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How is Nightwolf not OP. But cyrax is?

Rapid

Magical Gaming Wizard
Nightwolf is without a doubt an incredibly solid character. But you still have to know your character, learn the matchups, and work for the win. He's not just button memorization and wins off of two nets. If a Nightwolf beats you, well you got beat. With Cyrax it just feels wrong, you feel like you lost for the wrong reasons, like broken damage.
 

Past

Noob
He used cage in like 2 matches, and 1 he lost.

Nori, it depends on how you consider a character top tier, because NW kicks the crap out of the majority of the cast, excluding obviously the top 3-5, but the same could be said for Cage, most of his bad matchups are characters at the top (Cyrax/Reptile/Kabal/Raiden) so does that also make cage not a top tier character? (I dont consider him to be but thats besides the arguement :p)

The way I like to look at a tier list is: Who has the least bad matchups?

NW in general must have about 4 (KL/Kabal/Raiden/Reptile)5 if you wanna count Mileena (Ketchup thinks so)
Cage has about 9 (Noob/Raiden/Kabal/SZ/Skarlet/Kitana/Cyrax/Kenshi/Sindel)

And yet JC is considered top tier and people are now starting to think that NW isnt?

You cant base a tier list off of tournament placings of characters, because not all players are equal and therefore not all characters will be able to place according to how good they are compared to another character.
What about a weighted average tier list based on frequency of the character? That sounds even better. Who cares if your character has a bad match-up with jade because you'll rarely see her. Having a bad matchup with subzero should be worse than having a bad matchup with jade when it comes to tournament viability and that should be reflected.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
What about a weighted average tier list based on frequency of the character? That sounds even better. Who cares if your character has a bad match-up with jade because you'll rarely see her. Having a bad matchup with subzero should be worse than having a bad matchup with jade when it comes to tournament viability and that should be reflected.
Theres no point doing it based on frequency of the character being used because if thats the case then characters like NW,Sonya,Sektor and CSZ should all be put near the bottom of the list because hardly anybody uses them in tournament, yet theyre all very good characters that can fight against the established top tiers relatively well.

And if its by frequency wouldnt that make mileena and JC the 2 best characters because they can beat reptile / KL (respectively) who seem to be most common
 

Past

Noob
Theres no point doing it based on frequency of the character being used because if thats the case then characters like NW,Sonya,Sektor and CSZ should all be put near the bottom of the list because hardly anybody uses them in tournament, yet theyre all very good characters that can fight against the established top tiers relatively well.

And if its by frequency wouldnt that make mileena and JC the 2 best characters because they can beat reptile / KL (respectively) who seem to be most common
established top tiers~common use in tournaments
If NW, Sonya, Sektor can fight the top then they would be higher in the weighted list than the normal list because they are more common. Same goes for Mileena and Cage. This list would be guideline in answering the question of "which character would give me the highest chance of winning in a tournament?".
 

Error

DF2+R2
Nightwolf's can be annoying, but nowhere near as OP as Sonya, that bitch can combo off of anything including her dive kick which can be deceiving at first.






trololol
 
Sometimes everyone is so distraught on arguing that they forget some minor details on what makes a character good.

Seems as everyone has over looked one factor, and that factor being the player.

Here I'll further clarify,

For everyone that's surprised a cyrax didn't make top 8 remember this.no matter how good or broken a character is if the player is not good then the character won't be either we players make the characters good not the other way around.yeah cyrax might do crazy damage with one bar but so fucking what? Do I think it should be nerfed? Yes a little less damage and that's it I play jax one of the "worst"characters in the game and my bother plays cyrax and we go back and forth why?1.I adapt 2.I learned the matchup 3.not to sound cocky but I think I'm a good mk player.so to all you cyrax haters that don't know shit about the character stop complaing and deal with it.you know how hard it is to play cyrax? He is one of the harder character to play believe it or not trust me I've been fighting cyrax since the game came out.so please just stop with the nerf this nerf that is so annoying. Learn to play the game.
A characters usefulness and viability is entirely dependent upon the player, and how they execute, and perform with a certain character. Just because a character isn't showing up in top placements in tournaments doesn't invalidate their viability as a top tier or low tier character. On any given day, just like in sports, each character HAS a potential to win or lose based upon the player and the opponents skill.

You can have a lower tier character being played correctly going up against a higher tier and still win, or vice versa. The player and their opponent are a pretty big factor on the performance of characters.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that tiers are based upon player/opponent, I'm just clarifying that people think that X or Y character is good/not good based upon placings.

Without taking into considerations, placings to determine tiers, it all boils down to the character itself.

What I mean by this is when you strip down a character to its core design, it's 'blueprint', taking into account their specials, normals, frames on abilities and moves, options on ground/air, etc, and you compare that to others, based upon the pros and cons the said character has over others, determines a characters ranking, NOT on the frequency on tournament placings.

The last Cyrax to win a tourney was Hadocon IIRC was with MichaelAngelo.

Take or leave it, this is just my thoughts.
 

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
A characters usefulness and viability is entirely dependent upon the player, and how they execute, and perform with a certain character. Just because a character isn't showing up in top placements in tournaments doesn't invalidate their viability as a top tier or low tier character. On any given day, just like in sports, each character HAS a potential to win or lose based upon the player and the opponents skill.



The last Cyrax to win a tourney was Hadocon IIRC was with MichaelAngelo.

Take or leave it, this is just my thoughts.
I must be talking to myself, I've said the same shit since day 1. Its the player not the character.

BTW the last Cyrax to win a major was Mustard.
 

JrK

Probably Drunk
I know its the player.

But factually tiers do exist, refer to above why.
Then why do we get quotes saying "REO is playing Kung Lao until NRS makes him a fair character, that is all, then on to the next. "

If it was the player then...
 

RWDY Nori

Where is crossplay?
Then why do we get quotes saying "REO is playing Kung Lao until NRS makes him a fair character, that is all, then on to the next. "

If it was the player then...
Well he might be annoyed because Mileena takes work and KL.........doesn't? He had PL beat several times at Evo and choked the match away. He refused to block low when PL did 2, 4, low hat mixups about 19,924 times. So like Brady, he figures the easy way out would be using KL. That's not always the case. REO is arguably the best MK player in the world (key word, arguably) but he messed up multiple times vs PL. Hell PL almost lost to a friend of mine, DevilJim on the stream and most people forget the chars to do the most damage to PL was Mileena. The fact is, PL put on his game face and just shit on them. It wasn't KL that owned the tournament, it was PL. People forget this


Foxxy: I don't think anybody thinks JC is top tier. I think he's a very popular char to use cause let's be honest, he's fun as shit to play and just mentally rapes people in the process. I don't think any JC player impresses me as much as you do, but I still don't feel he's top tier.

As a whole though, the community can agree Raiden is a better char than NW. Just look at his tools, damage output, mixups, etc. And no, tiers are not SOLELY based off of tourney results, but loosely. You have to think of it this way: Evo had 500 people. It's very simple, if Sonya/NW/CSZ are as good as people say, why weren't they well represented? Why didn't those masters of their chars place higher?

And in this game, saying NW isn't top tier but upper mid only is certainly not a bad thing. I want to be crystal clear, I DO feel the right NW can come along and win a tournament w/the best of the best players. Is it going to be harder than using Kabal/Cyrax/Raiden/Kitana/Reptile/KL? Abso fucking lutely
 

Ninj

Where art thou, MKX Skarlet?
yes, i think NW's Axe and EX lightening are the most stupid moves in the game. It's way worse than KL's spin. You can punish KL's spin. You say you can punish the axe? Prove it. I'll gladly take back every single complaint about NW if you can prove that the axe is punishable on block. I'm just asking for one vulnerability.

Please don't do things like say "Just duck and uppercut the shoulder chargres" and then go on to agree with me saying "Any NW will only surprise you with Charges, so ducking them is useless." You're just setting up false criticisms of my complaints and then going on to agree with the problem. I don't care at all that I can duck and punish a retarded online Nightwolf abusing the Charge.

You seem to take issue that I point out anything! Yes, I already know that other character's have fastest uppercuts like NW. My only point was that this is yet ANOTHER thing about NW that is powerful. My argument is that he has so many powerful things, including the uppercut, that he is "Overpowered". Let people have amazing uppercuts. But you know, unpunishable safe-on-block offense and unescapable lightening setups for extra 30% combos is too much.

Again, if you show me that his Axe is punishable, I'll retract every single complaint. He can have as many powerful things as he wants as long as there is some kind of punishment for blocking something he does.

I'd also like you to back up your claim about "only if the opponent stays turtling. Just dash block, honestly" when it comes to the EX Lightening on knockdown. You tell me some method of getting off the ground as he does it that has more than a 10% reliability of escaping it. I don't want to hear about Raiden's teleport or Reptile's dash.
Skarlet must just be Nightwolf's counter then, because I've never fought a Nightwolf who can consistently win matches. Yes, he has strengths. Most of his moves also have weaknesses.

Shoulder - duck and uppercut, regardless. Rarely do NW's ONLY ever use this to finish a combo.

Lightning - incredibly weak - stricter timing than Scorpion's hellfire and has much longer cooldown

Arrows - not sure you even listed this as a strength

Reflect - situational, but good for absorbing health

Combos - block low, then block high...always. Meh.

It's possible I've only ever fought truly poor Nightwolf's, but my personal opinion is that I've fought some ones that do know his mechanics and strengths, play to them, and still lose.
 

AK L0rdoftheFLY

I hatelove this game
Ok a ton of really bad points made. Let me clarify a few things.

Did NW break top 16 at evo? Yes
Teabag made it to top 16. I was eliminated one win short by Detroit ballin. But that is two NW that made it pretty damn far...and that's two of like 3 NW players that entered.

Can NW compete at majors? Yes
See last question above.

Does NW have all the tools to be top tier? Yes
But other characters tend to have better tools...this doesn't make him bad just not as high as people think.

NW has only a handful of bad match ups. And at worst they are 6-4.(even Kung Lao). What hurts NW is that his bad matchups are all the highest tiers. That hurts his tourney value.

Only the most patient players can win with NW. A rush down NW against the highest level players is gonna lose.
NW is meant to be played defensively while capitalizing on zoning. NW down side is that while on block all his moves are safe, they all can also be easily avoided for huge punishes. So being too aggressive is a bad idea for NW. Being patient is the best way to play.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Well he might be annoyed because Mileena takes work and KL.........doesn't? He had PL beat several times at Evo and choked the match away. He refused to block low when PL did 2, 4, low hat mixups about 19,924 times. So like Brady, he figures the easy way out would be using KL. That's not always the case. REO is arguably the best MK player in the world (key word, arguably) but he messed up multiple times vs PL. Hell PL almost lost to a friend of mine, DevilJim on the stream and most people forget the chars to do the most damage to PL was Mileena. The fact is, PL put on his game face and just shit on them. It wasn't KL that owned the tournament, it was PL. People forget this
Actually, hate me if you must but I'd put it down to Reo being blinded too hard by Cyrax's reset opportunities, instead of just zoning PL out patiently. In that particular game anyway.

And that being said, from what I can see Under_the_Mayo never confirmed who his main is when Metallica asked, I smell a 'rax..
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
No no, im defintely no fan of Cyrax. My mains are Quan and Kenshi. But I've been focusing heavy on Sektor lately because I feel like got great attributes all around for going up against higher tier characters. He has great close pressure, and my other guys don't. I don't like playing any characters in the "top".

So, I check back today and I can't believe this thread has gone on to 5 pages without me. Awesome. I really really want to say that all this arguing and talk about NW and my frustrations from my drunken MK party last Saturday have given me sooo much to think about.

Thanks to all the discussion, especially on MKU, but definitely here too, I've been able to meditate long on my approach, and come out with a very cool-headed strong Kenshi in my NW fights lately. If I don't win, I'm at least in there for a damn good fair fight, only occasionally getting raped. :)

So I hope there's no hurt feelings or anything like that. And I appreciate the passionate discussion about all this. Thank you.
 

GNG Iniquity

#bufftaquito #punchwalk #whiffycage
Pointless thread, much? I've just skimmed through this, but I'm going to sum it up in one word...


MOTHER FUCKING RESETS! that's how.