How To Fix MK11: Breakaway

[Chernyy Volk]

"Wake up buttons" fall into the same category as "wake up jumps". If you read the breakaway not only are you on top of the opponent, you are at full advantage and can stuff any wake up button without fear of an u2, u3 or a roll. It's completely your turn in this scenario.

It's not. Layers of breakaway.

1: Do you think they will?
2: Do you drop your combo to read it?
3: When did they breakaway?
4: Are they doing short delay, long delay or regular get up?

Combine this with the fact that diferent buttons have different properties when done as a wakeup option INCLUDING EVEN EXTENDING BEYOND THE 21 FRAMES OF INVINCIBILITY ON SOME BUTTONS no. You are not at an advantage when your opponent breaks. You are mixing yourself up for being successful.

You CANNOT consistently successfully meaty people after breakaway. 3 frames of difference in terms of when they breakaway requires a whole different meaty. There is almost nothing in this game aside from the top five that allows you to just cover every wakeup option. I just played Hayatei in a FT10 today and I woke up D2'd him successfully more times than not because I mixed him up with breakaway+get up timing mixups.

 

[thlityoursloat]

It's not. Layers of breakaway.

1: Do you think they will?
2: Do you drop your combo to read it?
3: When did they breakaway?
4: Are they doing short delay, long delay or regular get up?

Combine this with the fact that diferent buttons have different properties when done as a wakeup option INCLUDING EVEN EXTENDING BEYOND THE 21 FRAMES OF INVINCIBILITY ON SOME BUTTONS no. You are not at an advantage when your opponent breaks. You are mixing yourself up for being successful.

You CANNOT consistently successfully meaty people after breakaway. 3 frames of difference in terms of when they breakaway requires a whole different meaty. There is almost nothing in this game aside from the top five that allows you to just cover every wakeup option. I just played Hayatei in a FT10 today and I woke up D2'd him successfully more times than not because I mixed him up with breakaway+get up timing mixups.

Liu Kang 123 and Noob f2/f1 (IDK the 9f high) on wakeup might as well be semi invincible.

 

[ABACABB]

My only problem with it is that some characters can be punished for doing combo lol For example joker if you end combo with 21 bf2 and he break before bf2 he can get up and full combo you before you recover .... I know there are more examples of this . Other thing is , input is stupid and sometimes I dont get it lol

 

[theotherguy]

You are not at an advantage when your opponent breaks.

But why should you be? They took their turn back with the breakaway. No different to when someone is plus after an attack, it's still their turn. They're the one with advantage, so you wait till there's an opening. Previously breakers left both sides at neutral, but now you want advantage after the opponent spent their bars?

Yes, you got the whiff into combo, but they had breakaway. The same way you're expecting them to take the damage if you consolidate on a whiff punish if breakaway wasn't a thing; the aggressor should respect their opponents position after a breakaway.

If the aggressor can go straight back into another 40% juggle before they've hit the ground, then what's the point of doing it in the first place?

I think they should have named it something else, then there won't be so much comparison to it being any sort of breaker/break mechanic. Maybe flip out? as it seems to match the way the people react to it.

 

[Wigy]

But why should you be? They took their turn back with the breakaway. No different to when someone is plus after an attack, it's still their turn. They're the one with advantage, so you wait till there's an opening. Previously breakers left both sides at neutral, but now you want advantage after the opponent spent their bars?

Yes, you got the whiff into combo, but they had breakaway. The same way you're expecting them to take the damage if you consolidate on a whiff punish if breakaway wasn't a thing; the aggressor should respect their opponents position after a breakaway.

If the aggressor can go straight back into another 40% juggle before they've hit the ground, then what's the point of doing it in the first place?

I think they should have named it something else, then there won't be so much comparison to it being any sort of breaker/break mechanic. Maybe flip out? as it seems to match the way the people react to it.

You break to avoid the damage.. you seem to be forgetting that one. You make out like you're guaranteed to get demolished without meter on wakeup when Oki is very weak in this game.

Not to mention with the pace of the match being slower than other mk games and continually regenerating meter, we have an already uninspired combo game being constantly cucked by breakaway

 

[DeftMonk]

i think this mechanic wouldnt be so hated on if everyone had baraka (or at least higher than normal bnb) damage off a juggle but also had 280ish damage options off non launch extenders

 

[Savage8-8]

It's not. Layers of breakaway.

1: Do you think they will?
2: Do you drop your combo to read it?
3: When did they breakaway?
4: Are they doing short delay, long delay or regular get up?

Combine this with the fact that diferent buttons have different properties when done as a wakeup option INCLUDING EVEN EXTENDING BEYOND THE 21 FRAMES OF INVINCIBILITY ON SOME BUTTONS no. You are not at an advantage when your opponent breaks. You are mixing yourself up for being successful.

You CANNOT consistently successfully meaty people after breakaway. 3 frames of difference in terms of when they breakaway requires a whole different meaty. There is almost nothing in this game aside from the top five that allows you to just cover every wakeup option. I just played Hayatei in a FT10 today and I woke up D2'd him successfully more times than not because I mixed him up with breakaway+get up timing mixups.

We are talking about 2 different things here. If the problem is you cant consistently meaty someone when they wake up with buttons or jumps then the problem isn't the breakaway. You are basically saying that wake up options are too strong which is something I definitely agree with. But my scenario describes when you READ the breakaway. If they come up off their defensive meter and they breakaway and I'm at neutral, it is absolutely my turn. I can press buttons before the person on the ground can. What your describing is the difficulty of stuffing the wake up options in general. But it's much more easy to pressure someone if they have no defensive bar.

 

[Savage8-8]

But why should you be? They took their turn back with the breakaway. No different to when someone is plus after an attack, it's still their turn. They're the one with advantage, so you wait till there's an opening. Previously breakers left both sides at neutral, but now you want advantage after the opponent spent their bars?

Yes, you got the whiff into combo, but they had breakaway. The same way you're expecting them to take the damage if you consolidate on a whiff punish if breakaway wasn't a thing; the aggressor should respect their opponents position after a breakaway.

If the aggressor can go straight back into another 40% juggle before they've hit the ground, then what's the point of doing it in the first place?

I think they should have named it something else, then there won't be so much comparison to it being any sort of breaker/break mechanic. Maybe flip out? as it seems to match the way the people react to it.

You should definitely be at a disadvantage for using breakaway. If I'm getting combo'd in the first place I already made a mistake. I shouldn't be rewarded for breaking my opponents combo. I should be sacrificing something for another chance to stay in the fight.

 

[Rude]

There is no pressuring someone on breakaway. You are mixing yourself up when they breakaway.

Salt.

 

[theotherguy]

You break to avoid the damage.. you seem to be forgetting that one

I don't think that needs to be explained, that's the whole point of it. Except that in many cases you can still take a chunk of damage during the falling armoured frames, depending on the combo.

You make out like you're guaranteed to get demolished without meter on wakeup when Oki is very weak in this game.

Not sure where you're getting that from? I'm pointing out that there is a risk taken in using breakaway, it's not free. It might not be as some want, a free for all guaranteed setup into an insta-death combo, but there is a risk.

I should be sacrificing something for another chance to stay in the fight.

You are - spacing & meter. Advantage doesn't have to be literal plus frames.

So no wakeup options, breakaway for at least 25 seconds, possibly more depending on your usage of U+2/3. And as above, you still may have taken some damage after the breakaway depending on the combo and when it was broken.

Taking away the "i should be at advantage" argument, how can you say that you haven't sacrificed something after using breakaway?

If there are characters that are still good without def meter, then that's a character issue (and/or trait depending on how you look at it), not a fault of the mechanic.

If they remove breakaway, you still have characters that are good, just now they'll be even better because a whiff would then be a guaranteed punish, instead of the possibility of being broken and they'd have their other wakeup options. All it does is push the game to be even more offense based.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

I don't think that needs to be explained, that's the whole point of it. Except that in many cases you can still take a chunk of damage during the falling armoured frames, depending on the combo.



Not sure where you're getting that from? I'm pointing out that there is a risk taken in using breakaway, it's not free. It might not be as some want, a free for all guaranteed setup into an insta-death combo, but there is a risk.



You are - spacing & meter. Advantage doesn't have to be literal plus frames.

So no wakeup options, breakaway for at least 25 seconds, possibly more depending on your usage of U+2/3. And as above, you still may have taken some damage after the breakaway depending on the combo and when it was broken.

Taking away the "i should be at advantage" argument, how can you say that you haven't sacrificed something after using breakaway?

If there are characters that are still good without def meter, then that's a character issue (and/or trait depending on how you look at it), not a fault of the mechanic.

If they remove breakaway, you still have characters that are good, just now they'll be even better because a whiff would then be a guaranteed punish, instead of the possibility of being broken and they'd have their other wakeup options. All it does is push the game to be even more offense based.

You are getting mixed up for comboing somebody. How anyone can see this as anything different is really beyond me.

 

[imMORTAL KOMBATant]

It's not. Layers of breakaway.

1: Do you think they will?
2: Do you drop your combo to read it?
3: When did they breakaway?
4: Are they doing short delay, long delay or regular get up?

Combine this with the fact that diferent buttons have different properties when done as a wakeup option INCLUDING EVEN EXTENDING BEYOND THE 21 FRAMES OF INVINCIBILITY ON SOME BUTTONS no. You are not at an advantage when your opponent breaks. You are mixing yourself up for being successful.

You CANNOT consistently successfully meaty people after breakaway. 3 frames of difference in terms of when they breakaway requires a whole different meaty. There is almost nothing in this game aside from the top five that allows you to just cover every wakeup option. I just played Hayatei in a FT10 today and I woke up D2'd him successfully more times than not because I mixed him up with breakaway+get up timing mixups.

That's what I like about Breakaway and about this game. Layers and options.

You are a skilled player, as is Sonic, as is Dragon. MKX matches could be over within 20 seconds if there was a significant skill gap. Now it's much more even, we, lesser players, have a fighting chance if we have a basic understanding of the game. That's a good thing IMO. I'm not good at hitconfirming so whenever I finally do it succesfully and my hard earned kombo opportunity is taken away by Breakaway I should be mad. But I'm not because I'm aware of these options. Whenever I notice wake-up tendencies, like someone always prefers rolls to U2/U3 and I punish it to end the set or I punish, they mix it up and I'm ready and punish that, that's a good feeling. Top level is not the only thing that exists and maybe not everyone in the world wants to have less options and be killed as fast as possible.

You cannot consistently succesfully meaty after Breakaway? So what? Just as you described your experience against Hayatei, neither could he or anyone. You have the same options, same tools, use it! Fighting games are all about decisions, reads, instincts and taking risks. If you could consistently succesfully punish Breakaways every time with more - now unavoidable - damage then what would be the point of it? I didn't like the mindless pressure of MKX, not even when it was my turn. MK11 was intended to be about slower pace, less damage and that means you must land more succesful hits to win than before. I like that much better than a match that's over in 3 kombos. If you watch Kombat Cup Top 8 from yesterday, there were some rounds that were over fast with Krushing Blows in play. Skilled and trained players can still melt healthbars like krazy. But with options, the game is much more enjoyable for me for example.

MKX was not for my liking. Maybe MK11 is not for yours. Maybe Injustice 3 or MK12 would be the game that's everything you want.

 

[terminatrix]

i just watched some video footage from cherny. he seems legit free. i dont get how this person is telling how to fix mk11 in multiple threads.

 

[Savage8-8]

You are - spacing & meter. Advantage doesn't have to be literal plus frames.

So no wakeup options, breakaway for at least 25 seconds, possibly more depending on your usage of U+2/3. And as above, you still may have taken some damage after the breakaway depending on the combo and when it was broken.

Taking away the "i should be at advantage" argument, how can you say that you haven't sacrificed something after using breakaway?

I never said the opponent isn't sacrificing anything after a breakaway. I'm implying that he may not be sacrificing enough. To be clear I'm talking about the scenarios where someone does a breakaway, gets up and full combo punishes the opponent. I believe that this shouldn't be the case because the opponent lost neutral and got opened up. In that scenario the person doing the breakaway should be at most neutral. Not at advantage. Even in mkx and mk9, the breakers never gave you advantage. They reset to neutral.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

I never said the opponent isn't sacrificing anything after a breakaway. I'm implying that he may not be sacrificing enough. To be clear I'm talking about the scenarios where someone does a breakaway, gets up and full combo punishes the opponent. I believe that this shouldn't be the case because the opponent lost neutral and got opened up. In that scenario the person doing the breakaway should be at most neutral. Not at advantage. Even in mkx and mk9, the breakers never gave you advantage. They reset to neutral.

Mk9 breakers did give advantage in some cases

 

[Braindead]

Mk9 breakers did give advantage in some cases

Break in the air close to the ground and you get a free OTG d3 lol

 

[Savage8-8]

Mk9 breakers did give advantage in some cases

Break in the air close to the ground and you get a free OTG d3 lol

Lol totally forgot about that. My bad.

 

[theotherguy]

If you watch Kombat Cup Top 8

From the matches i watched, players used breakaways once in a round. That was it. There were very rare situations where they had enough bar to use it again, but they were at the end of their lifebar so was never going to happen. There was one match where i saw it was used twice.

So it was never a case of they could have if they wanted to, it was that they literally couldn't do it more than once in a round. That is one possible punish that was lost. After that they were free to do whatever they wanted without worry of breakaway. What's more, in most games the breakaways happened relatively early in the round. They were without breakaway for most of the round, rather than it being used at the end and stuffing out a possible winning juggle.

Personally, I'd make breakaways only once per round.

See above.

Unless the match is heavily projectile based, there's a lot of nothing happening or a player is consciously not using wakeup attacks to save meter, it's very rare that you'll see more than one breakaway per character per round.

I never said the opponent isn't sacrificing anything after a breakaway. I'm implying that he may not be sacrificing enough.

I should be sacrificing something for another chance to stay in the fight.

While that may have been your intent, there is no implication of that in that sentence. And that is what i replied to.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

That's what I like about Breakaway and about this game. Layers and options.

You are a skilled player, as is Sonic, as is Dragon. MKX matches could be over within 20 seconds if there was a significant skill gap. Now it's much more even, we, lesser players, have a fighting chance if we have a basic understanding of the game. That's a good thing IMO. I'm not good at hitconfirming so whenever I finally do it succesfully and my hard earned kombo opportunity is taken away by Breakaway I should be mad. But I'm not because I'm aware of these options. Whenever I notice wake-up tendencies, like someone always prefers rolls to U2/U3 and I punish it to end the set or I punish, they mix it up and I'm ready and punish that, that's a good feeling. Top level is not the only thing that exists and maybe not everyone in the world wants to have less options and be killed as fast as possible.

You cannot consistently succesfully meaty after Breakaway? So what? Just as you described your experience against Hayatei, neither could he or anyone. You have the same options, same tools, use it! Fighting games are all about decisions, reads, instincts and taking risks. If you could consistently succesfully punish Breakaways every time with more - now unavoidable - damage then what would be the point of it? I didn't like the mindless pressure of MKX, not even when it was my turn. MK11 was intended to be about slower pace, less damage and that means you must land more succesful hits to win than before. I like that much better than a match that's over in 3 kombos. If you watch Kombat Cup Top 8 from yesterday, there were some rounds that were over fast with Krushing Blows in play. Skilled and trained players can still melt healthbars like krazy. But with options, the game is much more enjoyable for me for example.

MKX was not for my liking. Maybe MK11 is not for yours. Maybe Injustice 3 or MK12 would be the game that's everything you want.

Where was this game intended to be about less damage? This was never stated and is disproven by the existence of KB's.

I play all NRS games right? So I play Inj and MK both. You're missing the point here, which is that the game is INSANELY variable. It is impossible to be a better player and consistently control somebody in this game. It's a constant scramble all the time.

MK11 was INTENDED, WE HAVE A DEV STATED INTENTION IN PRINT, TO BE ABOUT NEUTRAL AND FOOTSIES. it's been a meme before in this scene, but THIS TIME WE HAD A DEV STATEMENT ON THIS. Breakaway PUNISHES YOU FOR HAVING BETTER NEUTRAL AND FOOTSIES, it flies in the face of what the game was designed for. I think you're missing the point here. It's NOT JUST that you can't consistently meaty people in this game, it's that often enough, you have to spend a resource JUST to get them to break AND THAN you have to play the oki mind-game that is not essentially in your favor. The opponent gets to be wrong TOO MANY TIMES in this game. No amount of grinding makes this aspect of the game any better for anybody.

 

[Zviko]

Wasn't it you who said you don't understand why people complain about so many wake up options when jump beats almost every one of them? And that maybe there aren't enough wake up options because of that? Now you are saying the opposite...

 

[Rude]

Wasn't it you who said you don't understand why people complain about so many wake up options when jump beats almost every one of them? And that maybe there aren't enough wake up options because of that? Now you are saying the opposite...

This reminds me of the time he said that the game had bad anti airs while simultaneously saying that stand 1 and d1 anti airs were too good and needed to be nerfed.

This is actual clown shoes logic.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

This reminds me of the time he said that the game had bad anti airs while simultaneously saying that stand 1 and d1 anti airs were too good and needed to be nerfed.

This is actual clown shoes logic.

I don't see how this is hard but considering your IQ Rude it doesn't surprise me this evades you.

Jab and crouch normal anti airs literally delete jumping from the game.

Other characters just have to hold the shit.

There needs to be a crunching of this into the middle ground. Reliable anti airs that require half read/half reaction.

 

[Chernyy Volk]

Wasn't it you who said you don't understand why people complain about so many wake up options when jump beats almost every one of them? And that maybe there aren't enough wake up options because of that? Now you are saying the opposite...

You're dishonestly twisting my words here. Yes, jump overs are often an OS against 90% of the wakeup options in terms of giving you safety against being blown up but it doesn't always end in a reward. We're talking about if you're trying to get a 100% sure reward and the risk you take on it in this scenario.

 

[Rude]

I don't see how this is hard but considering your IQ Rude it doesn't surprise me this evades you.

Jab and crouch normal anti airs literally delete jumping from the game.

Other characters just have to hold the shit.

There needs to be a crunching of this into the middle ground. Reliable anti airs that require half read/half reaction.

Clown shoes. What color are yours? Do they squeak when you walk?

 

[Rude]

I don't see how this is hard but considering your IQ Rude it doesn't surprise me this evades you.

Jab and crouch normal anti airs literally delete jumping from the game.

Other characters just have to hold the shit.

There needs to be a crunching of this into the middle ground. Reliable anti airs that require half read/half reaction.

Also, if they "delete jumping from the game," how is it then that nearly daily yourself and many other complain culture clowns on Twitter talk about how good jumping still is? It can't be both.

This is like that time you made that clown shoes tier list where nearly half the cast was tournament viable, even literally having a column labeled, "viable with a secondary" and then said that column was unviable, despite that very block starting with the word, "viable."

Do you...not know what words mean?

Clown. Shoes.