Question - Piercing How does Piercing dominate Grandmaster?

[Damaja325]

7-3 mileena midscreen
7-3 sub in corner

in order for this mu to stay 7-3 in mileena's favor u can't let this bastard touch you. can't use ex moves because that meter is too precious to not have it ready for a breaker. mileena has to play strong neutral or else to the corner she goes.

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Any other good piercings on xbl care to practice with me? foxys PS now so i cant use him for the mu

 

[MadeOfMetal]

I don't play Mileena but it seems pretty obvious.

Grandmaster needs the corner to be effective, whereas Mileena can fight from literally anywhere on screen. Sub hasn't got many great ways to get in since slide is unsafe if blocked, you'd have to get the spacing really well and even then it's not your turn after. Mileena can punish most clone cancels with meterburn roll if I'm not mistaken (tell me if I am), she has much better damage in general than Sub unless we're talking about the corner but even then Mileena hits hard in the corner. Add to that the fact that Mileena builds meter like her life depends on it, she can break anytime Sub gets a hit on her and then it's back to the zoning, run up throw, telekick into sai game that we all know and love (hate). Mileena has every tool that you could possibly need in this game and is viable from any part of the screen. Grandmaster is so predicated on the corner that all Mileena has to do is avoid getting cornered, which isn't hard given all I've mentioned thus far. Sub doesn't really have a good footsie tool to counter b12 with other than maybe d4 (again I might be wrong).

Basically you have to play Mileena's game 90% of the time and if Sub does get in, you probably have a breaker from all the sais you've thrown so it's right back to square one.

i don't agree, i think and believe yes Mileena is very strong but lets remeber Grandmaster is better in the corner without a doubt, and lets not act like Grandmaster has a hard time carrying an opponent there! GM does way more meterless damage than Mileena and his are far more practicle. hers is off a F3 33 frame OH that lets face it can be conditioned but acting like that move is easy to land is being unrealistic. yes can be done, but it is very reactible to both professionals and Nobbs alike.

on the other hand Grandmaster has a very usefull and deadly B2 that is quite hard to punish. has no shortage of moves in midscreen and very much safe ones, also has very viable mixup and a very quick slide very much like Mileenas ball roll minus the juggle. but both characters have that Scare factor is he she gonna Roll/Slide should i press/Block/Backdash or Armor? Both make you play that game take it from an old mileena main before she got all the goodies. which was not much and i was one advicating she was top tier long before her buffs. dont forget she had all this before just faster pokes and then a better B12 than now. and a better F3.


For example because i know some might say Sub Zero has no good damage in the corner meterless, and how is his better than Mileena's: well ill explain, i can easily do a 49% Meterless combo with Sub Zero GM that Mileena would have to use F3 at 33 frames startup and Waist a Bar to get that much damage. and BTW sub can do 51%.


Here you go:

The setup for clone added to the combo = 51% even on block.


Now with that said, almost every punisher SZ has Both Low and OH and even High and Mid starters will carry them to corner in one combo. Mileena kindof has to be creative because hers switches sides with roll.

Just so you know I use Kenshi, Cyrax, Sub Zero, Reptile and Jacqui HT frequently.

The difference is i don't downplay, GM is good Midscreen just as any top Tier Character is. and yes he is Top 10 or damn close. His only problem is Characters going through clone and wiffing moves in corner vs Females. but the Combos i state are universal to Females, and when i play with Subzero i only use Universal Combos. its what you should do knowing he has issues with some moves vs females that he can do on males. I take consistancy 100% over a 2% extra.


Now take into account of what i said and then debate.

I am not saying one is better than the other. We know Mileena is higher in the Tier than GM but lets face it not that far.

 

[myri]

i don't agree, i think and believe yes Mileena is very strong but lets remeber Grandmaster is better in the corner without a doubt, and lets not act like Grandmaster has a hard time carrying an opponent there!

Well for starters you did just agree with me about GM's corner game. Also it is very hard for GM to carry Mileena there. Why? Because she has a breaker from throwing sais at full screen all day, so if you do touch her, she breaks. So first of all you have to work your way in slowly to avoid getting hit by sais, all the while she is building meter. You get in, get a touch, she breaks. Back to square one, no stamina for a run, you get to sit and you block sais again, Mileena gets to build bar again. Slide is useless for getting in unless you make a good read because 1. It's unsafe on block, 2. totally whiff punishable, 3. gets stuffed by low sai.

GM does way more meterless damage than Mileena and his are far more practicle. hers is off a F3 33 frame OH that lets face it can be conditioned but acting like that move is easy to land is being unrealistic. yes can be done, but it is very reactible to both professionals and Nobbs alike.

In the corner yes GM does more damage, but midscreen he's struggling to get mid twenties worth of damage. How are Sub's combos more practical? He has to change his combos because of Mileena's female hitbox? Mileena can do mid thirties mid screen meterless and can do that and even more in the corner, maybe not as much as GM but she stills smacks you hard no doubt. We're talking about piercing here, most people playing piercing are not going to be using f3, they are going to be using b12, f12b4 and 21 with a meterburn roll mixup here or there. Fact is Mileena can out footsies Sub all day that she doesn't even need to go for a 50/50, she can just space with b12, be completely safe from counter pokes and then once she does catch Sub with a b12, full combo for 35% midscreen and back to the same situation. f3 is RARELY used by piercing players, maybe once or twice in the corner at most because it is slow as shit like you say.

=

on the other hand Grandmaster has a very usefull and deadly B2 that is quite hard to punish. has no shortage of moves in midscreen and very much safe ones.

Actually b2 is easy to punish for Mileena, at point blank a simple 21 into roll gives a full combo, at max range a meterless roll is easily buffered and full combo punishes. Clone is out you say? As long as Sub doesn't block then you can just meterburn roll and get a full combo. If he reads that you're going to do that then he gets a punish sure but then the Mileena player can just start doing other options like meterburn sai or even just delay the armour to bait Sub, or even more gross than that, she can just wait for the clone to disappear and then straight back into hitting b12. Sub is not safe most of the time actually, he can be fully punished with roll on all his clone cancels except f4 into clone, 11 into clone and b33 into clone. Of course you aren't going to able to use 11 and b33 effectively for this because they have very short range, so your only effective option in footsies is f4 into clone.

also has very viable mixup and a very quick slide very much like Mileenas ball roll minus the juggle. but both characters have that Scare factor is he she gonna Roll/Slide should i press/Block/Backdash or Armor? Both make you play that game take it from an old mileena main before she got all the goodies. which was not much and i was one advicating she was top tier long before her buffs. dont forget she had all this before just faster pokes and then a better B12 than now. and a better F3.

What mixup? You literally just block low against Sub unless he does b2. I've already covered why slide is ass in the matchup. That's another thing too. Slide and meterburn slide do not give Sub a combo, unless he has the clone out and combos with meterburn slide and even then he doesn't get more than mid twenties off that combo into a clone setup IF it is in the corner. Mileena gets a full combo from her roll or meterburn roll ANYWHERE on the screen for good damage. No good Sub or Mileena player is going to throw out random slides or rolls in the neutral and Mileena especially doesn't have to be afraid because the slide doesn't give a combo in the majority of cases and knocks her away from Sub, where she wants to be. If clone is out she can bait meterburn slide for a full punish. She won't roll because she knows she can be punished. Let's also not forget how many MIDS meterless roll low profiles on wakeup for a, guess what, FULL COMBO PUNISH.

For example because i know some might say Sub Zero has no good damage in the corner meterless, and how is his better than Mileena's: well ill explain, i can easily do a 49% Meterless combo with Sub Zero GM that Mileena would have to use F3 at 33 frames startup and Waist a Bar to get that much damage. and BTW sub can do 51%.

I don't think anyone would say that, GM is renowned for it's corner game and corner damage, that's literally the bread and butter of the variation, the words Grandmaster and corner game are pretty much synonymous at this point. It's getting her there, keeping her there and not getting punished for how unsafe you are. Sub has unsafe 50/50's once he has Mileena in the corner, the only reason it works so well is because of the clone, but she has plenty of ways to deal with it. Let's not also forget that Mileena can react to ice balls with telekick into sai for some damage and then go straight back to zoning or run up and do a mixup or a stagger into throw and then back into zoning.

The difference is i don't downplay, GM is good Midscreen just as any top Tier Character is. and yes he is Top 10 or damn close. His only problem is Characters going through clone and wiffing moves in corner vs Females. but the Combos i state are universal to Females, and when i play with Subzero i only use Universal Combos. its what you should do knowing he has issues with some moves vs females that he can do on males. I take consistancy 100% over a 2% extra.

This is just straight up wrong, Sub is unsafe on his 50/50's, his slide, his clone cancels most of the time too, and his midscreen damage is ass. Yeah he has insane corner carry, but Mileena has a breaker and like I've said even if she is in the corner, she has plenty of options. Sub has to make all the right reads here after the initial 50/50 with clone out. If you wanna do universal combos and give up 2% that's cool, no real issues with that.

I am not saying one is better than the other. We know Mileena is higher in the Tier than GM but lets face it not that far.

He is most certainly not a bad character, but in this matchup he gets his ass handed to him, there is no denying it. Only way Sub is getting an easy game in this matchup is if Mileena wants to run up and commit into roll without hit confirming and giving Sub full combo punishes all day, which won't happen if the Mileena player is any good.

If GM gets her in the corner, then yeah he's in pretty good shape, but he still has to make the right reads and if he doesn't Mileena is out and then the game is pretty much hers until you get a breaker out of her and put her back in the corner, which is no small feat.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Well for starters you did just agree with me about GM's corner game. Also it is very hard for GM to carry Mileena there. Why? Because she has a breaker from throwing sais at full screen all day, so if you do touch her, she breaks. So first off all you have to work your way in slowly to avoid getting hit by sais, all the while she is building meter. You get in, get a touch, she breaks. Back to square one, no stamina for a run, you get to sit and you block sais again, Mileena gets to build bar again. Slide is useless for getting in unless you make a good read because 1. It's unsafe on block, 2. totally whiff punishable, 3. gets stuffed by low sai.



In the corner yes GM does more damage, but midscreen he's struggling to get mid twenties worth of damage. How are Sub's combos more practical? He has to change his combos because of Mileena's female hitbox? Mileena can do mid thirties mid screen meterless and can do that and even more in the corner, maybe not as much as GM but she stills smacks you hard no doubt. We're talking about piercing here, most people playing piercing are not going to be using f3, they are going to be using b12, f12b4 and 21 with a meterburn roll mixup here or there. Fact is Mileena can out footsies Sub all day that she doesn't even need to go for a 50/50, she can just space with b12, be completely safe from counter pokes and then once she does catch Sub with a b12, full combo for mid 35% midscreen and back to the same situation. f3 is RARELY used by piercing players, maybe once or twice in the corner at most because it is slow as shit like you say.



Actually b2 is easy to punish for Mileena, at point blank a simple 21 into roll gives a full combo, at max range a meterless roll is easily buffered and full combo punishes. Clone is out you say? As long as Sub doesn't block then you can just meterburn roll and get a full combo. If he reads that you're going to do that then he gets a punish sure but then the Mileena player can just start doing other options like meterburn sai or even just delay the armour to bait Sub, or even more gross than that, she can just wait for the clone to disappear and then straight back into hitting b12. Sub is not safe most of the time actually, he can be fully punished with roll on all his clone cancels except f4 into clone, 11 into clone and b33 into clone. Of course you aren't going to able to use 11 and b33 effectively for this because they have very short range, so your only effective option in footsies is f4 into clone.



What mixup? You literally just block low against Sub unless he does b2. I've already covered why slide is ass in the matchup. That's another thing too. Slide and meterburn slide do not give Sub a combo, unless he has the clone out and combos with meterburn slide and even then he doesn't get more than mid twenties off that combo into a clone setup IF it is in the corner. Mileena gets a full combo from her roll or meterburn roll ANYWHERE on the screen for good damage. No good Sub or Mileena player is going to throw out random slides or rolls in the neutral and Mileena especially doesn't have to be afraid because the slide doesn't give a combo in the majority of cases and knocks her away from Sub, where she wants to be. If clone is out she can bait meterburn slide for a full punish. She won't roll because she knows she can be punished. Let's also not forget how many MIDS meterless roll low profiles on wakeup for a, guess what, FULL COMBO PUNISH.



I don't think anyone would say that, GM is renowned for it's corner game and corner damage, that's literally the bread and butter of the variation, the words Grandmaster and corner game are pretty much synonymous at this point. It's getting her there, keeping her there and not getting punished for how unsafe you are. Sub has unsafe 50/50's once he has Mileena in the corner, the only reason it works so well is because of the clone, but she has plenty of ways to deal with it. Let's not also forget that Mileena can react for ice balls with telekick into sai for some damage and then go straight back to zoning or run up and do a mixup or a stagger into throw and then back into zoning.



This is just straight up wrong, Sub is unsafe on his 50/50's, his slide, his clone cancels most of the time too, and his midscreen damage is ass. Yeah he has insane corner carry, but Mileena has a breaker and like I've said even if she is in the corner, she has plenty of options. Sub has to make all the right reads here after the initial 50/50 with clone out. If you wanna do universal and give up 2% that's cool, no real issues with that.



He is most certainly not a bad character, but in this matchup he gets his ass handed to him, there is no denying it. Only way Sub is getting an easy game in this matchup is if Mileena wants to run up and commit into roll without hit confirming and giving Sub full combo punishes all day, which won't happen if the Mileena player is any good.

If GM gets her in the corner, then yeah he's in pretty good shape, but he still has to make the right reads and if he doesn't Mileena is out and then the game is pretty much hers until you get a breaker out of her and put her back in the corner, which is no small feat.

you make valid points i guess all it comes down to is who people believe to be the top and who people believe to be the bottom. in my reasoning, Mileena is the same as sub. think about her mixup, is a mileena gonna 21U4 all day, no so she is gonna be just as punishable as sub B2. her EX roll is just as punishable if not more punishable, so her options is EX roll and F3 which you get my point. so where is she winning midscreen at again? he B12 yes its plus and yes its hard to punish. but sub has a low profiling move and a decent backdash. all its really comes down to is the player and there reading acapabilities. i think its not hugely in favor of either in this matchup. he uses clone to cover his weaknesses. and she uses endless B12 and Sai attacks to cover hers. but at the end of the day i think ist not as bad as other put on. but when it comes to tier placement Mileena takes the cake she is up there with the best and subby is a bit behind.

 

[myri]

you make valid points i guess all it comes down to is who people believe to be the top and who people believe to be the bottom. in my reasoning, Mileena is the same as sub. think about her mixup, is a mileena gonna 21U4 all day, no so she is gonna be just as punishable as sub B2. her EX roll is just as punishable if not more punishable, so her options is EX roll and F3 which you get my point. so where is she winning midscreen at again? he B12 yes its plus and yes its hard to punish. but sub has a low profiling move and a decent backdash. all its really comes down to is the player and there reading acapabilities. i think its not hugely in favor of either in this matchup. he uses clone to cover his weaknesses. and she uses endless B12 and Sai attacks to cover hers. but at the end of the day i think ist not as bad as other put on. but when it comes to tier placement Mileena takes the cake she is up there with the best and subby is a bit behind.

But no one is going to use f3 midscreen, they have b12 which is all they need to play footsies with Sub. If Sub does do slide after a b12 to low profile another b12 then the Mileena player can just bait it after doing a b12 for a full punish, the risk/reward is not in Sub's favour at all there. Mileena has no weaknesses, she literally has every single tool you need to succeed in MKX. Sure there are other characters that do individual things better, like damage, anti-airs and whatever else but no one character has all these things. That's why piercing is number one, she has EVERYTHING. Sure Sub has a good backdash, but that just moves him away from Mileena, which is what she wants.

A smart Mileena player won't commit to unsafe strings and rolls all day when they have tools like b12 or f12b4, there's no reason to. There is simply no way this matchup is even, we've all seen a top level Sub player, that being Tom Brady or Madzin, play against a top level Mileena player, that being f0xy and seen how they struggle against this character. How is clone covering Sub's weaknesses except in the corner? Clone cancels are unsafe and full punishable, they don't do anything for him midscreen or fullscreen since Mileena can just throw sais to break it and the clone toss is slow as shit. This isn't about whether Sub is a good or bad character it's about the matchup between these two characters and if GM doesn't have Mileena in the corner then it's not going to go well for him.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Well for starters you did just agree with me about GM's corner game. Also it is very hard for GM to carry Mileena there. Why? Because she has a breaker from throwing sais at full screen all day, so if you do touch her, she breaks. So first of all you have to work your way in slowly to avoid getting hit by sais, all the while she is building meter. You get in, get a touch, she breaks. Back to square one, no stamina for a run, you get to sit and you block sais again, Mileena gets to build bar again. Slide is useless for getting in unless you make a good read because 1. It's unsafe on block, 2. totally whiff punishable, 3. gets stuffed by low sai.



In the corner yes GM does more damage, but midscreen he's struggling to get mid twenties worth of damage. How are Sub's combos more practical? He has to change his combos because of Mileena's female hitbox? Mileena can do mid thirties mid screen meterless and can do that and even more in the corner, maybe not as much as GM but she stills smacks you hard no doubt. We're talking about piercing here, most people playing piercing are not going to be using f3, they are going to be using b12, f12b4 and 21 with a meterburn roll mixup here or there. Fact is Mileena can out footsies Sub all day that she doesn't even need to go for a 50/50, she can just space with b12, be completely safe from counter pokes and then once she does catch Sub with a b12, full combo for 35% midscreen and back to the same situation. f3 is RARELY used by piercing players, maybe once or twice in the corner at most because it is slow as shit like you say.



Actually b2 is easy to punish for Mileena, at point blank a simple 21 into roll gives a full combo, at max range a meterless roll is easily buffered and full combo punishes. Clone is out you say? As long as Sub doesn't block then you can just meterburn roll and get a full combo. If he reads that you're going to do that then he gets a punish sure but then the Mileena player can just start doing other options like meterburn sai or even just delay the armour to bait Sub, or even more gross than that, she can just wait for the clone to disappear and then straight back into hitting b12. Sub is not safe most of the time actually, he can be fully punished with roll on all his clone cancels except f4 into clone, 11 into clone and b33 into clone. Of course you aren't going to able to use 11 and b33 effectively for this because they have very short range, so your only effective option in footsies is f4 into clone.



What mixup? You literally just block low against Sub unless he does b2. I've already covered why slide is ass in the matchup. That's another thing too. Slide and meterburn slide do not give Sub a combo, unless he has the clone out and combos with meterburn slide and even then he doesn't get more than mid twenties off that combo into a clone setup IF it is in the corner. Mileena gets a full combo from her roll or meterburn roll ANYWHERE on the screen for good damage. No good Sub or Mileena player is going to throw out random slides or rolls in the neutral and Mileena especially doesn't have to be afraid because the slide doesn't give a combo in the majority of cases and knocks her away from Sub, where she wants to be. If clone is out she can bait meterburn slide for a full punish. She won't roll because she knows she can be punished. Let's also not forget how many MIDS meterless roll low profiles on wakeup for a, guess what, FULL COMBO PUNISH.



I don't think anyone would say that, GM is renowned for it's corner game and corner damage, that's literally the bread and butter of the variation, the words Grandmaster and corner game are pretty much synonymous at this point. It's getting her there, keeping her there and not getting punished for how unsafe you are. Sub has unsafe 50/50's once he has Mileena in the corner, the only reason it works so well is because of the clone, but she has plenty of ways to deal with it. Let's not also forget that Mileena can react to ice balls with telekick into sai for some damage and then go straight back to zoning or run up and do a mixup or a stagger into throw and then back into zoning.



This is just straight up wrong, Sub is unsafe on his 50/50's, his slide, his clone cancels most of the time too, and his midscreen damage is ass. Yeah he has insane corner carry, but Mileena has a breaker and like I've said even if she is in the corner, she has plenty of options. Sub has to make all the right reads here after the initial 50/50 with clone out. If you wanna do universal combos and give up 2% that's cool, no real issues with that.



He is most certainly not a bad character, but in this matchup he gets his ass handed to him, there is no denying it. Only way Sub is getting an easy game in this matchup is if Mileena wants to run up and commit into roll without hit confirming and giving Sub full combo punishes all day, which won't happen if the Mileena player is any good.

If GM gets her in the corner, then yeah he's in pretty good shape, but he still has to make the right reads and if he doesn't Mileena is out and then the game is pretty much hers until you get a breaker out of her and put her back in the corner, which is no small feat.

look i have no clue what we are arguing about, just here me out, im not saying your points are not valid im just saying i don't feel Mileena Mops up GM, and its definitely not 7-3 matchup thats rediculas, thats what others said not you. to be clear. i don't feel GM has a hard time getting mileena to the corner, and i never let mileena start it at game start because i know how annoying they can be. when you start it can go one of two ways: mileena gets upperhand and starts her bs or GM gets upperhand and starts his clone bs and contant mixups and armor breaks.

but one thing we should both agree on is there is no 70% to win here at all either way. i feel they are closer to 5-5 or maybe one gravitates to 6-4 but honestly i feel like there is a much more inbetween option like about 55% in mileenas favor.

but no way does she take the cake with just sais, the game starts close enough for both to come out ahead, and then it all really comes down to who is useing which and how much they each know of eachothers tendencies. and this play a huge factor in EVO and the big ones. we know this to be true. many of them know the matchup in and out, and definitely the main way most of the players use them.


so i will agree to disagree on it and i very much respect your opinion. i really do: and to note: that most of your post are both intelligent and with merit. just liek your ones about Mileena, she is a huge threat and what you spek about to me is a very real situation and this is a problem for him. I just find it to be Situational on what happends at start and who is behind each character and how they choose to play and read.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

But no one is going to use f3 midscreen, they have b12 which is all they need to play footsies with Sub. If Sub does do slide after a b12 to low profile another b12 then the Mileena player can just bait it after doing a b12 for a full punish, the risk/reward is not in Sub's favour at all there. Mileena has no weaknesses, she literally has every single tool you need to succeed in MKX. Sure there are other characters that do individual things better, like damage, anti-airs and whatever else but no one character has all these things. That's why piercing is number one, she has EVERYTHING. Sure Sub has a good backdash, but that just moves him away from Mileena, which is what she wants.

A smart Mileena player won't commit to unsafe strings and rolls all day when they have tools like b12 or f12b4, there's no reason to. There is simply no way this matchup is even, we've all seen a top level Sub player, that being Tom Brady or Madzin, play against a top level Mileena player, that being f0xy and seen how they struggle against this character. How is clone covering Sub's weaknesses except in the corner? Clone cancels are unsafe and full punishable, they don't do anything for him midscreen or fullscreen since Mileena can just throw sais to break it and the clone toss is slow as shit. This isn't about whether Sub is a good or bad character it's about the matchup between these two characters and if GM doesn't have Mileena in the corner then it's not going to go well for him.

i think i may have made myself missleading there. when i was talking about F3 a while back it was in the corner and i was talking about how she gets easy 51-58% off it with one bar. and how GM gets close to that for no meter.

and I have on occasion got it in some high level matches. but it was more of one of those things that i conditioned my opponet threw several matches to block low. and made opponent believe id never use that move. made themfell this guy never does anything negative or tried to, cuz none of us are perfect. and well i got it on them a few times. but like i said about 60% of the time i tried it i still got blown up for it by a simple Standing 1, nothing hard just mashe 123 or 4 and you can useually stop her F3. but what i was getting at he can get that damage a bit easier. and yes she doe build meter quick. but its tricky it can go several ways, matches arew tricky and matters who uses them like i said. she can spam a few high Sais and GM might deside on her recovery time to Launch EX freeze and that will eat it up[ and he wins that trade with gap close. all her efforts down the drain or she copuld read that and DD3. who knows but we can't set down in stone what will happen in any match. S o we really don't know.


But i feel GM has the tools to get to her just as i feel she has the tools to keep him out. its a very tricky matchup and i know why people debate on this one.


@myri i would like you to know that it has been nice debating with you, its been fun and intelligent. i would say my final verdict because of the thing you told me is: Mileena vs GM is a 55% in mileenas favor before i would have thought 5-5 so consider this a victory for you.

But those acting like this is a unwinable match in GM's hands needs to check them selfs. cuz thqats not how it really is. I main Sub is is my 4th pick. and i used Mileena long before other learned of the B12 game and the new pokes and i did just as good if not better back then. She has so many good tools. back then Ethreal was deemed garbage and i was like: really she has Cancel pressur in a different form. like how is this variation bad. just like Saltface agreed. Ethreal is good if not better, but everyone seems to act like Piercing is the only one, and thats not true it used to be Ravenous, buit then soem realize, OMG the variations are good agianst different matchups. SMH right. Ethreal has something none of them have, Escape from everything. Piercing has Low sai and B12 as well as B21-2+4 for enders. and a strange F1 extension. but really whats differnt about them other than that. they are all very good. id say Ravenous needs better hops that connect better other than that its very top tier reguardless what others state. so is Ethreal.

and GM is great, a very fun variation that is uber tournament viable. not like CSZ for example, not gonna get to the top without other pockets.

 

[hkriderz]

@MadeOfMetal have you played against a high level mileena player as sub zero? If you haven't your opinion means squat. Because it is the stupidest post on this thread right now. You say you play sub zero. Go play a competent mileena and come back and post your results.

Your opinion on the matchup is very misinformed and clearly wrong. Watch Brady or Madzin against Foxy. Go play foxy yourself or a competent mileena. I recommend @Damaja325

Read my posts above if you need clarification on why mileena demolishes grandmaster. Play it yourself and show us what to do. Otherwise you might as well stop posting about this matchup since your opinion holds less weight here than a three year olds does.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

@MadeOfMetal have you played against a high level mileena player as sub zero? If you haven't your opinion means squat. Because it is the stupidest post on this thread right now. You say you play sub zero. Go play a competent mileena and come back and post your results.

Your opinion on the matchup is very misinformed and clearly wrong. Watch Brady or Madzin against Foxy. Go play foxy yourself or a competent mileena. I recommend @Damaja325

Read my posts above if you need clarification on why mileena demolishes grandmaster. Play it yourself and show us what to do. Otherwise you might as well stop posting about this matchup since your opinion holds less weight here than a three year olds does.

Very rude and false. 1. you have actually angered me, and i will explaine why i will not tollerate such Entitlement from any member on TYM.

Personally nothing agaist you ,but, Never tell someone that just becaus ethey have not been in an EVO that they may not be capable of play at that level, you have Zero foundation to make this claim and its insulting to all that came from smaller tournaments and smaller cities to later show up in the Top 8's of EVO and ESL and tournament of that caliber. (players who come to mind are: Frosty Bunie which come from some small place in Northern Missouri. and many top Players may have been online warriors before they hit the scene)

just saying Background does not matter, and what tournament they attend does not either. as well as Online VS Offline, some very few online players have what it takes to play with the big boys.

2. I do not need to prove myself to you or anyone on this site before posting my opinion. and your argument is not only archaic but down right absurd.

You are making this simple friendly debate into a Dick mesuring contest, i have never clamied to be better than the top, and am not now. but i don't consider myself to be shitty either, and am quite capable of making a post on matchup between Mileena and Sub Zero, just because you believe otherwise gives you no Right to tell me what you think my skill level is or is not. and if myh opinion matters.

Do you really suggest that i have not played good mileenas with sub zero and make a claim that he is capable of winning this matchup. i did not say GM win's 6-4 or anything i said i think its a 5.5 in Mileenas favor.

some even go as far as saying Mileena wins 70% against him and that is just not true.

Basically you came out of nowhere and isulted me. and im telling you, unless you can provide otherwise why GM loses so bad then don't make wierd rules and claims that all must obide by. I can Post what i want when i want. You have Zero authority to tell me or anyone else otherwise.


so like i nicely put it to the other member on here, i just gracefully dissagreed with him/her about a matchup. and thats all it was, no need to came at me insulting me because you have some wierd strong belif in this matchup out come.

all i stated is she said mostly sais where the determining factort among other tools that mad him incapable of getting her to corner easily, and i simply stated that they startout close up, and he has the tools to get in and get her to the corner in one Guess. and its more so determined by who is useing Each character and not so much more about the tools. and how much Knowledge thewy have of eachothers Gameplay tendancies.



Just to clear up:

Mileena is Stier

Mileena is a very hard matchup.

Mileena has tools to lockdown Sub Zero.

Mileena Build Meter very fast.

Mileena can deal with almost every situation.

But i feel he has enough to make it a thing agaist her alone.

and that she does not have anything to really force him to do what she wants. if he knows the matchup in and out, it may feel that way some times but that could be that the Mileena p[layer knows your tendancies.

 

[hkriderz]

Very rude and false. 1. you have actually angered me, and i will explaine why i will not tollerate such Entitlement from any member on TYM.

Personally nothing agaist you ,but, Never tell someone that just becaus ethey have not been in an EVO that they may not be capable of play at that level, you have Zero foundation to make this claim and its insulting to all that came from smaller tournaments and smaller cities to later show up in the Top 8's of EVO and ESL and tournament of that caliber. (players who come to mind are: Frosty Bunie which come from some small place in Northern Missouri. and many top Players may have been online warriors before they hit the scene)

just saying Background does not matter, and what tournament they attend does not either. as well as Online VS Offline, some very few online players have what it takes to play with the big boys.

2. I do not need to prove myself to you or anyone on this site before posting my opinion. and your argument is not only archaic but down right absurd.

You are making this simple friendly debate into a Dick mesuring contest, i have never clamied to be better than the top, and am not now. but i don't consider myself to be shitty either, and am quite capable of making a post on matchup between Mileena and Sub Zero, just because you believe otherwise gives you no Right to tell me what you think my skill level is or is not. and if myh opinion matters.

Do you really suggest that i have not played good mileenas with sub zero and make a claim that he is capable of winning this matchup. i did not say GM win's 6-4 or anything i said i think its a 5.5 in Mileenas favor.

some even go as far as saying Mileena wins 70% against him and that is just not true.

Basically you came out of nowhere and isulted me. and im telling you, unless you can provide otherwise why GM loses so bad then don't make wierd rules and claims that all must obide by. I can Post what i want when i want. You have Zero authority to tell me or anyone else otherwise.


so like i nicely put it to the other member on here, i just gracefully dissagreed with him/her about a matchup. and thats all it was, no need to came at me insulting me because you have some wierd strong belif in this matchup out come.

all i stated is she said mostly sais where the determining factort among other tools that mad him incapable of getting her to corner easily, and i simply stated that they startout close up, and he has the tools to get in and get her to the corner in one Guess. and its more so determined by who is useing Each character and not so much more about the tools. and how much Knowledge thewy have of eachothers Gameplay tendancies.



Just to clear up:

Mileena is Stier

Mileena is a very hard matchup.

Mileena has tools to lockdown Sub Zero.

Mileena Build Meter very fast.

Mileena can deal with almost every situation.

But i feel he has enough to make it a thing agaist her alone.

and that she does not have anything to really force him to do what she wants. if he knows the matchup in and out, it may feel that way some times but that could be that the Mileena p[layer knows your tendancies.

First of all who the hell mentioned Evo or ESL? I didn't even say that. I don't need you to get top 8 at majors or beat sonicfox to have a worthy opinion.

Second of all I only called you out because you came under my thread and posted a downright wrong summary of the matchup. And myri explained it well why 99% of the community thinks it's 6-4 or slight 7-3. I just couldn't let someone have a misguided opinion.

And yes you haven't played a high level mileena if you think she only slightly wins I'm sorry. I told you to go ahead and prove it, but I'm sure you won't because you don't want to be exposed.

I, along with many other sub zero MAINS have run the matchup countless times against good Piercings and all agree it's a 7-3. And you with your fourth main sub zero say it's a 5.5. So you would see why your opinion is very irrelevant unless you have proof.

I have posted why she beats him countless times, but since you might be too lazy to scroll up, I will one last time.

Low sai- basically constricts sub zeros movement completely. He cannot slide, cannot iceball, he has to crawl and jump his way in. His jump is easily anti aired by roll other than that he is eating massive chip while mileena is building meter.

Telekick- ignores the clone unless sub zero ducks, can be done on reaction to iceball for a punish, unpunishable by sub zero on block because if she cancels into air sai there's basically nothing sub can do.

Regular sai- super fast recovery so basically no trade opportunity, main meter build. If sub in the corner does anything else but f12 knockdown mileena has enough time to wakeup sai and block, getting rid of the clone.

Ex roll can blow up clone cancels if needed. Mixup. F1 breaks all sub armor.

If mileena grabs sub she will have mid screen again, and sub has to respect it because of b12.

Sub cannot poke back out of b12 because it's -1 and subs fastest poke is 9 frames and clearly hers is not.

B2 is punishable for 35 meterless into a restand for pressure.

Summarizing, mileenas space control and meterbuild for breakers coupled with her strong offense and her grabs make it near impossible to corner her. And if you do it takes one right guess for you to be back in square one. And it's hell midscreen.

So easy 6-4 more 7-3. If you have any valid argument I'm willing to listen. Otherwise just stop.

And Btw please fix your horrible grammar and spelling, it's a headache reading your posts

 

[MadeOfMetal]

First of all who the hell mentioned Evo or ESL? I didn't even say that. I don't need you to get top 8 at majors or beat sonicfox to have a worthy opinion.

Second of all I only called you out because you came under my thread and posted a downright wrong summary of the matchup. And myri explained it well why 99% of the community thinks it's 6-4 or slight 7-3. I just couldn't let someone have a misguided opinion.

And yes you haven't played a high level mileena if you think she only slightly wins I'm sorry. I told you to go ahead and prove it, but I'm sure you won't because you don't want to be exposed.

I, along with many other sub zero MAINS have run the matchup countless times against good Piercings and all agree it's a 7-3. And you with your fourth main sub zero say it's a 5.5. So you would see why your opinion is very irrelevant unless you have proof.

I have posted why she beats him countless times, but since you might be too lazy to scroll up, I will one last time.

Low sai- basically constricts sub zeros movement completely. He cannot slide, cannot iceball, he has to crawl and jump his way in. His jump is easily anti aired by roll other than that he is eating massive chip while mileena is building meter.

Telekick- ignores the clone unless sub zero ducks, can be done on reaction to iceball for a punish, unpunishable by sub zero on block because if she cancels into air sai there's basically nothing sub can do.

Regular sai- super fast recovery so basically no trade opportunity, main meter build. If sub in the corner does anything else but f12 knockdown mileena has enough time to wakeup sai and block, getting rid of the clone.

Ex roll can blow up clone cancels if needed. Mixup. F1 breaks all sub armor.

If mileena grabs sub she will have mid screen again, and sub has to respect it because of b12.

Sub cannot poke back out of b12 because it's -1 and subs fastest poke is 9 frames and clearly hers is not.

B2 is punishable for 35 meterless into a restand for pressure.

Summarizing, mileenas space control and meterbuild for breakers coupled with her strong offense and her grabs make it near impossible to corner her. And if you do it takes one right guess for you to be back in square one. And it's hell midscreen.

So easy 6-4 more 7-3. If you have any valid argument I'm willing to listen. Otherwise just stop.

And Btw please fix your horrible grammar and spelling, it's a headache reading your posts

instead of me fightin with you about this lets squash it. you believe your way i believe mine. i don't get why some on TYM feel they have to force others to quit posting because they believe differently than some.

 

[hkriderz]

instead of me fightin with you about this lets squash it. you believe your way i believe mine. i don't get why some on TYM feel they have to force others to quit posting because they believe differently than some.

Fine let this thread die in peace like it was weeks ago before you revived it. You have presented no proof otherwise on the matchup, so for now I believe the argument is over.

 

[Revenant Zero]

@MadeOfMetal I believe @hkriderz and I already talked about why the match up kind of debatable. I mean I'm a casual player too, so much so my opinion doesn't mean anything until I play like Madzin, Tom or Buffalo but it is what it is. It's definitely depending on the position each character is in.

@Damaja325 even stated its 7-3 for Sub in corner (I'm assuming if he makes the right reads and is on point with shatter positioning into mid-air freeze and landing a f12)
I agree on that because Sub can go with B2 (predictable) or go for the 12 (mid low doe)

I agree wholeheartedly now after reading this and another thread, that Mileena is 7-3 mid-screen. She has the tools and the combos to punish Sub if he tried to jump over indescriminately for a jip + b2, can zone with the sais and keep sub in the corner (granted if Sub is left with a meter he can power through normal low sai or dual low sai for a corner positioning, I would recommend this only if she has one meter; if she ex rolls, it's normal block. If she ex
tele kicks; it's open in the air because she may just do standard kick no sai or bait a reaction) either way; Mileena has the meter build to push Sub back and the means to build it again while Sub needs to respect it just to receive meter, be patient and bide for the decisive strike.

I talked to Akromaniac27 in summer jam X and he said the MU isn't crazy out there, it's pretty much even;up until the corner positioning. Granted Akro has his own crazy corner which ends with two rolls that positions Sub back in the corner but hey, if I can just ease my way, corner carry Mileena, make her use her meter and have her trapped with 1 bar or none; it's Sub's game. He just needs to make the right reads. (Theoretically; but I'm just a scrub sub so don't mind me)

 

[TheGabStandard]

@Damaja325 basically summed up the match perfectly. Midscreen makes it a pretty rubbish MU for Sub Zero but if Mileena is cornered it becomes rubbish for her.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Ok once again:
1. Mileena murders him in footsies
2. Mileena can outzone him
3. The new Sai Blast makes putting a Klone midscreen useless
4. She can beat any of his counter pokes after he blocks B12, so he needs to respect a follow up
5. She punishes everything he does
6. Sub-Zero is forced to play very offensively and rush down to keep her from building 2 breakers a round, and his offense and 50/50s are very punishable by Mileena.
7. Sub-Zero has no way of building meter vs Mileena because he can't Klone, can't use ice ball, can't slide. He needs meter to fight her, and he can't build it. She can fight him without meter and builds a dick load.
8. She does way more damage.
This shit is pure Ebola for Sub-Zero. The only matchups that could be worse are Swarm Queen D'Vorah and Demo Sonya.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

If Mileena is cornered, it is the PLAYER getting massively outplayed and you deserve whatever Sub does to you. If Sub gets Mileena in the corner, it has nothing to do with Mileena or the matchup.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Ok once again:
1. Mileena murders him in footsies
2. Mileena can outzone him
3. The new Sai Blast makes putting a Klone midscreen useless
4. She can beat any of his counter pokes after he blocks B12, so he needs to respect a follow up
5. She punishes everything he does
6. Sub-Zero is forced to play very offensively and rush down to keep her from building 2 breakers a round, and his offense and 50/50s are very punishable by Mileena.
7. Sub-Zero has no way of building meter vs Mileena because he can't Klone, can't use ice Klone, can't slide. He needs meter to fight her, and he can't build it. She can fight him without meter and builds a dick load.
8. She does way more damage.
This shit is pure Ebola for Sub-Zero. The only matchups that could be worse are Swarm Queen D'Vorah and Demo Sonya.

Alien?

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Alien?

Alien is bad, but isn't not borderline 2-8 like those. Alien can get wrecked really bad with the close clone because his hurtbox is so low to the ground, so I think it's 4-6 MAYBE 3-7.

 

[MadeOfMetal]

Alien is bad, but isn't not borderline 2-8 like those. Alien can get wrecked really bad with the close clone because his hurtbox is so low to the ground, so I think it's 4-6 MAYBE 3-7.

didnt know that i just knew for GM alot of his strings ignore clone, that what i expereinced. F4/B3/S4/DB3/EX Tail flip/JIK3 or 4 but yeah i gues he could beat it, not evrything on SZ requires his clone, its not like most matchup they couldnt blow him uop forcanceling it anyways, i can see that.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

didnt know that i just knew for GM alot of his strings ignore clone, that what i expereinced. F4/B3/S4/DB3/EX Tail flip/JIK3 or 4 but yeah i gues he could beat it, not evrything on SZ requires his clone, its not like most matchup they couldnt blow him uop forcanceling it anyways, i can see that.

It's obviously cancer for SZ mid screen, but if you hit him and guess right on wakeup, he could potentially be dead. So if you make a really good read midscreen to combo him to corner, and guess right on his 50/50 wakeup if he has meter, then he is yours. But there are too many variables and Alien punishes you midscreen and out footsies you so bad, that it could never be an even matchup.

 

[TheGabStandard]

If Mileena is cornered, it is the PLAYER getting massively outplayed and you deserve whatever Sub does to you.

I think it is a little extreme to call it being massively outplayed. Sometimes you just make the right read to whatever Mileena is going to do and it works in your favour.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I think it is a little extreme to call it being massively outplayed. Sometimes you just make the right read to whatever Mileena is going to do and it works in your favour.

She has the tools to keep him completely locked down.