Grundy changes??

[1truking]

if they changed WCC to be the same input no matter what i'd be so happy.
I'm so so tired of people NJ and me not knowing which side they're on.... and then my WCC doesnt' come out and they get a full combo when I made the right read.... yet the game switched the inputs

basically i'm tired of hitting both inputs half the time to get the cancel.

I try to hit both inputs and it still doesn't work consistently. It only seems to work if your first input is the correct one. Might be just me being slow but I tried in training setting them to jump and got right next to them so it would always cross under and input both sides only canceled if I did the cross up input first.

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

Cleaver spin shouldn't be a full combo punish. Why do so many characters have safe, even +on block, 50/50s but grundy gets full combo punished whenever the opponent guesses right. I'm fine with command grab being unsafe though, they're unsafe in every game.

It should still be negative, but lessen it so that we can block or backdash after it.

Faster cancel time for WC. If anyone has ever played Potemkin, you know how you can choose what point to cancel the move? I'm thinking of something like that.

-grundy's standing 3 isnt that great(perhaps one of his worst normal moves). it doesnt lead to much by itself and i dont understand why its -2 on block. this move should be buffed to +2~3 on block so that he can keep some pressure against opponents. as we all know his starting bnb is 12 frame startup, so this change can be a great help to his gamestyle/pressure. on hit i recommend having the opponent lift into the air a tad bit higher making d2 easier to hit in the corner. sure 3,2 launches the opponent already but if you commit to it you will be at -1 on block. at least with hit confirming with just 3 will make things alot better for more experienced players

-grundys 3,3 is also not that good.i recommend making the second part come out 1 frame faster, right now its punishable by 8 frame moves. you could also back dash it, super or armor it. so making it a frame faster isnt asking too much. also on block the push back is too much. by reducing the pushback a tad bit from a block 3,3 it would help grundys mid game so other moves can actually reach them so you can followup with more stuff.. whats the point of having +12 block advantage if you cant even hit them midscreen? lol

Beyond that I would like to see WCC motion stay the same even if you cross under. Its frustrating to do a WCC only to have them avoid it and the input gets crossed up. Tried to do reverse inputs as well as forward to option select but it doesn't work.

The anti air grab really should have a f/b option to allow you to throw the opponent left or right. Its frustrating to be in the corner at the end of round 1 only to have them do a jump. d2 won't hit them consistently so you're left with df1 or let them pressure you for free

 

[doubleperfect]

if they changed WCC to be the same input no matter what i'd be so happy.
I'm so so tired of people NJ and me not knowing which side they're on.... and then my WCC doesnt' come out and they get a full combo when I made the right read.... yet the game switched the inputs

basically i'm tired of hitting both inputs half the time to get the cancel.

this right here is good feedback. being crossed over the input is no longer the same to do WCC. i dont understand why they dont have the input as one button to cancel. that would be a whole lot better for the grundy community.

having cancel button be that one of the attack buttons. so regardless of where the opponent is at it wont cross up the input OR you can have said input to be up/down to cancel since cross up will still be the same input. this change will make grundy work so much more better mechanically

hopefully NRS looks in the threads to look whats being said

 

[Gruff757]

how about simply making it to where you can just block to cancel it? -runs-

 

[doubleperfect]

Cleaver spin shouldn't be a full combo punish. Why do so many characters have safe, even +on block, 50/50s but grundy gets full combo punished whenever the opponent guesses right. I'm fine with command grab being unsafe though, they're unsafe in every game.

It should still be negative, but lessen it so that we can block or backdash after it.

Faster cancel time for WC. If anyone has ever played Potemkin, you know how you can choose what point to cancel the move? I'm thinking of something like that.

im not sure about canceling wwc at any time, but i do agree that a full punish on clever spin is ridiculous. i mean its -22....no ones that slow to punish that much recovery. in fact its overkill. i dont understand why they dont at least change it so its -9~10 at least this way players have to react properly to punish on a timely manner.

how about simply making it to where you can just block to cancel it? -runs-

this would be good too, a change to just pressing/holding block to cancel animation is also something that could prevent inputs being messed up when crossed up

 

[1truking]

im not sure about canceling wwc at any time, but i do agree that a full punish on clever spin is ridiculous. i mean its -22....no ones that slow to punish that much recovery. in fact its overkill. i dont understand why they dont at least change it so its -9~10 at least this way players have to react properly to punish on a timely manner.




this would be good too, a change to just pressing/holding block to cancel animation is also something that could prevent inputs being messed up when crossed up

I have to point to scorpion as an example of people who in fact are unable to punish -22 or even react to 23 frames. I personally can pretty consistently punish a scorpion ducked teleport but I hear constantly how people can't get full combo punish on the whiff. Its over -20. Even in lag I can consistently duck and 112. Typically I just do d2 because its lag and I'm lazy but thats still only 4 frames faster.

Also think being able to cancel WC at any point would be too much of a buff. Not a big fan of overbuffing but things that seem glaring errors I don't agree with. I think cleaver should be full combo punishable because he has so many options. block strings into cleaver or trait or bf2 etc.. grundy is high damage so high reward he's medium to high risk in a lot of situations too. it fits the character design. throwing somebody out of the corner with anti air grab doesn't really fit the character design and getting crossed up on inputs for WCC doesn't really fit character design.

Just my opinions.

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

I have to point to scorpion as an example of people who in fact are unable to punish -22 or even react to 23 frames. I personally can pretty consistently punish a scorpion ducked teleport but I hear constantly how people can't get full combo punish on the whiff. Its over -20. Even in lag I can consistently duck and 112. Typically I just do d2 because its lag and I'm lazy but thats still only 4 frames faster.

If someone can't punish something that's negative -20+ then they're just horrid. That's not a good argument for cleaver spin being so ridiculously punishable. When almost everyone else has safe 50/50s.

Also think being able to cancel WC at any point would be too much of a buff. Not a big fan of overbuffing but things that seem glaring errors I don't agree with.

Explain how that would be overbuffing.

I think cleaver should be full combo punishable because he has so many options. block strings into cleaver or trait or bf2 etc.. grundy is high damage so high reward he's medium to high risk in a lot of situations too. it fits the character design.

No, there are 2 options. If you jump you get hit with cleaver spin, which doesn't even do 20%, or you get hit by trait for not jumping which does max 30ish%. No good player get's hit by swamps hands while in a blockstring.
How does the opponent guessing right once so they can get a full combo punish on him, a good character design? Killer Frost, Black Adam, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Bane, Batgirl, Wonderwoman, Harley, Flash, Nightwing etc. all have overheads and lows that are + on block or leave them with more options than the defender, while also leading to more damage on hit. Explain why it's all good for Grundy's to be extremely negative on block.[/quote]

 

[1truking]

If someone can't punish something that's negative -20+ then they're just horrid. That's not a good argument for cleaver spin being so ridiculously punishable. When almost everyone else has safe 50/50s.


Explain how that would be overbuffing.

No, there are 2 options. If you jump you get hit with cleaver spin, which doesn't even do 20%, or you get hit by trait for not jumping which does max 30ish%. No good player get's hit by swamps hands while in a blockstring.
How does the opponent guessing right once so they can get a full combo punish on him, a good character design? Killer Frost, Black Adam, Aquaman, Green Lantern, Bane, Batgirl, Wonderwoman, Harley, Flash, Nightwing etc. all have overheads and lows that are + on block or leave them with more options than the defender, while also leading to more damage on hit. Explain why it's all good for Grundy's to be extremely negative on block.

[/quote]

Again I'm pointing to the fact that people are saying scorpions teleport whiff is a buff despite it being as negative as the cleaver. Maybe I'm actually being facetious here and pointing out that people whining about scorpions teleport whiff being too good are essentially saying they can't punish a grundy cleaver spin on block.

it fits the grappler character design. Cleaver isn't a good option for stopping them from jumping either bf2 is the option of choice for opponents jumping. Some characters can d1 before trait comes out on a block string and mb swamp hands is the option for that. Grapplers typically are high reward moderate to high risk. Grundy has unblockable options that those characters don't have. so while they have safe 50/50's grundy has unblockable 50/50's and has unblockable oki options that are fairly damaging. BG 50/50's also can be punished if you guess correctly or have armor she's not the best example.


If you could WCC at any point you could blow through a lot of things and throw off the balance of the game. Its akin to what people are complaining about with scorpion. Its not really something the game is designed to handle having essentially unlimited no risk armor. Consider oki options where you do a WC and see they didn't do a wakeup attack and jumped instantly you cancel into an AA grab. As a grundy player of course I'd love him to be able to do this. It would make most matches he loses a joke but as a long time tournament player I don't think it works in the games system and it would probably put him to s+ tier. He already gives scorpion trouble.

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

Again I'm pointing to the fact that people are saying scorpions teleport whiff is a buff despite it being as negative as the cleaver. Maybe I'm actually being facetious here and pointing out that people whining about scorpions teleport whiff being too good are essentially saying they can't punish a grundy cleaver spin on block.

No, they are complaining about whiff punishing due to the fact that if you don't recognize it quickly enough, some characters won't be able to punish in time, especially online. No good player blocks cleaver spin and fails to recognize that it's time to click buttons.
A whiffed teleport and blocked cleaver spin are very different

it fits the grappler character design. Cleaver isn't a good option for stopping them from jumping either bf2 is the option of choice for opponents jumping. Some characters can d1 before trait comes out on a block string and mb swamp hands is the option for that.

Um, no Dead air is not a good move for calling jumps. Cleaver spin has more range, even if the enemy wasn't in a blockstring and you call a jump it can punish. Dead air throws the enemy away from you, whil cleaver spin leaves you up close. Cleaver spin leads to more damage on MB. Dead air is negative as fuck on block, atleast with cleaver spin you can MB it to make it safe. Cleaver spin never misses if the opponent is trying to jump. If you have the enemy in the corner, dead air will make you lose that. I literally can't think of a reason as to why you would Dead air unless your back is to the corner.
You should rarely be using those strings to tick throw players that know the match-up. Instead of mashing they would just backdash. No good player is getting hit by MB swamp in a blockstring unless they aren't comfortable or knowledgeable enough on the match-up.

Grapplers typically are high reward moderate to high risk. Grundy has unblockable options that those characters don't have. so while they have safe 50/50's grundy has unblockable 50/50's and has unblockable oki options that are fairly damaging. BG 50/50's also can be punished if you guess correctly or have armor she's not the best example.

Kanji, King, Cerebella, Potemkin, Zangeif, Abel, Clark, Raiden (kof), Abel, Hugo, Bane, Kira, etc. etc. don't have options to stop jumping or overheads that leave them to getting full combo punished. How is cleaver spin being -20+ the grappler design. Name 3 grapplers that have this problem.

50/50s are 50/50s, it all boils down to the fact that there are two choices, and if the opponent guesses wrong they get hurt. Grundy is the same as the others in that respect. Still no reason for both his options to be full combo punishable. Only the C. grab, as is the case with all grapplers.

BG's b.2 leaves her at neutral, and b.1 is -2. How is that punishable?

If you could WCC at any point you could blow through a lot of things and throw off the balance of the game. Its akin to what people are complaining about with scorpion. Its not really something the game is designed to handle having essentially unlimited no risk armor. Consider oki options where you do a WC and see they didn't do a wakeup attack and jumped instantly you cancel into an AA grab. As a grundy player of course I'd love him to be able to do this. It would make most matches he loses a joke but as a long time tournament player I don't think it works in the games system and it would probably put him to s+ tier. He already gives scorpion trouble.

I understand this, and I'll agree with you.

 

[1truking]

No, they are complaining about whiff punishing due to the fact that if you don't recognize it quickly enough, some characters won't be able to punish in time, especially online. No good player blocks cleaver spin and fails to recognize that it's time to click buttons.
A whiffed teleport and blocked cleaver spin are very different

Um, no Dead air is not a good move for calling jumps. Cleaver spin has more range, even if the enemy wasn't in a blockstring and you call a jump it can punish. Dead air throws the enemy away from you, whil cleaver spin leaves you up close. Cleaver spin leads to more damage on MB. Dead air is negative as fuck on block, atleast with cleaver spin you can MB it to make it safe. Cleaver spin never misses if the opponent is trying to jump. If you have the enemy in the corner, dead air will make you lose that. I literally can't think of a reason as to why you would Dead air unless your back is to the corner.
You should rarely be using those strings to tick throw players that know the match-up. Instead of mashing they would just backdash. No good player is getting hit by MB swamp in a blockstring unless they aren't comfortable or knowledgeable enough on the match-up.
Kanji, King, Cerebella, Potemkin, Zangeif, Abel, Clark, Raiden (kof), Abel, Hugo, Bane, Kira, etc. etc. don't have options to stop jumping or overheads that leave them to getting full combo punished. How is cleaver spin being -20+ the grappler design. Name 3 grapplers that have this problem.

50/50s are 50/50s, it all boils down to the fact that there are two choices, and if the opponent guesses wrong they get hurt. Grundy is the same as the others in that respect. Still no reason for both his options to be full combo punishable. Only the C. grab, as is the case with all grapplers.

BG's b.2 leaves her at neutral, and b.1 is -2. How is that punishable?


I understand this, and I'll agree with you.

Cleaver spin is only effective on a back jump forward jumps and neutral jumps you can actually avoid it. Thats nto a good option. dead air can't be jumped out of a block string.

FYI I played REO last night and I did cleaver spin and he blocked it and never once punished it. Guess that means REO is a terrible player right?

And wow you brought up king? You really don't know who I am. King is a terrible example anyway. most of the characters you listed don't have a situation they can create like grundy and don't have an anti air option like that even though as I said the cleaver really isn't a good anti air option in that situaton either. Zangiefs ultra is the closest option which leaves him full combo punishable. King doesn't need to stop jumping its tekken and as one of the pioneers of high level king play I wouldn't call him a grappler in the same sense as the other characters you mention.

 

[ll Nooby ll]

I can't agree with making WCC a motion that can't be crossed up. As I feel this is one of the only ways to combat his pressure using WCCs.

On an other note, from what I've noticed, the cancel has to be very concise. You have to do d,b. Any extra inputs and even mashing d,b over and over again makes it so Grundy does the whole grab. I haven't been able to do a qcb, hcf type of motion to have an "option select" to counter cross ups.

I don't really understand what you guys are getting into about cleaver and dead air being too punishable. I think they're ok the way they are, and I really don't use reg cleaver as a mix-up anyway since EX Cleaver is + on block and gives a big combo if people are jumping. Even though there are certain characters that can beat the grab/ex cleaver 50/50.

 

[Asodimazze]

Even though there are certain characters that can beat the grab/ex cleaver 50/50.

Any character can beat the grab -ex cleaver 50-50 with MB B3/F3

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

Cleaver spin is only effective on a back jump forward jumps and neutral jumps you can actually avoid it. Thats nto a good option. dead air can't be jumped out of a block string.

I wasn't aware of the fact that neutral jump beats it. No ones ever done that. If so it saddens me that the only thing he has to stop jumping his a full combo punishable move that throws the enemy away from him. *sigh*

*edit* Hold on, I could swear that I've hit neutral jumping opponents with cleaver spin. Let me check that when I get home.

FYI I played REO last night and I did cleaver spin and he blocked it and never once punished it. Guess that means REO is a terrible player right?

Yes, if what you're saying is true REO is terrible at the match-up. Even online casuals punish regular cleaver spin on block.

And wow you brought up king? You really don't know who I am. King is a terrible example anyway. most of the characters you listed don't have a situation they can create like grundy and don't have an anti air option like that even though as I said the cleaver really isn't a good anti air option in that situaton either. Zangiefs ultra is the closest option which leaves him full combo punishable. King doesn't need to stop jumping its tekken and as one of the pioneers of high level king play I wouldn't call him a grappler in the same sense as the other characters you mention.

I'm referring to SFxT. It's the only example that makes sense in our context. My bad, I'll be more specific next time.
All of those characters have options similar to what Grundy can create and most of them have godlike options to stop jumping. I play them.

I play grapplers through a wide variety of fighting games. I don't mean to sound rude but I think I know more about them than you do. It is not the grappler design to have all they're good mix-up options be full combo punishable. Hence why I see no reason for Grundy's to be -20+ on block.

 

[ll Nooby ll]

Any character can beat the grab -ex cleaver 50-50 with MB B3/F3

Exactly, that's when you have to start using walking corpse.

 

[doubleperfect]

i think alot of you guys are missing the point as to what me and poweredbyprotein are saying. sure the move should be punishable, by all means we did not say it should be safe. i got a small scene here in nevada that are not top players and even them can recognize that its punishable on block (clever spin).

if reo cant react to the move its due to not knowing the frames. or havent played much grundy, so its NOT that hes bad its just that it hasnt register in his mind yet. so please dont use names of top players unless they know everything from each character in terms of frame data

imo it should be around -9~12 on block, you can still get a full combo from the majority of the cast with this amount of disavantage and still punish on reaction once you know the frame data on a blocked clever

 

[1truking]

I wasn't aware of the fact that neutral jump beats it. No ones ever done that. If so it saddens me that the only thing he has to stop jumping his a full combo punishable move that throws the enemy away from him. *sigh*

*edit* Hold on, I could swear that I've hit neutral jumping opponents with cleaver spin. Let me check that when I get home.



Yes, if what you're saying is true REO is terrible at the match-up. Even online casuals punish regular cleaver spin on block.


I'm referring to SFxT. It's the only example that makes sense in our context. My bad, I'll be more specific next time.
All of those characters have options similar to what Grundy can create and most of them have godlike options to stop jumping. I play them.

I play grapplers through a wide variety of fighting games. I don't mean to sound rude but I think I know more about them than you do. It is not the grappler design to have all they're good mix-up options be full combo punishable. Hence why I see no reason for Grundy's to be -20+ on block.

I don't mean to sound rude either but I've been a high level tournament player since 97 across multiple games and I generally play grapplers myself. my name was given to me by Valle because of the fact that I was literally the only good king player in the country at the time. I was dominant force with zangief on marvel too. I've got a couple published books. Friends with top players on several current games and getting back into the competitive scene sparring with top players on this that I know from being a top player on MK 8. I've got a resume that few can beat.

I think his design fits with the character. Sure I'd love it if it was changed but I don't care if I have to work harder to win with him compared to top tiers. Then again i'll likely be rocking higher tier characters and have grundy for people I know can't handle the matchup if/when I get back to top tournament form.

I tested it out before and people jumping forward avoiding the cleaver. Neutral Jump I think avoided it but it might depend on the character. but as was pointed out b3 universally stuffs all those setups well haven't tried bf2 vs b3.

Anyway patch notes say walking corpse has a better hit box now. I'm wondering if that might allow him to throw people in unthrowable frame situations or if it just means he actually reaches further. The latter seems odd because I already know the range extends beyond his finger tips. I've had people warp into my hands when I did a WC more times than I can count.

 

[Asodimazze]

Exactly, that's when you have to start using walking corpse.

Sadly, every mb b3/f3 is also throw immune.
They can simply hold b3/f3 if the see wc and punish everytime

 

[fr stack]

for WCC this may or may not help but i do dbdb or dbdf all times the first db is so i can see which way they jumped once u get the motion down its not that bad , agree with having problems against neutral jumps , also try WCC air grab

 

[ll Nooby ll]

Sadly, every mb b3/f3 is also throw immune.
They can simply hold b3/f3 if the see wc and punish everytime

You can cancel it, and your safe (or disadvantage since most are +). Or you can go into another walking corpse again.
This only applies if the do a regular B3/F3 and have no meter (this beats trait) but B3/F3 can't be thrown only on startup.

 

[Asodimazze]

You can cancel it, and your safe (or disadvantage since most are +). Or you can go into another walking corpse again.
This only applies if the do a regular B3/F3 and have no meter (this beats trait) but B3/F3 can't be thrown only on startup.

You can't cancel WC and block the B3 if the opponent knows what he is doing.
WC can be cancelled only on a precise moment, and in that instant Grundy is punishable...there is nothing you can do after a string to beat the opponent MB B3, every option Grundy has is nullified.

 

[ll Nooby ll]

You can't cancel WC and block the B3 if the opponent knows what he is doing.
WC can be cancelled only on a precise moment, and in that instant Grundy is punishable...there is nothing you can do after a string to beat the opponent MB B3, every option Grundy has is nullified.

Firstly there's a point that Grundy can to start to cancel it, but you can still cancel it a few frames later, so there isn't a one set frame where you have to cancel it. Also no one can punish with there B3/F3 if you cancel your WC and block. It might not be possible to armor again against the more faster bounces, but you can never be punished.

Sure his options are limited when someone has meter, but if they waste a bar to have nothing come of it except some frame advantage which grundy can armor through most follow ups. Then thats a good trade for Grundy especially since now they have no meter to use in their gameplan, or to clash Grundy's damaging combos.

 

[PoweredbyProtein]

I don't mean to sound rude either but I've been a high level tournament player since 97 across multiple games and I generally play grapplers myself. my name was given to me by Valle because of the fact that I was literally the only good king player in the country at the time. I was dominant force with zangief on marvel too. I've got a couple published books. Friends with top players on several current games and getting back into the competitive scene sparring with top players on this that I know from being a top player on MK 8. I've got a resume that few can beat.

Um okay, that has nothing to do with playing more grapplers than I have, and comparing our wangs does nothing. The fact is that it's not the grappler design to have all their options be full combo punishable.

I think his design fits with the character. Sure I'd love it if it was changed but I don't care if I have to work harder to win with him compared to top tiers. Then again i'll likely be rocking higher tier characters and have grundy for people I know can't handle the matchup if/when I get back to top tournament form.

It doesn't.
Working harder shouldn't come from the fact that everytime our opponent guess right we get full combo punished no matter what option we use. It's high risk for moderate reward.

I tested it out before and people jumping forward avoiding the cleaver. Neutral Jump I think avoided it but it might depend on the character. but as was pointed out b3 universally stuffs all those setups well haven't tried bf2 vs b3.

:v And with this option opponents have you still think it's fine for all grundy's mix-up options to be full combo punishable?

The latter seems odd because I already know the range extends beyond his finger tips. I've had people warp into my hands when I did a WC more times than I can count.

Same, I really can't see how this will help him too much.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

The bigger hitbox i'm assuming will negate the immune moves.

So..... stuff like Black Adam's bullshit strings and b3/f3 will simply get thrown now.