How are the villains "weak"?

[Dankster Morgan]

If you can use X beat Y, but Y didn't beat Z therefore A can't beat X... I don't see why using a character trait such as described above as a means of justifying what happened is that much different, if that's what is required to make a fantasy story just that little bit more believable.

Yes, it's not there in black and white, but storytelling doesn't always have to be that blatant.

I agree with the sentiment from that statement, I don’t think it’s enough to justify Kitana winning that fight, but I see why you guys think it does. I think my tone gets lost in text, im not being facetious. I genuinely understand and think it’s valid why you guys think that, I just don’t agree.

 

[SaltShaker]

People are complaining about Cassie in this very thread.

I don't speak for "people". I'm perfectly fine with MKX Cassie because she was built to be a beast from day 1. Kitana was not before, during, or after.

 

[Rodney Quillz]

I was kind of thinking of the cutscene where Ermac ragdolls him into the subway. Ermac beats Cage and Jax in the story mode before that and loses to Liu and Sub, which I can buy. Stryker doesn't even have the technology that Jax or Sonya has to give them an edge, he's just a dude ya know

Well tbf again he beat a Johnny Cage who was arrogant and still wasn’t taking everything serious, Jax wasn’t really a fight either he just kinda grabbed Ermac and got his arms ripped off immediately, almost by surprise.

I’ve always had a theory about Ermacs jobbing and inconsistent power levels, a million souls all in one warrior controlled by Shao Kahn and yet…I don’t really think so.

I doubt the souls of all of those warriors want to serve Kahn or do his bidding, the inner conflict causes him to half ass his battles or job out.

He ripped jax arms off when he could have ripped his head off instead.

He broke Johnnys leg, but didn’t kill him.

He threw Stryker down that subway with ease but could have easily turned him upside down and broke his neck. He also could have possibly under estimated Stryker.

I think the more likely explanation other than NRS writing being shit and inconsistent is that the good warriors trapped in Ermacs body are making him show restraint or atleast as much restraint that they can muster out of him.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Well tbf again he beat a Johnny Cage who was arrogant and still wasn’t taking everything serious, Jax wasn’t really a fight either he just kinda grabbed Ermac and got his arms ripped off immediately, almost by surprise.

I’ve always had a theory about Ermacs jobbing and inconsistent power levels, a million souls all in one warrior controlled by Shao Kahn and yet…I don’t really think so.

I doubt the souls of all of those warriors want to serve Kahn or do his bidding, the inner conflict causes him to half ass his battles or job out.

He ripped jax arms off when he could have ripped his head off instead.

He broke Johnnys leg, but didn’t kill him.

He threw Stryker down that subway with ease but could have easily turned him upside down and broke his neck. He also could have possibly under estimated Stryker.

I think the more likely explanation other than NRS writing being shit and inconsistent is that the good warriors trapped in Ermacs body are making him show restraint or atleast as much restraint that they can muster out of him.

As far as head cannons go, this is a good one. This makes me really hope Ermac comes back in MK1, I’d love to see what they’d do with him given complete freedom and a fresh start

 

[Cicada 5]

I don't speak for "people". I'm perfectly fine with MKX Cassie because she was built to be a beast from day 1. Kitana was not before, during, or after.

Cassie lost every fight she was in up until her own chapter. Kitana is established as an assassin and fighter with over a millennium of experience from her first appearance.

 

[Eddy Wang]

The guy who lost his arm to Vader in their first fight, only won their rematch by tapping into the Dark Side and would have been killed by a frail, shriveled Palpatine if not for Vader's interference?

Every argument people make for why Liu Kang is this unapproachable fighting god only highlights the impossibility of his feats. If the 10,000 year old warrior princess and assassin who trained under Kahn has no business defeating him, then Bruce Lee with fire powers makes even less sense doing it.

he is not tho, he died in deadly alliance when ambushed by two sorcerers

 

[Eddy Wang]

At that point in the story, Johnny Cage was just a regular guy. The whole green energy as a plot point(not as a game mechanic, mind you), didn't become a thing until MKX. And by then be was going toe to toe with Scorpion and shit. These things have never been consistent.

touché

 

[Eddy Wang]

I think it's a weird take to believe that Earthrealm's defenders can't...you know...defend Earthrealm outside of one guy. But let's ignore that for a sec.

they've lost for 500 years

 

[LiuKangmain]

Johnny Cage was an absolute joke character dying 3 times during midway era. Even in MK9 he loses a lot and is being saved by the plot or pity: Ermac could have killed him, Cyrax could have killed him, Jax beat his ass, Kitana beat his ass, Shao Kahn fireballs his ass, Sindel doesn't kill him for a the plot. Someone in NRS was a huge fan of Cage and made him and his family the main characters of MKX lol. His family "gift" is so bullshit I'd believe if Kitana found her inner Jerrod super duper power to take down Shao motherfucking Kahn 1v1.

 

[LiuKangmain]

At the same time that same person absolutely hates Liu Kang cause there's no way Raiden beats Liu Kang that easily in MK9. ALSO the writers seemed to forget that RAIDEN IS WEAK IN THE NEATHERREALM and he beats Geras AND amplified Liu Kang back to back lol.

 

[Cicada 5]

they've lost for 500 years

By this logic, no human should ever win in Mortal Kombat.

 

[Cicada 5]

he is not tho, he died in deadly alliance when ambushed by two sorcerers

My point exactly.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I think the reason it bugs is because of how Shao Kahn is built up and how she isn’t. I wouldn’t mind if it were like other fantasy stories where she overcomes him by outthinking him. Rude said she won because she was underestimated, if they played that up or outright said it, I’d be okay with it. As it stands now she just beat him in a straight fight, and based on other characters’ reactions, we aren’t even supposed to be surprised. Let’s look at some other fantasy stories. I’m about to spoil some 20+ year old books.


A Song of Ice and Fire book 3

Spoiler

In ASOIAF, Jaime Lannister, the best swordsman alive at the time loses to Brienne. But it’s fine because the book makes sure we know that Jaime had his hands shackled together still and is completely emaciated. Brienne later admits she would have got obliterated by a healthy Jaime. Like these foghts in MK games, Brienne needed to defeat Jaime to advance the plot, but George R.R. Martin isn’t an idiot. The Jaime Brienne gap is a lot smaller than the Kitana Shao Kahn gap, but GRRM still felt the need to justify this outcome, so that we as the reader can believe what’s happening in the story, and be invested without having dumb moments tear us from the story

The Witcher book 4 and 7

Spoiler

In Witcher, Geralt gets his ass kicked by Vilgefortz. How does he go back and defeat Vilgefortz? With assistance from Yennefer and Regis, and using a one off device from Fringilla that would only work on Vilgefortz exactly one time, allowing him to get a killing blow. Geralt is very mid power wise in the Witcher books and loses a lot of fights (like Kitana) but we can get to see him overcome crazy odds using his intellect.

If you read through these examples and think “well yeah duh, MK isn’t meant to be taken seriously.” Well no shit, that’s the whole point, it CAN’T be taken seriously and shit like this is why. Especially when comparing it to well written books.

 

[Cicada 5]

I think the reason it bugs is because of how Shao Kahn is built up and how she isn’t. I wouldn’t mind if it were like other fantasy stories where she overcomes him by outthinking him. Rude said she won because she was underestimated, if they played that up or outright said it, I’d be okay with it. As it stands now she just beat him in a straight fight, and based on other characters’ reactions, we aren’t even supposed to be surprised. Let’s look at some other fantasy stories. I’m about to spoil some 20+ year old books.


A Song of Ice and Fire book 3

Spoiler

In ASOIAF, Jaime Lannister, the best swordsman alive at the time loses to Brienne. But it’s fine because the book makes sure we know that Jaime had his hands shackled together still and is completely emaciated. Brienne later admits she would have got obliterated by a healthy Jaime. Like these foghts in MK games, Brienne needed to defeat Jaime to advance the plot, but George R.R. Martin isn’t an idiot. The Jaime Brienne gap is a lot smaller than the Kitana Shao Kahn gap, but GRRM still felt the need to justify this outcome, so that we as the reader can believe what’s happening in the story, and be invested without having dumb moments tear us from the story

The Witcher book 4 and 7

Spoiler

In Witcher, Geralt gets his ass kicked by Vilgefortz. How does he go back and defeat Vilgefortz? With assistance from Yennefer and Regis, and using a one off device from Fringilla that would only work on Vilgefortz exactly one time, allowing him to get a killing blow. Geralt is very mid power wise in the Witcher books and loses a lot of fights (like Kitana) but we can get to see him overcome crazy.

If you read through these examples and think “well yeah duh, MK isn’t meant to be taken seriously.” Well no shit, that’s the whole point, it CAN’T be taken seriously and shit like this is why. Especially when comparing it to well written books.

Kitana was built up when her first bio established her as a 10,000-year-old assassin who was raised and very likely trained by Kahn himself. Armageddon establishes that the Edenians are descended from the gods for crying out loud. If we're going to complain about Rain getting jobbed despite being a demigod, I cannot see why anyone has an issue with Kitana beating Kahn, a guy who lest we forget, had won a grand total of one fight against Kung Lao in the Midway games.

I ask again, where were these arguments about logic when Sub-Zero defeated not one, not two, not three but five deities all by himself in Mythologies? When Liu Kang, with only the teachings of an institution that had failed to produce a worthy Earth champion for nine generations defeated Shinnok in 4? How is it that we accept Liu Kang and Sub-Zero doing the impossible again and again, and two female characters with established in-universe reasons for why they have the feats they have are the ones questioned?

 

[zerosebaz]

I ask again, where were these arguments about logic when Sub-Zero defeated not one, not two, not three but five deities all by himself in Mythologies? When Liu Kang, with only the teachings of an institution that had failed to produce a worthy Earth champion for nine generations defeated Shinnok in 4? How is it that we accept Liu Kang and Sub-Zero doing the impossible again and again, and two female characters with established in-universe reasons for why they have the feats they have are the ones questioned?

Sub-zero defeated 4 deities, the elemental gods, he ran away from Shinnok. And there were lots of discussions back then about how Liu Kang defeated Shinnok in MK4, with many people claiming that it was because Shinnok thought he had his amulet, but it was actually the fake one created by Quan Chi. Not that it was cannon or anything, but people did question it.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Kitana was built up when her first bio established her as a 10,000-year-old assassin who was raised and very likely trained by Kahn himself. Armageddon establishes that the Edenians are descended from the gods for crying out loud. If we're going to complain about Rain getting jobbed despite being a demigod, I cannot see why anyone has an issue with Kitana beating Kahn, a guy who lest we forget, had won a grand total of one fight against Kung Lao in the Midway games.

I ask again, where were these arguments about logic when Sub-Zero defeated not one, not two, not three but five deities all by himself in Mythologies? When Liu Kang, with only the teachings of an institution that had failed to produce a worthy Earth champion for nine generations defeated Shinnok in 4? How is it that we accept Liu Kang and Sub-Zero doing the impossible again and again, and two female characters with established in-universe reasons for why they have the feats they have are the ones questioned?

Sub-Zero (Bi-Han) actually gets killed by Scorpion though, who some might argue is a lesser opponent, but he was dragged to hell where Scorpion is stronger. The writers have a reason for why someone with Sub-Zero’s feats loses this fight to Scorpion.

I could say “dude Sub-Zero is trained by the best assassins out there, is only half human, and has extremely powerful abilities”. Every character is strong, I never argued Kitana is weak, just in comparison to Kahn or Liu (who like we have said numerous times beat her with zero effort while she was trying to kill him). Liu Kang has feats before he fights Shinnok or Kahn for that matter. Even just looking at the new games he beats Ermac, Kitana, Scorpion / Quan, Goro, Shang, Kahn in that order. Can you not see the obvious progression of difficulty with the fights he’s going through? Each a little harder than the last, ultimately leading him to the top? He doesn’t go from getting his ass kicked to dominating Kahn. Liu and Sub didn’t do the impossible, they pulled off feats that are well in line with their other feats, while Kitana is beating jobbers then beats Shao Kahn.

Once again stop with the female bullshit, I defended the Sindel scene already. And said it was dumb for BOTH of the Cages to fight Shinnok (including Johnny). I also don’t think Stryker should have beat Mileena, and I’m not surprised Sonya beat Kano.

I don’t care about Rain getting jobbed because saying “he’s a god” means nothing, it only matters how these characters stack up against each other, not in a vacuum.

 

[Cicada 5]

Sub-zero defeated 4 deities, the elemental gods, he ran away from Shinnok.

The game gives you the option of either running away or fighting Shinnok.

And there were lots of discussions back then about how Liu Kang defeated Shinnok in MK4, with many people claiming that it was because Shinnok thought he had his amulet, but it was actually the fake one created by Quan Chi. Not that it was cannon or anything, but people did question it.

This is news to me. Any time I mention Kang beating Shinnok, it's simply handwaved as him being "the chosen one" or whatever.

 

[Cicada 5]

Sub-Zero (Bi-Han) actually gets killed by Scorpion though, who some might argue is a lesser opponent, but he was dragged to hell where Scorpion is stronger. The writers have a reason for why someone with Sub-Zero’s feats loses this fight to Scorpion.

Shinnok was beaten in his own domain by Sub-Zero. When you can beat an elder god, I don't see how a mere spectre is inherently more of a problem based on where they are fighting. And being in hell didn't stop Raiden from beating Scorpion, Quan Chi and the revenants.

I could say “dude Sub-Zero is trained by the best assassins out there, is only half human, and has extremely powerful abilities”. Every character is strong, I never argued Kitana is weak, just in comparison to Kahn or Liu (who like we have said numerous times beat her with zero effort while she was trying to kill him). Liu Kang has feats before he fights Shinnok or Kahn for that matter. Even just looking at the new games he beats Ermac, Kitana, Scorpion / Quan, Goro, Shang, Kahn in that order. Can you not see the obvious progression of difficulty with the fights he’s going through? Each a little harder than the last, ultimately leading him to the top? He doesn’t go from getting his ass kicked to dominating Kahn. Liu and Sub didn’t do the impossible, they pulled off feats that are well in line with their other feats, while Kitana is beating jobbers then beats Shao Kahn.

Once again stop with the female bullshit, I defended the Sindel scene already. And said it was dumb for BOTH of the Cages to fight Shinnok (including Johnny). I also don’t think Stryker should have beat Mileena, and I’m not surprised Sonya beat Kano.

If that's how you want to play it, I can say Kitana losing to jobbers is bad writing as well and she should never have lost to any of those people, including Liu Kang.

And that would be absurd because Mortal Kombat has never had such strict rules about who can beat who, nor should it have them.

I mean look at the caveats you gave that would make Kitana beating Kahn acceptable to you and ask yourself why you don't make the same demands whenever Liu Kang beats the likes of Shao Kahn or Shinnok?

 

[zerosebaz]

The game gives you the option of either running away or fighting Shinnok.

It also gives you the option to spare Scorpion, and Kill Sareena, yet those also didn't happen.

This is news to me. Any time I mention Kang beating Shinnok, it's simply handwaved as him being "the chosen one" or whatever.

Yeah, it's been many many years, but it kinda makes sense since MK9 and MKX made the whole thing irrelevant, since it removed Liu and retconed the fake amulet thing.

 

[Cicada 5]

It also gives you the option to spare Scorpion, and Kill Sareena, yet those also didn't happen.

None of that means Sub-Zero just ran away from Shinnok. Given what he accomplished before that, I'm inclined to think he fought and defeated him.

 

[zerosebaz]

Shinnok was beaten in his own domain by Sub-Zero. When you can beat an elder god, I don't see how a mere spectre is inherently more of a problem based on where they are fighting. And being in hell didn't stop Raiden from beating Scorpion, Quan Chi and the revenants.

He didn't beat him, and it's not his domain, the Netherrealm is Shinnok's prison.
Regarding Scorpion, back when he was a spectre the cannon was that he was more powerful in the Netherrealm and got weaker when outside, but since he's been retconed to be a revenant now I'm pretty sure that's not the case anymore.

 

[zerosebaz]

None of that means Sub-Zero just ran away from Shinnok. Given what he accomplished before that, I'm inclined to think he fought and defeated him.

Well, MK aftermath tells us he ran away from Fujin, so I'm inclined to believe he didn't.

 

[Cicada 5]

He didn't beat him, and it's not his domain, the Netherrealm is Shinnok's prison.

Nothing in the game states he just ran away from him.

Regarding Scorpion, back when he was a spectre the cannon was that he was more powerful in the Netherrealm and got weaker when outside, but since he's been retconed to be a revenant now I'm pretty sure that's not the case anymore.

This was not the case before. In fact, Netherealm and Earth's Hell were considered separate places before NRS merged them into one location. Deadly Alliance did say that being in the Netherealm gave Scorpion a strength boost that made him dangerous to Quan Chi (why Quan Chi didn't receive a similar boost, I don't know) but it was never suggested Scorpion was weak to any real degree when not in the Netherealm.

 

[Eddy Wang]

By this logic, no human should ever win in Mortal Kombat.

They did lost for 500 years, but by the time of liu kang they did won, twice, and shao kahn decided to not wait 500 more for another tournament, so he just decided to take matters by force, and still lost.

I'm not implying any logic, it just how it went.

 

[Eddy Wang]

The game gives you the option of either running away or fighting Shinnok.

It does, and there is only one way to beat him, which is not even cannon either, you need to have 5 chalice which heals back all sub energy so he can do polar blast 5 times, but that's not cannon.
If you try to take Shinnok Head on in the game with anything other than polar blast (that's if you ever unlocked it) Shinnok destroys you in less than 5 seconds.


I played and finished Mythologies multiple times btw.