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Guide Hermes Dash Cancel Pressure (Revision 3.0)

Revision (3.0) date: December 1st, 2013.

Alright. so....whats bothering me is that kratos is REALLY hated lol. i dont blame anyone, but sadly i dont play with him myself. THOUGH! another thing that was bothering me since i ever TRIED Kratos, is that it seems like no one knew about his dash cancel combos. I saw tylerlantern and check, re making kratos combos to do a max damaging meter combos of 76% percent and 71% just recently.

will, what if i told you that u can do 90% combos with 3 meters? or lets see....55% Meterless BNB?
here's a quick video I made, about Kratos Dash cancel in combos, and others. hope you all like it


Video notes:
"In here, you will see and understand what is Dash canceling. because of dash canceling, Kratos can deal more damage without the use of a single meter. A single Meterless BNB can hit up to 55%. So imagine the possibilities of adding Enhanced attacks?

Dash cancel can be used as Anti wake up, Footsies, Pressure game, and greatly enhances Kratos Combo Ability.

This is something i knew from months ago. I tried to make a Project learning Lab for Kratos, sadly nobody loves him as much compared to the other roaster. So i decided to make this small vid, just to talk about Dash cancel SPECIFICALLY ,were a lot of people dont know about it so far.
Watch and enjoy. hope this video was helpful or new to you."


Hermes Dash Cancel pressure (abbreviated as "HDC") is a fundamental aspect of Kratos' gameplan. Without HDC capabilities, Kratos is arguably the worst close-quarters-kombatant in MK9. With proficiency in HDCs, Kratos is like Kabal's trouble-making stepchild who is able to harness a portion of his daddy's powers.

HDC pressure gives Kratos a form of blockstring pressure, and as with all pressure, it gives Kratos super meter and inflicts chip damage upon his opponent. Some less-noticeable effects include: letting your opponent know of how threatening Kratos can be, and making the opponent feel uncomfortable around Kratos, which is a great psychological bonus for you.

Primary HDC moves:
These normals and strings are Kratos' primary tools:

1xxHDC
1,1xxHDC
1,1,2xxHDC

2xxHDC
2,1xxHDC
2,1,2xxHDC

D4xxHDC

B1,2
B1,B4
B1xxHDC
B1xxApollo's Bow

Execution Data:

1 -----( 12
2 -----( 12
D+4 --( 12
B+1---( 21

Advantage on block:
Frame advantage is assuming the HDC and following attacks are done to-the-frame.

1 -----( +8
1,1 ---( +6
1,1,2--( +8
2 -----( +8
2,1 ---( +8
2,1,2 -( +9
D+4 --( +8
B+1 --( +1

Execution Data, adjusted by Frame Advantage on block:

+1
1 ----( 11
2 ----( 11
D+4 -( 11
F+4 -( 12
B+1--( 20

+6
1 ----( 6
2 ----( 6
D+4 -( 6
F+4 -( 7
B+1--(15

+8
1 ----( 4
2 ----( 4
D+4 -( 4
F+4 -( 5
B+1--(13

+9
1 ----( 3
2 ----( 3
D+4 -( 3
F+4 -( 4
B+1--(12

Some ways to start pressure include using D4xxHDC, or ending your combos with Helios Head~JIP,*string cancelled into an HDC*.

Normal HDC Pressure:

The usual way of doing HDC pressure is to mix up Kratos' three-hit strings with an HDC, for they provide the guessing game needed to keep your opponent blocking. Cancel a string into an HDC, before the three hits or after. Following an HDC, it is best to repeat the process with one of the two 3-hit strings, while never becoming repetitive and predictable in your pressure.

Protip: Standing 2xxHDC is actually very fast and hard to react to. I like to use 2xxHDC for more complicated mixups. (Note: Don't use this after 1,1xxHDC)

Options and stuff:

Apollo's Bow ender:

While the opponent may release block and be able to jump out of HDC pressure, consider the option of cancelling out of the end of your string into Apollo's Bow instead of an HDC to catch the opponent and return to HDC pressure, or stop it there and wait for the opponent to do something unsafe and/or reckless.

If the opponent happens to block the arrows, it may be wise to anticipate your opponent's next attack. Not many know the safety of Apollo's Bow (-1), so they may try something that only works on unsafe point-blank projectiles, like a full-combo punish. In this case, the Golden Fleece is a good option, unless dealing with low-hitting attacks.

More cautious opponents may try to poke you and then start their own pressure, in this case, it's best to lure them into a false sense of security by blocking the poke and (because most pokes are negative on block) use the Golden Fleece on their attempt to pressure. Of course, the possibility that they will poke more than once is there, but this is all part of the mind games of kombat.

Protip: 2,1,2 can be jumped out of, for there is a gap between the second and last hit. I recommend using Apollo's Bow to catch opponents that may try to jump out through the gap.

Hermes Backdash Cancel:

Another way of dealing with opponents trying to jump out of HDC pressure, is to backdash your HDC, into B1xxHelios (B1 is Kratos' best anti-air normal).
It is usually best to do a Hermes Backdash Cancel into B1~Helios after a three-hitting string, and maybe D4, but it all depends on your gut instincts concerning your opponent.

Caution: B1 has 21 frames of startup, so the AA has to be on a good read (i.e. lucky guess :p ). In the event that the opponent does not try to jump out, then B1,2 will come out, and if that whiffs, Kratos is usually in trouble.

HDC~Crossup JIP:

This is one method of mixing up your HDC pressure. This is best-used during a situation which you would normally cancel into further pressure, not in situations where you would end it (e.g. Apollo's Bow ender and the Hermes Backdash Cancel).
Uppercuts can easily hit Kratos out of a crossup here, so I don't use this all that often.

An HDC~Crossup JIP is useful to avoid armored specials, especially those that leave the opponent standing in relatively the same place. (e.g. Scorpion's Flame Spear, Kenshi's Spirit Vengeance)

Down+4:

D4 can hit low-hitbox characters who may attempt to crouch Kratos' HDC pressure. In most cases, repeating D4, D4, D4s can catch those who attempt to counter-poke.

Be advised: it is easy for an opponent to jump out before the D4 gets to the active frames.

The above can be circumvented by hitting the opponent once with a D4xxHDC, and doing D4xxHDCs repeatedly. Perfect, to-the-frame D4xxHDCs will beat out any poke and catch any jump out attempt that the opponent may try to do.

B1 mixups:

Seeing as B1 is a slow move at 21 frames, it is best to use this when your opponent respects your pressure. B1 grants a variety of mixups:

B1,B4 is a mid-to-low hitting string, which knocks down on hit, and leaves both neutral on block.

B1,2 is a mid-to-overhead string, which also knocks down on hit. This should be rarely used, since Kratos is -20 on block, and if the opponent tech rolls on hit, Kratos will be at -56.

B1xxHDC is good to go back into more HDC pressure, or if you're feeling ballsy, to go into another B1 mixup situation.

B1xxApollo's Bow will catch those gap-jumpers, and if B1 anti-airs, there is a good chance that you will get a full-combo punish after the arrows.


-----------------------
Go see Somberness' Kratos Frame Data for more information about that.
 
Last edited:
Alien Substance How did u count his Hermes Cancel advantage? I tried to count but i think im doing it wrong, lol.
I had absolutely no idea, but being the guy that I am, I looked through Somberness' Frame Data threads and came across an explanation by him in Stryker's Frame Data thread:
23 - 25 = -2, the cancel advantage minus the minimum duration.
Count the cancel advantage of the move, subtract the minimum duration of the Hermes Dash.

Example:
Standing 1: +26 cancel advantage on block
Hermes Dash: 18-212 duration.

26 minus 18 equals 8.
 

SaJa

FH_FenriR
There should be f2, HDc aswell, it's a great stater, good range, good in mixup, and is also overhead.

My BnB is f2, HDc, f4, 2, 2, helios, JiP, f2, HDc, f4, 2, 4. 55%.

I just added f2 before the 2nd JiP to add +2%.
 
There should be f2, HDc aswell, it's a great stater, good range, good in mixup, and is also overhead.

My BnB is f2, HDc, f4, 2, 2, helios, JiP, f2, HDc, f4, 2, 4. 55%.
I just added f2 before the 2nd JiP to add +2%.
I thought it was already there. :confused:
----BHDC~F+2xxHDC
Kratos' F+2 functions like a slower version of Kitana's F+2. Could whiff-punish some attacks, and is safe on block due to the HDC. It is possible to hit-confirm into F+4,2. The hit-confirmation is through the F+2 and done by the F+4: On hit, F+4,2. On block, F+4xxHDC.
Unless you're referring to F+2 as a starter to the HDC block strategy, SaJa?
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
212 is awesome footsies, the range on that last hit is epic, i love fooling people with that by backing up in teh middle of pressure and doing the full string xD
 

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
I love me some Kratos....I just don't use HDC's....:(. Perhaps I should though, it'll only help my execution. I was under the impression that I could only HDC off of f2...a command normal that I don't regularly use. #themoreyouknow
 
I love me some Kratos....I just don't use HDC's....:(. Perhaps I should though, it'll only help my execution. I was under the impression that I could only HDC off of f2...a command normal that I don't regularly use. #themoreyouknow
F+2 is the only normal that allows you to continue a combo after an HDC. For example, F+2xxHDC, F+4,2 is a true combo. Hermes Dash Canceling blocked normals gives you significant frame advantage, which is very helpful for a fighter as slow as Kratos. (Fastest normal that isn't a poke is 12 frames and hits high)
 

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
F+2 is the only normal that allows you to continue a combo after an HDC. For example, F+2xxHDC, F+4,2 is a true combo. Hermes Dash Canceling blocked normals gives you significant frame advantage, which is very helpful for a fighter as slow as Kratos. (Fastest normal that isn't a poke is 12 frames and hits high)
I was reading it wrong. My mistake on that. Yes I guess I was referring to the ability to continue a combo when I said f2. Maaaaaaann...If I try to build a HDC pressure game.....I'd be playing Krab Toad quite a bit...lol I appreciate the work that you and anyone else who takes extra time to work on kratos. Without such things, I wouldn't be contemplating using him that much. Less build/learn any sort of HDC stuff. (aside from f2..which like I said, I hardly use. )
 
Updated to Revision 2.2.

Changes include listing frame execution data; frame execution data with HDC block advantage, showing how good Kratos' HDC chip pressure can be if perfected; some more note-organizing. Yay, updates!
 

Axel_Redd

Vampire Jesus....he wants YOUR blood now!!
Updated to Revision 2.5.

Changes include listing frame execution data; frame execution data with HDC block advantage, showing how good Kratos' HDC chip pressure can be if perfected; some more note-organizing. Yay, updates!
nice, ur ps3 workin yet?
 

huh

Noob
It's been pretty hard for me to pullout HDC after D4. I use a regular ps3 pad, and after I hit D4, the BF4 motion seems pretty hard on the pad. I've put several hours trying to make it happen... Is there any trick to make it easier, or it is really a matter of practice and lightning fast thumb? :)

Just to confirm: from the frame data in the OP if i keep doing 2,1~HDC, unless an opponent has a 4 frame normal, I can keep pressuring safely as long he doesn't crouch poke, right?
 
huh
It was quite difficult for me as well, until I got a little groove with D+4xxHDC. Try hitting down and back, first pressing D, then B, and finally F very quickly after. At the same time, press 4 as you tap D, then hit 4 again and hold it as your left thumb presses F.

I usually like to slide between D and B, near the joint of my thumb, and press F with the point of the thumb.
You kind of have to find a little muscle memory between both your thumbs.

>Frame Data
It's actually lenient to five frames, as nobody has an attack faster than six frames (except for CSZ's iaShort Dive-Kick). However, those with small hitboxes, like Sektor, Mileena, Kitana and others, can crouch under standing 2 and poke out. Those with big hitboxes are most vulnerable 2,1xxHDC pressure, such as Noob Saibot and Liu Kang.

Perfect 2,1xxHDCs can be armored out of, but the EX special has to inputted on the first frame (1 out of 4) frames of free activity, if they don't, it's likely they'll get hit before their armor activates.
Raiden is immune to HDC pressure, as his teleport has a 1-frame startup. Kratos and Cyber S-Z are nearly invulnerable with their parries, but D+4xxHDC/Arrows/Zeus' Rage is still a threat.
 
Reactions: huh

huh

Noob
huh
It was quite difficult for me as well, until I got a little groove with D+4xxHDC. Try hitting down and back, first pressing D, then B, and finally F very quickly after. At the same time, press 4 as you tap D, then hit 4 again and hold it as your left thumb presses F.
Great help! I feel kind of lame for not thinking about making D, B and then F fast (and sync 4 accordingly) in a fluid motion. Almost a DBF motion. For some reason, I was mentally stuck separating D4 and them BF4 in my mind and thus, making it almost impossible due to the gap between commands I was imposing myself. I've already tested, and now it seems to come easier. It's still hard to pull off but now I see the light, thanks!!

HDC is a very important tool, and I hope someday I can pull this out during actual matches, since I feel that this could help me greatly on several MUs.
 
Great help! I feel kind of lame for not thinking about making D, B and then F fast (and sync 4 accordingly) in a fluid motion. Almost a DBF motion. For some reason, I was mentally stuck separating D4 and them BF4 in my mind and thus, making it almost impossible due to the gap between commands I was imposing myself. I've already tested, and now it seems to come easier. It's still hard to pull off but now I see the light, thanks!!

HDC is a very important tool, and I hope someday I can pull this out during actual matches, since I feel that this could help me greatly on several MUs.
You're welcome!
It happened to me too. I still have some issues with doing D+4xxHDC consistently, but that's more or less due to me having greater intervals between MK9 sessions.

Just don't get irritated when input latency makes you unable to do these in certain matches online. :3
 
Reactions: huh
What was added/changed?
Almost everything.
Revision (2.2) date: March 19th, 2013.

Alright. so....whats bothering me is that kratos is REALLY hated lol. i dont blame anyone, but sadly i dont play with him myself. THOUGH! another thing that was bothering me since i ever TRIED Kratos, is that it seems like no one knew about his dash cancel combos. I saw tylerlantern and check, re making kratos combos to do a max damaging meter combos of 76% percent and 71% just recently.

will, what if i told you that u can do 90% combos with 3 meters? or lets see....55% Meterless BNB?
here's a quick video I made, about Kratos Dash cancel in combos, and others. hope you all like it


Video notes:
"In here, you will see and understand what is Dash canceling. because of dash canceling, Kratos can deal more damage without the use of a single meter. A single Meterless BNB can hit up to 55%. So imagine the possibilities of adding Enhanced attacks?

Dash cancel can be used as Anti wake up, Footsies, Pressure game, and greatly enhances Kratos Combo Ability.

This is something i knew from months ago. I tried to make a Project learning Lab for Kratos, sadly nobody loves him as much compared to the other roaster. So i decided to make this small vid, just to talk about Dash cancel SPECIFICALLY ,were a lot of people dont know about it so far.
Watch and enjoy. hope this video was helpful or new to you."


Primary HDC Pressure Moves:

Frame Execution Data:

1 -----( 12
2 -----( 12
D+4 --( 12
F+4 --( 13
B+1---( 21


Frame Advantage on block:
Frame advantage is assuming the HDC and following attacks are done to-the-frame.

1 -----( +8
1,1 ---( +6
1,1,2--( +8
2 -----( +8
2,1 ---( +8
2,1,2 -( +9
D+4 --( +8
B+1 --( +1
F+4 --( -5


Frame Execution Data (Adjusted by Frame Advantage on block):

-5
1 ----( 17
2 ----( 17
D+4 -( 17
F+4 -( 18
B+1--( 26


+1
1 ----( 11
2 ----( 11
D+4 -( 11
F+4 -( 12
B+1--( 20


+6
1 ----( 6
2 ----( 6
D+4 -( 6
F+4 -( 7
B+1--(15


+8
1 ----( 4
2 ----( 4
D+4 -( 4
F+4 -( 5
B+1--(13


+9
1 ----( 3
2 ----( 3
D+4 -( 3
F+4 -( 4
B+1--(12


Notes:
  • If you are capable of doing perfect HDCs consistently, the only threats to your pressure are those with low hitboxes (1 and 2 will whiff) and Armor specials (perhaps?). With a low hitbox, you would probably be more inclined to D+4 to stop them from poking out, and D+4 can be easily jumped out of.
  • 1 and 2 hit high, F+4 and B+1 hit mid.
  • 1,1,2 and 2,1,2 cause pushback on block.
  • The last "2" in the 2,1,2 string whiffs at point-blank, so pay attention to the relative distance of Kratos and his opponent when attempting to execute 2,1,2. The string can also be jumped out of on block before the last "2" hits.
Anti-Counter Strategy:

HDC pressure is good for building meter and inflicting chip damage. Your opponent likely won't want that, so you have to be wary of an attempt to interrupt your pressuring, especially if your HDC pressure game has not been perfected (i.e. you cannot perform everything to-the-frame), or if your opponent's character has a low hitbox.

Kratos' anti-counter strategy here is mostly a guessing game, similar to Kabal's NDC pressure system.

There are different actions that your opponent might do during your HDC pressure to interrupt it, and there is a certain option for all of them.
Options making use of a BHDC are often more effective after 1,1,2 and 2,1,2 due to their pushback properties on block.


Terminology:
HDC = Hermes Dash Cancel
BHDC = Backdash HDC
/ = Or

>Crossover attempt.
-BHDC, B+1
-HDC, 1 / D+1 / Golden Fleece


>Poking out
-BHDC, Zeus' Rage / Head of Helios
-HDC, D+4


>High-hitting attack (Like Sektor's Standing 1)
-HDC, D+4 / Golden Fleece

>Fast attack or short-ranged move.
-HDC, Golden Fleece
-BHDC, Zeus' Rage / Head of Helios / 1xxHelios


>Advancing/ranged attack.
-HDC, Golden Fleece
-BHDC/HDC, Crossover JIP


>Armored attack.
-BHDC/HDC, Crossover.
-HDC, Golden Fleece



Notes:
  • Knowing your opponent's options (specials and attacks) will help greatly in your ability to properly guess and counter.
  • The Golden Fleece cannot parry all pokes and most low-hitting attacks. Certain specials cannot be parried, such as Ermac's Telepush and Lift, or Kenshi's astral energy specials.
------------------------------------------

Go see Somberness' Kratos Frame Data for more information about that.