Question - Sun God How do Kotal's Tick Throws work even

[WiseTree]

Hello all,

Just came back to MKX and I'm really confused by the frame data in this game all of a sudden. I was trying to learn sun god (because he's the coolest) and I can't figure out why certain ticks work.

For example, let's look at b1. It has 19 frames recovery, -2 on block which means it has 17 frames of blockstun. Let's say I cancel all of the recovery (so 19, and not even the 22 listed on the data, which I'm guessing means you can cancel while still in active frames?) to do a command grab with a startup of 14 frames and 2 active frames, which amounts to 16 frames in total before the recovery frames. So if they're in blockstun for 17 frames, and I go into recovery after 16 frames, why does the command grab still connect? Shouldn't it whiff?

Sorry if this is dumb, I'm just too confused right now.

 

[Youphemism]

Don't think the blockstun is calculated by recovery + block advantage, if that were the case then the frame data for Alien's BF1 wouldn't make sense as it would have -1 frame of blockstun.

 

[WiseTree]

It could be that the block advantage there is calculated given the opponent is hit on the first active frame or something?

 

[Youphemism]

It could be that the block advantage there is calculated given the opponent is hit on the first active frame or something?

Pretty sure the frame data for any fighting game is calculated that way lol

 

[WiseTree]

I'm confused about what you're trying to say in reference to my question. Whether the 17 frames are true "blockstun" or not (which is your point, I think?), according to frame data the opponent should be still in blockstun for 17 frames after the active frames, whereas the grab would go into recovery 16 frames after the active frames, given all of the recovery frames are cancelled.

 

[Youphemism]

I'm confused about what you're trying to say in reference to my question. Whether the 17 frames are true "blockstun" or not (which is your point, I think?), according to frame data the opponent should be still in blockstun for 17 frames after the active frames, whereas the grab would go into recovery 16 frames after the active frames, given all of the recovery frames are cancelled.

But your calculation is wrong (or the frame data is), recovery frames + block advantage don't necessarily give you the blockstun of a move. Like I said with my Alien example his BF1 has 16 recovery frames and is -17 on block so by your calculation for blockstun the move has -1 frame of blockstun which obviously isn't true.

Edit: Yeah your calculation is slightly off. You also need to take into consideration the active frames when calculating blockstun as the move has to finish its active frames before going into recovery. Blockstun = ACTIVE FRAMES + recovery + block advantage

 

[WiseTree]

Alright, so I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm still not getting how it's explaining the problem I'm having. So for convenience I made a diagram (Wooo, diagrams) which shows how I interpret the frame data.

Pink is what I understood of you saying about the blockstun. So am I understanding something wrong? Clearly the grab's active frames are within the blockstun of the attack in this, but I must be understanding something wrong since the grab definitely connects when cancelled from b1. Halp?

 

[Wigy]

Don't think the blockstun is calculated by recovery + block advantage, if that were the case then the frame data for Alien's BF1 wouldn't make sense as it would have -1 frame of blockstun.

If thats that stupid pounce thing that seems correct

 

[TyCarter35]

I believe that is what the cancel advantage on the moves are for. It's why blockstrings exist iirc and with tick throws there's enough cancel advantage on block that it allows Kotal to tick grab. This is just the idea I think that might help explain I'm still uncertain myself

 

[Hor_PeT]

in case of cancel (and thick command grab is a cancel into command grab) cancel advantage matters not the recovery. Recovery matters when you whiff the move.
Howevery in case of thick command grab it is easier to try anything you want in the practice room instead of trying it in an excel.
And fortunately there are many guides where you can see all the possible practical thick grabs (and grabs on hit). And MB command grab is also a thing on hit.

 

[STRYKIE]

Just for the record the 'cancel' listed in the in-game frame data refers to the amount of frames over the duration you have to actually special cancel that move, not the actual cancel advantage. Otherwise Scorpion's F4 FBRC in Hellfire would be +20 something when in reality it's just barely safe (-5) lol.

 

[Youphemism]

Alright, so I think I understand what you're saying, but I'm still not getting how it's explaining the problem I'm having. So for convenience I made a diagram (Wooo, diagrams) which shows how I interpret the frame data.

Pink is what I understood of you saying about the blockstun. So am I understanding something wrong? Clearly the grab's active frames are within the blockstun of the attack in this, but I must be understanding something wrong since the grab definitely connects when cancelled from b1. Halp?

Why do you have the cancel advantage and grab startup beginning on the 3rd active frame?

 

[WiseTree]

Why do you have the cancel advantage and grab startup beginning on the 3rd active frame?

Cancel advantage is listed as 22 frames, so I'm counting it down off the end of the move animation, and then the grab begins on the first frame allowed by the cancel advantage.

in case of cancel (and thick command grab is a cancel into command grab) cancel advantage matters not the recovery. Recovery matters when you whiff the move.
Howevery in case of thick command grab it is easier to try anything you want in the practice room instead of trying it in an excel.
And fortunately there are many guides where you can see all the possible practical thick grabs (and grabs on hit). And MB command grab is also a thing on hit.

I am figuring it out in practice of course, but I wanna understand why the frame data is inconsistent with my experience in practice more so than figure out the ticks in itself.

Just for the record the 'cancel' listed in the in-game frame data refers to the amount of frames over the duration you have to actually special cancel that move, not the actual cancel advantage. Otherwise Scorpion's F4 FBRC in Hellfire would be +20 something when in reality it's just barely safe (-5) lol.

You mean its the time when you can buffer the move? Is there any way to find the actual cancel advantage in that case?

 

[gongfuren]

Kotal Kahn's air grab has 32 total frames.

Ferra/Torr's d2 has 19f startup (hits on frame 20).

Ferra/Torr's b3 has 20f startup (hits on frame 21).

If Kotal does b1 xx air throw, Ferra/Torr can punish on block with d2, but not with b3. Therefore, Kotal b1 xx air throw is -20f on block.

Air throw has 32 total frames, and 32 minus 20 equals 12, so on b1 xx special move, the blockstun from the b1 wears off right on frame 12 of the special move. Therefore, according to your diagram, on cancel, the sun choke would begin on the 6th recovery frame of b1.

Since the first active frame of sun choke is the 15th frame from the start, this means that there is a two frame gap between the end of blockstun and the first active frame of sun choke.

In conclusion:
1) sun choke begins on b1 recovery frame 6
2) blockstun ends on sun choke frame 12
3) sun choke still in startup on frames 13 and 14
4) sun choke becomes active on frame 15

 

[STRYKIE]

You mean its the time when you can buffer the move? Is there any way to find the actual cancel advantage in that case?

Effectively yeah. I guess the only way you would find out the exact cancel advantage on a normal is if you set the AI to backdash, cancel the normal into something that doesn't jail, capture footage of that at 60FPS and then count a frame at a time until their stamina gauge goes down.

Either way Kotal's B1 definitely doesn't have 14 frames of cancel advantage and the fastest follow-up he can do that is available and jails is B12/B14 (both 10f startup), so it makes sense that B1 naturally ticks into the command grab.

 

[Scott The Scot]

This may be of help to you all in here.
https://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-read-understand-and-calculate-frame-data-in-mkx.49708/

 

[Youphemism]

This may be of help to you all in here.
https://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-read-understand-and-calculate-frame-data-in-mkx.49708/

But if we look at Kotal's standing 1 tick throw we can see that that doesn't work/is wrong. It says

Block cancel advantage = startup + active + recovery - cancel + block advantage

in the case of Kotal's standing 1 that gives us

10 + 2 + 11 - 21 + 2 = 4

If it's +4 on block cancel then how come it jails into the followup 13 frame standing 1 in 114? How come you can't tick with it any more if you hit them with the second active frame of the standing 1? It has to be +13 on block cancel so something is wrong, either the calculation or the frame data.

 

[WiseTree]

It's kinda looking like the frame data is wonky. It must be as @STRYKIE said - the cancel advantage isn't actually advantage, but rather buffer space (although even that definition is kinda weird). Or if not that, then still definitely not cancel advantage.

I'm guessing the only way to find real cancel advantages is to test them ourselves in that case (which is great because my execution is around -3/10 lol).

Nonetheless, thanks guys.

 

[Youphemism]

No problem man. I believe they use algorithms to provide the frame data which can cause some messy stuff like -261 recovery frames on some moves lol

 

[Hor_PeT]

Homework: calculate why you cant jump out from S1xxCommand grab lol.

 

[gongfuren]

Homework: calculate why you cant jump out from S1xxCommand grab lol.

s1 hits on frame 11 and cancels into a special move on frame 12

s1 blockstun on opponent is 15 frames

startup of sun choke is 14 frames and hits on its 15th frame

Therefore, the sun choke hits exactly on the first frame after s1 blockstun. Jumps don't become throw-invulnerable until frame 2, so you won't be able to jump due to no gap between blockstun end and sun choke active frames. However, backdashes are throw-invulnerable on the first active frame, so backdashing will avoid it.

 

[EntropicByDesign]

My head hurts and this post made me sad because numbers.

 

[gongfuren]

My head hurts and this post made me sad because numbers.

Only important takeaways you need from this thread so far:

1) b1 xx sun choke is a 2f gap tick grab
2) s1 xx sun choke is a 0f gap tick grab
3) 0f gap tick grabs cannot be avoided by jumping
4) all tick grabs can be avoided by reversal armor or reversal backdash

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Only important takeaways you need from this thread so far:

1) b1 xx sun choke is a 2f gap tick grab
2) s1 xx sun choke is a 0f gap tick grab
3) 0f gap tick grabs cannot be avoided by jumping
4) all tick grabs can be avoided by reversal armor or reversal backdash

So you're saying there is more to this than mashing all the button and screaming FOOTSIES at my monitor?

 

[Youphemism]

Only important takeaways you need from this thread so far:

1) b1 xx sun choke is a 2f gap tick grab
2) s1 xx sun choke is a 0f gap tick grab
3) 0f gap tick grabs cannot be avoided by jumping
4) all tick grabs can be avoided by reversal armor or reversal backdash

Well the first one at least is incorrect, there's no such thing as a 0 frame gap. 1~sun choke has a 1 frame gap because you can backdash it since backdashes have at least 1 invincibility frame at the start of the backdash. Also how did you come to the conclusion B1~DB2 is a 2 (or rather it should be 3) frame gap?