Frames Vs. Mu's: which will be more of a b*tch to learn in MKX?

[VenomX-90]

With MKX 2 month's away, and how the variations are in the game there will be alot to cover for each charcter, so which will you think will be a b*tch to learn? I mean I will be on this game more often than Destiny when it coms out but I'll probably keep it 50/50. Its a serious question though.

 

[SaltShaker]

The MU's I'd say.

You'll learn what frames your characters thrive at with play, but MU's will take forever to learn. If a variation can change how a MU is played, then exposure to all MU's in the game at a consistent basis may be impossible.

 

[Decay]

Matchups are going to insane to learn but I'm looking forward to it. It'll give the game lots of depth and a long life of high level play, unless of course the game is completely broken

 

[RoboCop]

You can learn frames on your own in practice mode, but you can't learn MUs without fighting quality players. So definitely MUs. No contest.

 

[Rice]

Matchups.

There are so many that its definitely going to be fun.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

well learning frames is part of learning matchups so....

 

[Titanman_88]

Id say the MUs. But both will be a challenging pain in the arse that Im looking forward to. I love numbers so it will be fun!

 

[Juggs]

You don't really learn frames, you memorize them.

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

What @AVN PTH jonnitti said. You need to know the frames to learn matchups.

 

[Awsumpossm]

Frame data is available from the pause menu. Matchup info is not

 

[Vagrant]

I'm going to pass on this oppurtunity to be a smart ass. I'll even post something semi productive.

One of the bigger mistakes I made when I started to really get into the technical aspects of fighting games was I put too much emphasis on the numbers of frames. If you go into the game trying to memorize the exact number value of blockstun for every move in the game...... You're gonna have a bad time.

Classify them as neutral, slight neg, slight pos, big neg, big pos.

Now depending on what the engine has to offer and what universal tools the game has to offer the characters (like armor or backdashes or how quick most quick pokes are, or jumps or whatever) then you can come up with a sort of gameplan for each of the 5 frame situations and you can adjust to these situations on the go even if you're just learning a matchup.

If you use this method when learning matchups. Frames become much less daunting of a task and you can just ask "hey are you plus on that?" and they can answer "yeah slightly" or "yeah it's hella plus frames" and you can adjust on the fly. If you want to go back later and look at exact numbers to maybe come up with a better option for it, then cool. But you don't have to drown yourself in frame data to learn a matchup.

Also just realized I didn't really answer the question in the OP but oh well. Thug life.....

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I'm going to pass on this oppurtunity to be a smart ass. I'll even post something semi productive.

One of the bigger mistakes I made when I started to really get into the technical aspects of fighting games was I put too much emphasis on the numbers of frames. If you go into the game trying to memorize the exact number value of blockstun for every move in the game...... You're gonna have a bad time.

Classify them as neutral, slight neg, slight pos, big neg, big pos.

Now depending on what the engine has to offer and what universal tools the game has to offer the characters (like armor or backdashes or how quick most quick pokes are, or jumps or whatever) then you can come up with a sort of gameplan for each of the 5 frame situations and you can adjust to these situations on the go even if you're just learning a matchup.

If you use this method when learning matchups. Frames become much less daunting of a task and you can just ask "hey are you plus on that?" and they can answer "yeah slightly" or "yeah it's hella plus frames" and you can adjust on the fly. If you want to go back later and look at exact numbers to maybe come up with a better option for it, then cool. But you don't have to drown yourself in frame data to learn a matchup.

Also just realized I didn't really answer the question in the OP but oh well. Thug life.....

This could be partially true, but I still think you need to have a big category of things you know they exact frame data for. You need to know exact frames for:

-Your key footsie tools
-Everyone else's main footsie tool/pressure tool
-Your key punishers, and other characters'
-Your pokes
-Other people's pokes (within say, a margin of error 1-2 frames)

'Slightly negative" isn't enough to tell you whether you can beat out your opponent's 7-frame poke in neutral, or whether your main 10-frame punisher can punish someone else's 8 or 11 frame footsie tool. Not knowing things like that will get you killed.

So it's not to say "you need to know the exact frame data for every move and string in the game at Week 2", but for specific true, basic critical matchup tools you should be doing the math and not just guessing based on feel.

 

[chores]

You can learn frames on your own in practice mode, but you can't learn MUs without fighting quality players. So definitely MUs. No contest.

yep exactly thats like saying 'what will be harder to learn, memorizing the lyrics or how to sing the song?' -- the lyrics are a large part of learning to sing the song

This could be partially true, but I still think you need to have a big category of things you know they exact frame data for. You need to know exact frames for:

-Your key footsie tools
-Everyone else's main footsie tool/pressure tool
-Your key punishers, and other characters'
-Your pokes
-Other people's pokes (within say, a margin of error 1-2 frames)

'Slightly negative" isn't enough to tell you whether you can beat out your opponent's 7-frame poke in neutral, or whether your main 10-frame punisher can punish someone else's 8 or 11 frame footsie tool. Not knowing things like that will get you killed.

So it's not to say "you need to know the exact frame data for every move in the game", but for specific true, basic key matchup tools you should be doing the math and not just guessing based on feel.

i agree, the exact number are important. the only generalization thats acceptable is at large frame numbers. like in injustice if i saw that a move was -20 or more i didnt care to know the exact number. i just knew to unload max dmg combo.

 

[Eddy Wang]

You can't properly learn Matchups without memorizing frame data.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

Frame data is available from the pause menu. Matchup info is not

yeah but its not like you can pause the game in the middle of a match to look up frames. you gotta know that shit when you come in. doesnt matter if its in the game or some other reference like a strategy guide or some shit

 

[Scott The Scot]

Huh!? I thought they both coincide with each other...

I know the frames of my characters moves, really just the important stuff. I do look at how many frames something is on advantage or disadvantage if I block it and a lot of the time the number sticks to my brain. Most of the time I just know if I can punish or interrupt a particular special move/string then do it because I studied the frame data. I don't memorise every number intentionally, I over time when I refer myself to it I subconciously know what it is

 

[Vagrant]

This could be partially true, but I still think you need to have a big category of things you know they exact frame data for. You need to know exact frames for:

-Your key footsie tools
-Everyone else's main footsie tool/pressure tool
-Your key punishers, and other characters'
-Your pokes
-Other people's pokes (within say, a margin of error 1-2 frames)

'Slightly negative" isn't enough to tell you whether you can beat out your opponent's 7-frame poke in neutral, or whether your main 10-frame punisher can punish someone else's 8 or 11 frame footsie tool. Not knowing things like that will get you killed.

So it's not to say "you need to know the exact frame data for every move and string in the game at Week 2", but for specific true, basic critical matchup tools you should be doing the math and not just guessing based on feel.

Right obviously exact knowledge is ideal. I just find I often forget exact frames when I'm trying to learn so many matchups for my character so I have an easier time recognizing situations. Like I said, feel free to go back after or before and study the exact numbers. But if ____ character rep walks into the arcade and you want some MU experience but don't know everything about their character off hand, a looser method will work to still keep you competitive in the matchup and you'll still learn stuff at the same time.

 

[DarthArma]

 

[chores]

 

[Awsumpossm]

yeah but its not like you can pause the game in the middle of a match to look up frames. you gotta know that shit when you come in. doesnt matter if its in the game or some other reference like a strategy guide or some shit

That's true.

Still, the question asks "which will be more of a bitch to learn?", not "which will be more of a bitch to learn, assuming you're in a tournament match RIGHT NOW and haven't done any studying or practice whatsoever?"

 

[Compbros]

Matchups, for each character you have to know their base stuff and then add a couple specials/strings of frame data depending on the variation. When it comes to matchups there are 9 possible matchups you need to know per character.

 

[MKF30]

I look at it this way, cant worry about all the technical bs. Just get an idea from experience, experimentation and practice of both frames, match ups etc.

Whats safe, whats not etc fuck the numbers or exact numbers. Thats the kind of stuff that turns people off or annoys them with confusion.

I look at this topic like baseball. Sometimes you cant go by 'just numbers, technical shit' etc and just see the ball, hit the ball. Know what I mean?

 

[SGX]

I would say matchups, because you can learn frames at any time whether or not you're playing the game or have competition at that moment.
Also, I think the beauty of MK9 was that sometimes the game didn't care about frames, it would just pick and choose which attack won, lol.

 

[VenomX-90]

I look at it this way, cant worry about all the technical bs. Just get an idea from experience, experimentation and practice of both frames, match ups etc.

Whats safe, whats not etc fuck the numbers or exact numbers. Thats the kind of stuff that turns people off or annoys them with confusion.

I look at this topic like baseball. Sometimes you cant go by 'just numbers, technical shit' etc and just see the ball, hit the ball. Know what I mean?

Pretty much.

 

[VenomX-90]

Huh!? I thought they both coincide with each other...

I know the frames of my characters moves, really just the important stuff. I do look at how many frames something is on advantage or disadvantage if I block it and a lot of the time the number sticks to my brain. Most of the time I just know if I can punish or interrupt a particular special move/string then do it because I studied the frame data. I don't memorise every number intentionally, I over time when I refer myself to it I subconciously know what it is

I watch alot of combo vids and go from there to see whats best in each move.