General/Other - Unbreakable Hopes for Unbreakable and Cryo.

[Savage8-8]

Suggesting for nerfs to get buffs isn't going to help our situation. Grand Master does not need to be touched and is fine the way it is. Cryo is fine as well. The only variation that needs changes is Unbreakable. And honestly it doesn't need that many.

 

[TattedUpKITANA]

I fought Unbreakable on Very Hard and it was the most annoying thing, 0 chip damage.

 

[Wintermute088]

Why does b12 need a third hit? I just wish he would cover more ground when doing b1 for easier whiff punishing. One can hope..

 

[EMPR_MURK]

I know we are all sick of these threads, but I feel I have a respectable knowledge on Sub Zero to give an educated opinion for Unbreakable and Cryomancer balance changes.

With KP2 on the horizon, I am still holding hope that the devs at NRS will continue to look into the weaker variations in the game and bring about a new meta for MKX. With the new releases of characters, we know that the chance for balance patches is inevitable, if and when that happens, here is a list of any changes I would hope to see for Sub Zero, obviously not all of them, but any of them would be a result.

NERFS:
Grandmaster: For Klone shatters to launch from the ground in the corner, they must be meter burned, I think 48% for an armour shattering, safe low launcher to be a bit much.

Frost bomb DB1 and MB DB1 to be much more punishable on block and on wiff.

Slides on wiff should have much more recovery frames to promote better play from Sub Zero players, it shouldn't be an excuse for bad mobility on the player's behalf.

GENERAL:
F4 - Has better recovery, allowing for F4 staggering.

B12 at -3, with a third hit added to the string.

112 = 0 on block, good amount of push back as he literally has no strings to push the opponent off.

114 = -6 on block, currently doesn't have a HKD quality, nor is it safe or damaging.

B334 = -8 on block.

MB Ice Ball should have a much faster start up.

GRAND MASTER:
Slightly more hit advantage on raw grounded klone shatters, possible damage over time effect added?
Increased block advantage on raw MB Klone shatters (not from block strings or strings on hit)

Klone throws on hit shouldn't launch the opponent back, it should leave them standing.

CRYOMANCER:

D2 to be high and much faster on start up, currently mid and 13 frames, never in a competitive game will anyone gamble on landing a Sub Zero D2, it is a death wish…also, it is mid but fully punishable on block…

NJP and J2 to include a Cryomancer Sword animation, same for every other weapon character in the game. Other characters with weapons have them added to the range on their NJP and J2, but for some reason, Cryo doesnt…even Lasher has this added.

Why Sub Zero Cyromancer wasn't given Erron Black’s impale move still boggles me to this day, I never seen a charcater with a sword and dagger variation with less sword and dagger moves centred around the variation.

F12 = +2 On block, for an offensive character, he literally has no or stagger game whatsoever.

MB Air Hammer should be Overhead then low, and launch. This is basic, judging by the animation.

UNBREAKABLE:

Parry should recover instantly on projectiles, and build Sub Zero meter for absorbing them.

MB Parry should be 1 frame, as its a parry, not an armoured move. Currently the slowest MB parry in the game.

Aura should build meter while blocking, same as Kotal.

MB Aura should build the same amount of meter Kotal Kahn does while taking damage.

MB Aura should have the same damage reduction that Kotal Kahn has.

Grounded aura shatters on hit should allow a follow up combo.

MB Aura shatters should be advantage on block.

MB Aura shatter should do much more damage on hit.

F4, 11, F42 into Aura on hit should allow a follow up combo, same as B12.

I understand that some of you might be saying “what? An armoured move that launches and is plus on block”, I hear you, but moves of this nature are already in the game.

Every single one of these hopes for a change to Sub Zero’s weak variations is already in the game currently, if it isn't Kung Lao’s MB Hat Spin, Tremors ground blast, Cassie’s Flip, Erron Black’s Sand Grenade, Tanya’s Safe armour etc etc, Sub Zero just appears to have lost the lottery on the properties and potential for his move set.

Does anyone disagree as to how any of these couldn’t help his weaker Cryomancer and Unbreakable variations or if any of these hopes/suggestions would be over powered? Of course, I don't expect every member on here to be an Unbreakable or Cryomancer expert, but I do assume there will be some pocket Cryo players.

Of course the last option would be to combine Unbreakable and Cryo, and make a whole new variation...never gonna happen.

I agree with everything about Cryomancer. Do you also believe that he should have a sword combo string (similar to ninjistu scorpion)?

 

[EMPR_MURK]

I also feel that air hammer in Cryomancer should gain a mb version that ends with a low and launches...while also making it more negative on block with little push back.

 

[EMPR_MURK]

Wait, cryo? Cryo seems like the best 2nd variation in the game? His last buffs were the most significant in the games history

I have an idea for unbreakable though- the MKDC teleport/slide teleport (00:46)

This was the best subzero design imo. Parry wall combos kreygasm!!!

 

[dennycascade]

This list is soap bars.
And FYI f4 has huge recovery so that it makes things like f4 EX Klone and f4 aura safe/plus on block. If you mess that up you're hurting GM and Unbreakable equally.

 

[Braindead]

Better whiff recovery on F4? Okay the whiff recovery frames may be considered excessive considering they are clearly visible even after the F4 animation ends, but people should be rewarded for backing up and not wanting anything to do with the plus frames it can accumulate from being cancelled into EX Clone and EX Aura respectively.

War God Kotal doesn't gain any new jump attacks despite being a "weapon" oriented variation. Also Bone Shaper and Bojutsu if you want to be semantic about it. But I will agree with giving Cryo a sword for his NJP nonetheless.

Also, Blood God Kotal doesn't have 7 frame jabs, a viable overhead, nor usable armor. Giving activated aura the same properties when blocking as the obsidian totem will promote EXTREME sandbagging for meter on purpose. At best it should simply negate the opponent's meter build.

Yeah I read the explanation for EX Shatter being plus on block with Aura activated and... I still don't understand why it's a good idea.

To make F42 meterless aura linkable on hit there would have to be a substantial change to either it's hitstun (meaning meterless ice would end up comboing), or the recovery of meterless aura. Big no no. I only agree with making F4xxAura, 11xxIce etc. linkable. (which I'd like to add, is also still slightly plus) would only require a couple frames of reduction on the aura.

Anyway, if the presence of Aura should improve anything, it SHOULD be the parry, if Unbreakable is to ever do anything that GM/Cryo simply can't offer. My suggestion would be to make it parry anything/everything safely while it's on as a one time use, and gets rid of the aura once it is used. But IMO that's something that would have to been seen in practice thoroughly before being implemented in a public build of the game.

Dat regulation

 

[Solid]

I always loved your input but asking for Grand master nerfs is Unforgivable. Leave the variation alone. I understand people want buffs for the weaker variations. But Jesus man, the game is not even 1 year old. Frost bomb nerfs? Landing ex frost bomb mid screen nets you 19% damage!? Your buffs for the character are also irrelevant. I agree that Grand master is strong in the corner, but that is the only place he shines. I don't know what you are talking about having no stagger game. How about landing a D4 running in and press standing 1. It jails from almost any range, is 0 on block. You can throw after, if you mistime it and they manage to jump they will still get hit and you easily confirm into F24 whatever ender. You could do S12 to catch people pressing buttons after the S1 tick throw. If 12 his you get a guaranteed F24 follow up into whatever. If they try to low poke after a D4 run in S1 well then hello to B12 confirm into ice ball or whatever. I haven't really seen many Subzero play neutral this way, maybe I haven't been looking in the correct places. All of the above helps Sub to get the opponent in the corner where with two or three correct reads they are dead. Ruining his corner game with silly nerfs will just make Grand master an average character overall. We already had an average Subzero last MK. Please stop asking for nerfs. I mean before asking for nerfs go out and prove it. Go and dominate tournaments with Grand master. Prove me wrong. Prove to me that your changes to Subzero would make a better game.

Edit: F42

 

[Linkuei82]

I feel the GM nerfs are a little excessive.

 

[xInfra Deadx]

Nope.

 

[imblackjames]

ok I've only been playing unbreakable for a couple days nowv and i think 3 things will make itv so much better.

parry start up made to be better (think kotal kahns)

in regular Ice aura you take 15% less damage ex is good at 30%

if you have the ex aura on and u do ex shatter (essentially spending 2 bars) it should do slightlyb more chip than it does now and be neutral on block

like i said I've only been playing it for a couple days but i think those are fair and would make him better without him being dumb

 

[UsedForGlue]

Not to be a douche, but yeah I am getting a little tired of these buff/nerf threads. There's a new one every day, some harboring some pretty ridiculous suggestions. This one doesn't seem as bad though.

Cryo's D2 seems quite alright as it is, the hitbox is amazing. Making it high and a bit faster... Sure I guess? Standing 1 would still be a better anti-air because of the full combo you get from it. NJP and J2 getting sword animations feels more like a luxury. J1 is already good and it's not like Sub uses NJP outside of non-optimized combos and the corner. Impale seem like another luxury, what does Sub-Zero really gain from it that he needs?

F12 +2 I can kinda see the reasoning in and would be an alright-ish buff. MB air hammer overhead to low that launches? Isn't it also relatively safe? This really isn't necessary for Cryo, only thing he gains is an easy combo if the opponent isn't paying attention. Still costs a bar fair enough, but I don't like the sound of it. Also if you're going by animation logic, Mileena's ball should be a low and Teleport an overhead.

Some of the Unbreakable buffs also rub me the wrong way. I very much agree with parry recovering instantly on projectile blocks and building meter and EX parry having a 1-frame startup. Normal aura building meter while blocking okay, but the meter build does have to be low. Difference with Blood God is that his totems is all he has and his lack of armor and the like balances it out. As Sub-Zero you can pretty much put on aura and nullify zoning while you're getting meter in the process. MB aura is the same deal with the meter build. Burst shatters allowing for meterless damage I'm not sure about, though I don't entirely disagree. MB Aura shatters doing and more damage and being + is a big no-no. Justifying it with 'other characters have it' is bad reasoning in my opinion. The fact that other characters have dumb stuff doesn't excuse other characters also getting it. F4, 11 and F42 giving a combo on hit with an aura cancel I agree with, though it has to be a somewhat-tight link like the B12 link.

Yea we are all sick of the threads. But I literally can't contain my excitement for the possibility of Unbreakable or Cryo to be looked at again.

 

[UsedForGlue]

i don't know why u want to nerf grandmaster, he doesnt really need nerfs, maybe scale the damage off them corner frost bombs but thats about it.

That was literally the Nerf. 48% Meterless for an option select B33 Klone shatter, is maybe too much.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Why would you make regular frost bomb even worse? It's practically useless... I would like f4 to have less recovery,but it's not meant for staggers.

Slide is fine. It's not really an issue and seems like a superficial nerf.

Because DB1 isn't supposed to be used outside of Shattering Klones, and shattering the Unbreakable Aura. Other wise you should only use the MB version for armour, it is an amazing armoured launcher that is hard to punish.

My point is, NRS should either be in one corner or another, and that is armoured launchers should be unsafe as balls, or stop giving some characters safe armour and plus on block launchers.

 

[UsedForGlue]

How/what can you armor break with this

B33 Klone shatter will even armour break Kung Lao's tempest spin if he attempts to spin after the B33 if he thinks you will MB Ice Ball.

 

[UsedForGlue]

I agree with a lot of things but dude... plus on block armour that launches , and ex air hammer ? The fuck?

Doesn't Jacqui have this type of move? Except its actually unblock able when charged even one level in high tech. Again, none of these suggestions or hopes for anything are pulled out of my ass, they are all present in the game currently.

 

[trufenix]

remember when we didn't want patches because the meta needed to time grow and develop?

pepperidge farm remembers.

 

[UsedForGlue]

SZ players are so desperate.. you guys always complaining. Just stop with it. Outside maybe a couple Unbreakable changes, good luck..

Again, thats literally what we are talking about. Not Grandmaster, Unbreakable more or less.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Also guys, if you don't want to talk about it, don't. No one is forcing you to like or comment on the thread.

If you play Sub Zero, by all means, feel free, as this is a forum after all.

 

[RM Ree]

I'd like to bring attention to the fact that War God Kotal doesn't swing his sword during an NJP either.

Not for, nor against this thread. Just an observation.

 

[UsedForGlue]

Suggesting for nerfs to get buffs isn't going to help our situation. Grand Master does not need to be touched and is fine the way it is. Cryo is fine as well. The only variation that needs changes is Unbreakable. And honestly it doesn't need that many.

I honestly don't agree with the Community on the feeling that Cryo is fine.

When you boil it down, he is basically Sub Zero without a Klone, and nothing to repay the choice of choosing to use it.

Sub Zero's offence is incredibly limited outside of a punishable 16 frame B2, and a low that will always require meter to use competitively. Now, I understand he has decent damage, but again, his offence options are terrible without using a bar, and the threat is always overhead.

 

[UsedForGlue]

I'd like to bring attention to the fact that War God Kotal doesn't swing his sword during an NJP either.

Not for, nor against this thread. Just an observation.

Fair enough point, but doesn't he at least get a new projectile, a ground pound move that cancels, a combo ender, an armoured launcher, a low and and a overhead?

Sub Zero gets...A D2 (which is useless), F12 and 11(1)...just seems lacking in imagination considering his variation is centred around "Ice weapons".

 

[DDutchguy]

Fair enough point, but doesn't he at least get a new projectile, a ground pound move that cancels, a combo ender, an armoured launcher, a low and and a overhead?

Sub Zero gets...A D2 (which is useless), F12 and 11(1)...just seems lacking in imagination considering his variation is centred around "Ice weapons".

And a very good combo ender and a hammer that greatly amplifies his damage both midscreen and in the corner. It counts.

I do agree that Cryo and Unbreakable (mostly Unbreakable) need buffs, but I'm not entirely sure this is the way to go about it. Some of these buffs can give Cryo/Unbreakable dirt, which I'd rather not have.

 

[TheJaquio]

I dunno about the grand master nerf suggestions, but unbreakable could use all the help it can get. I could also get behind a faster d2 for cryomancer and jump attacks with more range, as well as improvements to either the speed or utility of air/normal hammer as a mixup tool. Would F12 being +2 really help him though? Isn't the start up on f1 14 frames or something ridiculous?