be a broken pile of junk when people find out about it eventually, it's always a broken pile of junk even before they know about it." - argument against not including data like frame data and hitbox display. This is good, I remember the Tekken creator said they wanted to keep frame data a secret just to keep players from supposedly "exploiting" it by knowing too much.

Hitboxes while in hit-stun should be the same as standing-idle hitboxes to prevent dumb whiffs. YES!!!! (F*-ing Batgirl...)

Unblockable's shouldn't be still unblockable if the opponent is in blockstun (Great idea. This would have prevented Cyrax's dumb resets!)

Do not allow more than 1 thing to hit a character per frame (this would also prevent alot of broken resets, particularly high/low unblockables)

Allow jumping character's hitbox to go slightly below the floor when they do a jumping attack so it is not impossible to do a jump attack on low hitbox characters (would prevent Mileenas and Sonya's D4's from becoming ridiculously hard to jump-punch on)

Always allow sloppy-DP motions. One solution he says is to put in a hard limit where only one extra motion is allowed. Still allows for sloppy inputs, however players have a work-around to give them more precision.

"Automatically getting hit more, as a penalty for getting hit alot, is stupid"- this is a good indictment of Street Fighter 4's stun system.

And my FAVORITES:

"NEVER REQUIRE THE PLAYER TO HIT THREE BUTTONS AT THE SAME TIME FOR ANYTHING EVER."

"THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON TO MAKE A CHARACTER USE A HALF-CIRCLE MOTION FOR AN ATTACK."

"DOUBLE QUARTER CIRCLE IS NOT NECESSARY, STAHP."


SOMEONE FINALLY SAID IT. THANK YOU!!!
I'd like to add to this the goofy as hell command grabs from Injustice. D,B,F ..pain in the ass! PLEASE don't use them!
 

TomlulsBrady

Kombatant
Maybe Mike z should look at nrs on how to make a FG. NRS fgs move 4mil plus in sells why Mike Z loli fighters move niggas to sleep.
 

Cool_Prizes

Angry Joshua
Maybe Mike z should look at nrs on how to make a FG. NRS fgs move 4mil plus in sells why Mike Z loli fighters move niggas to sleep.
Please tell me your trolling....cause though I LOVE me sum NRS games....You can't deny how good Skullgirls is.
Sales don't make a game good.....Call of Duty is a perfect example of that. (Not saying MK or Injustice aren't good)
 

Circus

Part-Time Kano Hostage
Maybe Mike z should look at nrs on how to make a FG. NRS fgs move 4mil plus in sells why Mike Z loli fighters move niggas to sleep.
I don't play Skullgirls and am a huge NRS fanboy, but honestly man, you're wrong here. It's pretty clear you didn't watch the video.

MK9 had no hit trades, random frame data, wonky hitboxes, unintentional 100% resets, and tons more problems. The game was fun and great, but it had TONS of issues.

NRS has learned alot since then, but anyway, sales don't say anything about how solid a game is. Mike Z would be an asset in any fighting game's dev team, popular or not.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
Good fucking god, the irony that he's ragging on modern fighting games for waste and he didn't do a dry run of his hour and a half long presentation nor did anyone edit down the uhms uhs and mistakes is over 9000.
 

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
Good fucking god, the irony that he's ragging on modern fighting games for waste and he didn't do a dry run of his hour and a half long presentation nor did anyone edit down the uhms uhs and mistakes is over 9000.
It's just a presentation, not an entire videogame, apples and oranges my friend.
 

trufenix

bye felicia
It's just a presentation, not an entire videogame, apples and oranges my friend.
No, its not apples and oranges. Its oranges and oranges. Both represent good content, mired by poor delivery. This is good fucking information and MikeZ is clearly no intellectual slouch, but the fact that he didn't dry run, that his videos are poorly edited, that he seems to only have a tenuous grasp on how to operate his own laptop, and the fact that over a month later neither he nor anybody who wants to share this felt the need to edit into something concise illustrate the exact reasoning why devs continue to cut corners on games. Why bother? Its just a presentation people will watch anyway = Why bother? Its just a video game people will play anyway. Maybe he wants to keep this shit a secret, lord knows I'm not gonna finish this, and I'm more developer than half that audience.

He even makes the allegory himself by comparing his "please wait" on loading videos to the time wasted by shitty button config and parroting it throughout the presentation, so clearly he gets it, but at the end of the day, who cares, its just a panel either you watch it or you don't. If he wants people to take it serious, so should he.