How are the villains "weak"?

[Eddy Wang]

Wait, is this real? They really tried to make Raiden's and Fujin's role, so to fix it they decided to call them a new tittle, and then backtrack and say they are not actually that tittle, making everything more confusing than it ever was? Not that I ever thought they were great writers, but dam, this is hilarious.

My expectations where low but holy shit

 

[SaltShaker]

All these people saying that its impossible for Kitana to beat Shao Kahn have yet to actually provide a reason why other than "woman." Until I'm given an actual good reason, I'm going to assume these Kitana haters have 15 layers of Cheetos dust on their fingers and binge watch The Quartering.

Why are some of y'all saying "woman" or "woke"? I don't understand. Kitana beating a Prime Shao Khan is like Sonya doing it, or Jax, or Kung Lao, or Jade, or Jacqui, or etc. That's the point. That's the Kitana level.

The entire canon Kitana has never been shown to be some high power character like Liu Kang or MKX Cassie Cage or whoever, and always seemed about middle of the pack. She was beaten and nearly killed 1 on 1 against regular Sindel, while Shao Khan killed Liu Kang. Hell even Sheeva who has jobbed to virtually every hero on the roster, straight up beat Kitana 1 on 1. Imagine Sheeva beating Liu Kang or Shao Khan 1 on 1, how absurd that would sound, yet it was easy peezy to beat Kitana. But somehow Kitana is also strong enough to beat Shao Khan clean? If that's true then Sheeva and half the roster should also be strong enough to beat him, and if he's that weak then he's garbage as this "big bad strong guy".

That's why it's such bad writing. It makes no sense for her to be able to beat the Big Bad of the entire series other than "well she's gonna be the new Khan for story purposes deal with it".

 

[Black Chapters]

Yeah but he can't do it himself. Otherwise the Elder Gods would have just told him to punish Kahn.

We don't know that

but if so, thats the standard bad writing MK has had since 92

because Raiden bodies Liu Kang with ease, and Liu Kang beats Kahn

even if he was saved from death, he still lost to Liu, so logic says Raiden can beat him as well

 

[Black Chapters]

Raiden at a minimum helped in defeating Shinnok 4 times (In the past, with Liu, with Cage, with Cass)

the first one has no info

beyond that Raiden helped train Liu Kang and is thousands of years old and a master of various Martial Arts

Kahn should be cake for him

But this is a fighting game story so no care is applied to it so because they need someone to lose, they lose

 

[Marlow]

It's possible that fighting games are just a difficult genre to write for, at least when "power levels" are being considered.

 

[Black Chapters]

It's possible that fighting games are just a difficult genre to write for, at least when "power levels" are being considered.

not really, they just don't care to try

 

[Marlow]

not really, they just don't care to try

I'm just talking in terms of power levels and character development/interaction.

I feel like there is difficulty is in trying to write a story that involves 10+ characters, all needing plot time and development, in a limited space. Especially if they're trying to keep the power levels relatively balanced, since they're trying to posit a world where these characters fighting each other is somewhat interesting, without descending into a pure One Chosen One vs One Big Bad story.

These are the same issues that happen when crossover comic book things happen, with a whole mess of trying to logic into which characters should be able to beat which other characters based on other past outcomes.

 

[Cicada 5]

Cheap shot, killed off for the plot.

And Kahn was also beaten by Kitana for the plot. And she didn't need a cheap shot to do it.

 

[LiuKangmain]

And Kahn was also beaten by Kitana for the plot. And she didn't need a cheap shot to do it.

The woke bs was the cheap shot lol

 

[LiuKangmain]

We don't know that

but if so, thats the standard bad writing MK has had since 92

because Raiden bodies Liu Kang with ease, and Liu Kang beats Kahn

even if he was saved from death, he still lost to Liu, so logic says Raiden can beat him as well

Raiden also doesn't body Liu Kang. They made him like that in MK9 for whatever fucking stupid reason

 

[Cicada 5]

Why are some of y'all saying "woman" or "woke"? I don't understand. Kitana beating a Prime Shao Khan is like Sonya doing it, or Jax, or Kung Lao, or Jade, or Jacqui, or etc. That's the point. That's the Kitana level.

The entire canon Kitana has never been shown to be some high power character like Liu Kang or MKX Cassie Cage or whoever, and always seemed about middle of the pack. She was beaten and nearly killed 1 on 1 against regular Sindel, while Shao Khan killed Liu Kang. Hell even Sheeva who has jobbed to virtually every hero on the roster, straight up beat Kitana 1 on 1. Imagine Sheeva beating Liu Kang or Shao Khan 1 on 1, how absurd that would sound, yet it was easy peezy to beat Kitana. But somehow Kitana is also strong enough to beat Shao Khan clean? If that's true then Sheeva and half the roster should also be strong enough to beat him, and if he's that weak then he's garbage as this "big bad strong guy".

That's why it's such bad writing. It makes no sense for her to be able to beat the Big Bad of the entire series other than "well she's gonna be the new Khan for story purposes deal with it".

Kitana is descended from the gods and has been trained by Kahn himself. If people are going to cry bullshit over Shinnok losing to Cassie or Johnny because he's an Elder God, then Kitana's losses to Sheeva, Sindel and even Liu Kang should also be dismissed for similar reasons and it can be argued that her beating Kahn makes more sense. The same people complaining about the NRS era turning Kahn into a joke have no problem citing Kitana's losses in MK9 as proof she shouldn't be able to beat Kahn. You can see why the inconsistency would lead some to believe this criticism is rooted in sexist double standards.

Or we can just stop pretending that this made up hierarchy of power has ever existed in Mortal Kombat and accept that, like in real life, fights can go in multiple ways and are not predestined to have a single outcome.

 

[Cicada 5]

Raiden at a minimum helped in defeating Shinnok 4 times (In the past, with Liu, with Cage, with Cass)

the first one has no info

beyond that Raiden helped train Liu Kang and is thousands of years old and a master of various Martial Arts

Kahn should be cake for him

But this is a fighting game story so no care is applied to it so because they need someone to lose, they lose

Raiden has never trained Liu Kang.

 

[Marlow]

Or we can just stop pretending that this made up hierarchy of power has never existed in Mortal Kombat and accept that, like in real life, fights can go in multiple ways and are nor predestined to have a single outcome.

I agree with this.

 

[Juxtapose]

He is canonically one of Shao's top generals and killed Goro.

When did he kill Goro? He powered up with Blood Magic and cut his arms off, which Goro survived.

And yes "successor" in that clearly they were planning on having him take the throne, not literally as in Shao just appointed him.

Mileena ruled for about 17 years after Shao and she was clearly no Shao Kahn. Kotal ruled for about 5 years, and he never beat Mileena himself. Earlier Kotal fell out of Shao's favour and was given over to the flesh pits.

I just know what a power scale is.

People focus too much on "power scaling," as if that's something that's absolute.

Kitana spent the better part of 10,000 years assassinating people for Shao, after being trained by him, and she never felt right about things and was never giving it her all. Doubt while serving under Shao was always a strong part of her modern character. While taking him on, she was in no doubt and absolutely giving it her all.

Wait, is this real? They really tried to make Raiden's and Fujin's role clearer, so to fix it they decided to call them a new tittle, and then backtracked and said they are not actually that tittle, making everything more confusing than it ever was? Not that I ever thought they were great writers, but dam, this is hilarious.

It speaks more about the fans than the writers, as many fans didn't understand the difference between Elder Gods and gods. So for Mortal Kombat11, they started calling Raiden and Fujin "demi-gods," even though it's incorrect, to create more of a distinction.

Here's the interview, jump to 1:07:

 

[Rude]

Why are some of y'all saying "woman" or "woke"? I don't understand. Kitana beating a Prime Shao Khan is like Sonya doing it, or Jax, or Kung Lao, or Jade, or Jacqui, or etc. That's the point. That's the Kitana level.

The entire canon Kitana has never been shown to be some high power character like Liu Kang or MKX Cassie Cage or whoever, and always seemed about middle of the pack. She was beaten and nearly killed 1 on 1 against regular Sindel, while Shao Khan killed Liu Kang. Hell even Sheeva who has jobbed to virtually every hero on the roster, straight up beat Kitana 1 on 1. Imagine Sheeva beating Liu Kang or Shao Khan 1 on 1, how absurd that would sound, yet it was easy peezy to beat Kitana. But somehow Kitana is also strong enough to beat Shao Khan clean? If that's true then Sheeva and half the roster should also be strong enough to beat him, and if he's that weak then he's garbage as this "big bad strong guy".

That's why it's such bad writing. It makes no sense for her to be able to beat the Big Bad of the entire series other than "well she's gonna be the new Khan for story purposes deal with it".

Shao Kahn wasn't the Big Bad of 11. Or of X, or MK4, etc. There have been other Big Bads.

Kitana is like 10,000 years old. Definitely of a higher pay grade than Sonya.

Also, power levels are bullshit. The whole point of introducing them as a story trope is to show how meaningless they are. That's from Toriyama himself. The trope is designed to raise the stakes so that when our protagonist overcomes them, it's even more meaningful.

What I'm trying to say is that none of this matters and the characters that "win" or "lose" in the vast majority of fiction has nothing to do with "power level" and everything to do with what a writer feels best suits the story.

 

[Rude]

Raiden also doesn't body Liu Kang. They made him like that in MK9 for whatever fucking stupid reason

You can't just pick and choose what counts and what doesn't. Raiden killed Liu Kang. Literally cooked that motherfucker. You gotta hold that.

 

[Marlow]

the characters that "win" or "lose" in the vast majority of fiction has nothing to do with "power level" and everything to do with what a writer feels best suits the story.

Samwise Gamgee fights off orcs and a giant spider.

 

[Rude]

Samwise Gamgee fights off orcs and a giant spider.

Samwise was the realest.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I'm just talking in terms of power levels and character development/interaction.

I feel like there is difficulty is in trying to write a story that involves 10+ characters, all needing plot time and development, in a limited space. Especially if they're trying to keep the power levels relatively balanced, since they're trying to posit a world where these characters fighting each other is somewhat interesting, without descending into a pure One Chosen One vs One Big Bad story.

These are the same issues that happen when crossover comic book things happen, with a whole mess of trying to logic into which characters should be able to beat which other characters based on other past outcomes.

This things happens more often because in the new model story, each character has its own chapter, which adds to the purpose that X character needs to lose because protagonist is now Y character in his chapter.


But you could also use this model and have characters lose no matter what they do, it just that it was never crafted that way.

 

[Marlow]

This things happens more often because in the new model story, each character has its own chapter, which adds to the purpose that X character needs to lose because protagonist is now Y character in his chapter.

Honestly where I feel like the writing really hurts MK is how many dumb conflicts they need to manufacture just to set up 4 fights for each character per chapter.

Edit: Like seriously, MK11 the first fight was Cassie Cage vs Sonya? That one really sets the tone on fights that make no logical sense whatsoever. In what branch of military would it be a tradition that to achieve advancement you need to "kick the CO's ass, mam!"? Let alone, fighting a family member, all in front of the rest of the squad? This isn't Starship Troopers (guest character please!).

 

[Eddy Wang]

Honestly where I feel like the writing really hurts MK is how many dumb conflicts they need to manufacture just to set up 4 fights for each character per chapter.

They could relly just write a good story and illustrare in game how it went.

For example, the MKX comic book story in game would be insane, even if they didn't went with the "protagonist has to win every fight for story to progress" thing, it would be an overall great story.

Also NRS needs to move away from timelines and gods, and needs to introduce more grounded stories possibly with new villains who don't require timeline manipulation, its completely unecessary to reboot the story every 3 games and restart mk1 again and again and again and again... you get the idea, it feels like they're stuck in one place.

 

[Juxtapose]

That's from Toriyama himself.

Wait, is that where the term "power levels" comes from? From some manga writer?

Samwise Gamgee fights off orcs and a giant spider.

Faramir: Your his bodyguard?
Sam: His gardener.

 

[Juxtapose]

Honestly where I feel like the writing really hurts MK is how many dumb conflicts they need to manufacture just to set up 4 fights for each character per chapter.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: The dialogue in story mode boils down to this:

 

[Eddy Wang]

Wait, is that where the term "power levels" comes from? From some manga writer?

While power levels was indeed a thing in DBZ, that is actually known as the "Shounen" format, where there is always someone stronger next, and the gonist is always drawing power out of the ass and overcome it, that's literally how shounen mangá works.

Reason why HunterxHunter is very popular and one of the greatest mangas ever written it's because it's the oposite, the fights are all decided by logic, and the protagonist is just a small fry on a world full of beasts he doesn't even get to reach.

 

[Black Chapters]

Raiden also doesn't body Liu Kang. They made him like that in MK9 for whatever fucking stupid reason

its literally stated that Liu Kang has never beaten Raiden

He washed him in X........while he was drained of energy...........after getting beat up 5 v 1..............then beat him 1 v 1......................he owns Liu's ass

then he beat his ass again in 11 and turned him into a god