Grabs Tech?

[Mgt2]

Wait so escaping Throws are a 50/50 guess?

I am asking because I can't face Human and CPU hardly grabs me. Also no Psn . >.<

 

[Sinister_M]

i think 'l stick to mashing both buttons

 

[Mgt2]

So it is mashing buttons right?

 

[Jim]

How unsafe is flip stance? My thought is when you expect a throw just push both kicks. If you time it right you tech the throw and if not you flip stance.

 

[DrDogg]

It's impossible to tell which throw is coming, and there are two breaks, so you have to guess. In addition, the throw break window is very short. If you're holding block, you have to release before you can break, which shortens the window even more. From my experience, throws are just about guaranteed against a blocking opponent. You have to have very good reactions and guess right to break a grab.

 

[Mgt2]

It's impossible to tell which throw is coming, and there are two breaks, so you have to guess. In addition, the throw break window is very short. If you're holding block, you have to release before you can break, which shortens the window even more. From my experience, throws are just about guaranteed against a blocking opponent. You have to have very good reactions and guess right to break a grab.

That is a huge gamble from NRS . Anyone can abuse this grab system. I though the grab system here works like SSF4.

 

[Juggs]

All you have to do is time and simultaneously and you'll break everytime no matter which grab it is. You can't really mash, you just have to time it right. So, it's not a guess.

 

[Mgt2]

All you have to do is time and simultaneously and you'll break everytime no matter which grab it is. You can't really mash, you just have to time it right. So, it's not a guess.

Thank you, I was confused about it. The idea of guessing the input to counter sounds a pain.

 

[xZEPPELIx]

All you have to do is time and simultaneously and you'll break everytime no matter which grab it is. You can't really mash, you just have to time it right. So, it's not a guess.

i have yet to be able to break a forward throw with that method. works for a neutral throw everytime but never for a forward throw unless i press bk a lil earlier than the fk.

 

[Arcade-Fever]

i have yet to be able to break a forward throw with that method. works for a neutral throw everytime but never for a forward throw unless i press bk a lil earlier than the fk.

Well, the only other way is do the break depending on your position, most of the time people will attempt to lock you in a corner so you can assume they will use the throw that will leave you there.

 

[Mgt2]

i have yet to be able to break a forward throw with that method. works for a neutral throw everytime but never for a forward throw unless i press bk a lil earlier than the fk.

hmm I need more people posting in this thread.

 

[Sinister_M]

Are you trying to say the stance button is the ultimate tech button? WTF?

 

[Juggs]

i have yet to be able to break a forward throw with that method. works for a neutral throw everytime but never for a forward throw unless i press bk a lil earlier than the fk.

Yeah, was testing it in training mode. Training mode is ass.

 

[Mgt2]

Yeah, was testing it in training mode. Training mode is ass.

So it is a guess game? hmm Throws are too good in this game then.

 

[DrDogg]

So it is a guess game? hmm Throws are too good in this game then.

^This!

Defense in this game is extremely low priority. It's definitely the thing I dislike the most about MK9. Very few combos are unsafe, some even give you adv (a safe launcher that gives you adv on block... WTF?!). To top it off, if you want to play defensively and block, not only are you building the opponent's meter, but they basically get a free throw.

Yes, you can technically release block and still have time "guess" your throw break, but the window is already fairly small as it is, when you factor in the need to release block, it becomes even shorter. I would go as far as to say that a throw is almost guaranteed if the opponent is blocking. I have yet to be able to break a throw on reaction when I'm holding block when I see the throw... even when I know which throw is coming.

 

[Exodus.]

Well, the only other way is do the break depending on your position, most of the time people will attempt to lock you in a corner so you can assume they will use the throw that will leave you there.

Its a guess but normally do this and you will be okay. Be aware of ur surroundings and tech the throw that leads you into the corner. and if your opponent throws you out of the corner then congrats, you got them in the corner.

 

[Ribx]

Well, the only other way is do the break depending on your position, most of the time people will attempt to lock you in a corner so you can assume they will use the throw that will leave you there.

This.

Its a guess but normally do this and you will be okay. Be aware of ur surroundings and tech the throw that leads you into the corner. and if your opponent throws you out of the corner then congrats, you got them in the corner.

This.




In other words.

If you're cornered break with 2. If you're facing the corner, and a throw will leave you cornered, break with 1.
That's the rule of thumb.

If you're about to die, even a tech throw will probably kill you (you take damage from teching, remember that). If you have, say, 12% health, then it is indeed a 50/50 situation.
Just don't get into that situation. Even in Chess, such a balanced game, if you make mistakes, you lose pieces. If you lose too many, you get into a situation where your chances to win are slim. Again: be pre-emptive and avoid being thrown.

 

[DrDogg]

If you're cornered break with 2. If you're facing the corner, and a throw will leave you cornered, break with 1.
That's the rule of thumb.

If you're about to die, even a tech throw will probably kill you (you take damage from teching, remember that). If you have, say, 12% health, then it is indeed a 50/50 situation.
Just don't get into that situation. Even in Chess, such a balanced game, if you make mistakes, you lose pieces. If you lose too many, you get into a situation where your chances to win are slim. Again: be pre-emptive and avoid being thrown.

This is easy to say in theory, but it just doesn't work like that in high-level play. Throws are too good right now, and while having the corner positioning is important, throw damage and the potential resulting oki are also important. I would rather land a throw and get the follow up oki, than have it broken just because I'm attempting to keep my opponent in the corner. Not to mention, just going against the "rule" one time, you then make the opponent guess if you'll do it again.

It's also very difficult to escape a throw situation. After a blocked jump punch a throw is free. During many block strings, a throw is free. In fact, pretty much any time you're blocking, a throw is free. And the risk of releasing your guard in an attempt to guess and avoid a throw, is just too high.

NRS needs to allow you to break while holding block. With that slight change, I think the throw system would be fine. The way it is now, throws are too good.

 

[lobo]

so at first i mashed buttons to break throws...then i read this thread and used fk/bk...then i read some more and used 3+4...now i am still reading it and learning to use 1 or 2? seriously this thread will tell you to use every single attack button to break throws, or even a combination of two. is it really a 25% chance guessing game? wtf is going on?

it is official. i have no fucking clue what you guys are talking about and zero idea how to break throws in this game. awesome.

looks like it is back to mashing everything.

edit...ok so i watched SEB's video. great video BTW. i'd recommend watching that and completely disregarding the rest of this thread. D:

 

[Synraii]

It could be worse, VF has that covered =P

 

[Ribx]

This is easy to say in theory, but it just doesn't work like that in high-level play. Throws are too good right now, and while having the corner positioning is important, throw damage and the potential resulting oki are also important. I would rather land a throw and get the follow up oki, than have it broken just because I'm attempting to keep my opponent in the corner. Not to mention, just going against the "rule" one time, you then make the opponent guess if you'll do it again.

It's also very difficult to escape a throw situation. After a blocked jump punch a throw is free. During many block strings, a throw is free. In fact, pretty much any time you're blocking, a throw is free. And the risk of releasing your guard in an attempt to guess and avoid a throw, is just too high.

NRS needs to allow you to break while holding block. With that slight change, I think the throw system would be fine. The way it is now, throws are too good.

I rarely get thrown while playing because... Well...

Here's the thing: the way I see it, NRS introduced these two types of throw escapes for a very simple reason, which you already know: promoting offense. But how is it related? I'm not talking about the 50/50, or "not being able to tech while blocking". That's not the reason why.

The reason is that half the time you'll end up teching a throw if you're attacking. You'll notice that throws can be teched with every single attack button. Not one particular button, and not the throw button. You tech by pressing any of the 4 buttons.

Easy translation: half the time you try to attack, you tech.


And a throw isn't "free" in any situation. It can always be teched, even if you can't jump, nor attack. Get used to pressing a button after blocking a DJP. I have, and it's been working wonders.

Also, be more aggressive. I've been seeing matches and all I see is people blocking CONSTANTLY. Even when they're not under any threat. Just yesterday, watching Bone with his Ermac constantly blocking instead of jumping over smoke bombs...
Like Tom said: you can deny zoning for the most part if you just Dash>Block. Obviously it's not the end-all-be-all solution to zoning, but there's no reason to block like crazy all the time when you can simply take a risk and attack. Use those armor EX moves. Use those safe xrays. Take a risk and spend a breaker (bad idea, but hey...).

I love they way throws are right now. I can land mine everytime someone turtles. And against a friend of mine who plays kabal, I can never push him into the corner with throws (unless I'm playing Jax; choosing sides: great), since he already knows which way I'll throw him. I'm forced to forfeit my positioning if I want to throw him.


If they make it 1 input for techs, or just add in multiple throw escapes (or allow teching while blocking), I won't "hate it", but it'll lose some of the flair I've been enjoying with guessing games and punishing defensive behaviour.

Preferences I guess.


I don't deny what you said. It's THERE, true. But I like what you dislike in terms of the 50/50s, and I don't consider throws necessarily overpowered.

It could be worse, VF has that covered =P

VF has multiple throw escapes. If you're on point, you can escape any single throw. And they actually made it easier in the last few revisions of Final Showdown.

 

[Porkchopexpress]

The reason Bone was blocking was to prevent smokes projectile and force smoke to come to him. Its like chasing a ghost. Smoke has alot of tools,but KrazieBone nulified a few by blocking.

 

[Ribx]

The reason Bone was blocking was to prevent smokes projectile and force smoke to come to him. Its like chasing a ghost. Smoke has alot of tools,but KrazieBone nulified a few by blocking.

Risking the off-topic here but he did counter Smoke Bombs after a while with jump ins. He was constantly blocking vs Smoke Bombs at first simply because he was frozen. He was either wondering about a gameplan, or just waiting for something else.

As soon as he started getting more aggressive, everything changed.
Actually, that seems to be the rule in MK9. Attack. If you're "right" more often, you win.

 

[DrDogg]

*snip from throw stuff*

You play risky, that's fine. I do not. I play as safe as I possibly can. I shouldn't be at a disadvantage because I want solid defense.

It's very easy to play offense. I don't think any high-level player will say offense is harder than defense. What NRS has done with the current throw system is give the advantage to the offensive player, making offense easier than it needs to be, and defense very difficult.

Now when I said throws are free, I simply mean they're difficult to escape in the situations I described. After I block a jump punch, I could mash out an attack, but then if the opponent doesn't throw, I may eat a 50% combo. If you mashed out an attack every time I jumped in on you, I'd only need two blocked jump punches to take a round. At the very least, I'd need ~9 throws to take a round. I'll take 9 throws over two wrong guesses any day.

I don't care if there are multiple throw breaks. Most 3D games have multiple throw breaks and I come from a 3D background. All I want is the ability to break while holding block. I don't think that would change your risky game plan hardly at all, but it would allow me to play much better defense... something this game is sorely lacking.

You've already got a 50/50 throw mixup, chip damage on everything, safe launchers, launchers that give adv on block, safe overheads, safe lows, projectiles that can lead to 50% or more, virtually safe and almost instant teleports, a plethora of attacks with armor or super armor, and numerous other things that greatly benefit the offensive player. I see no harm in NRS throwing defensive players a bone here.

VF has multiple throw escapes. If you're on point, you can escape any single throw. And they actually made it easier in the last few revisions of Final Showdown.

I don't know many VF players that can buffer every throw break, but I haven't paid much attention to the newer revisions since none of my local arcades have VF5 machines. Most high-level VF players only buffer 3 or 4 breaks for the most damaging throw options.

 

[Ribx]

You play risky, that's fine. I do not. I play as safe as I possibly can. I shouldn't be at a disadvantage because I want solid defense.

It's very easy to play offense. I don't think any high-level player will say offense is harder than defense. What NRS has done with the current throw system is give the advantage to the offensive player, making offense easier than it needs to be, and defense very difficult.

Now when I said throws are free, I simply mean they're difficult to escape in the situations I described. After I block a jump punch, I could mash out an attack, but then if the opponent doesn't throw, I may eat a 50% combo. If you mashed out an attack every time I jumped in on you, I'd only need two blocked jump punches to take a round. At the very least, I'd need ~9 throws to take a round. I'll take 9 throws over two wrong guesses any day.

I don't care if there are multiple throw breaks. Most 3D games have multiple throw breaks and I come from a 3D background. All I want is the ability to break while holding block. I don't think that would change your risky game plan hardly at all, but it would allow me to play much better defense... something this game is sorely lacking.

You've already got a 50/50 throw mixup, chip damage on everything, safe launchers, launchers that give adv on block, safe overheads, safe lows, projectiles that can lead to 50% or more, virtually safe and almost instant teleports, a plethora of attacks with armor or super armor, and numerous other things that greatly benefit the offensive player. I see no harm in NRS throwing defensive players a bone here.



I don't know many VF players that can buffer every throw break, but I haven't paid much attention to the newer revisions since none of my local arcades have VF5 machines. Most high-level VF players only buffer 3 or 4 breaks for the most damaging throw options.

I play safely in every other game.

I learned to have a complete different playstyle for MK9. Which is why several people I know think the game "sucks", and others have learned to love it (like me). To be honest, playing defensively is easier than being offensive while reading your opponent.

Simply being offensive in a random way, is not even "easier". That's just being careless and will get you a loss. But being offensive in a way that gives 0 chance for your opponent (example: Tokido, or even Vangief, if we go by "losing health but compensating somehow") to counterattack? That's much harder than simply playing defensively.

What would be harder in a SF environment? Guile vs Guile or Cammy vs Cammy?
Patience is required in the first.
But you need ridiculous reading skills for the second.

And matchup knowledge also applies in MK.

The whole issue people have with the Techs right now, is because they want to be blocking. The only solution is to avoid being in a state where you're blocking. There's absolutely no way around that one other than not blocking in the first place. Also: learning to anti-air instead of blocking air moves cuts the chance that one will be thrown by half. Again, depends on the character. Much easier to pull that off with Noob/Jax/Liu/Cage, than it is with, say... Scorpion (at least I find his uppercut to be slightly hard to time for AA).

Again, preferences. You like it safe. So do I, but not in MK. I like what they did with the game.