Frame Data in MK 11

[kabelfritz]

i already see complaints about frame data in mk11 and wanna make a point against that. yes some characters apparently have poop frame data, like raiden. he literally cant do anything actively.

BUT:

• in mk 11, pushbacks, ranges and actual animations have a meaning bigger than in any mk before. you cant judge a move by its frame data without knowing its other properties.
• many things that are + either push far away or have a gap, which leads to...
• FLAWLESS BLOCK! you can neither play nor understand the game if you have not mastered this mechanic. there are probably block infinites with a single string in the game if you cant flawless block, and it opens up a whole new layer of mindgames. frame data cannot be judged without understanding this mechanic and its implications.
• to a degree this applies to all general mechanics. they have never been so dedicated to specific purposes in any mk before. just play through the amazing tutorial section to see.

for now, please take that into account before judging some characters' frame data, because on paper there is no discussion that some are poop and others are op. but you havent read it the mk 11 way.

 

[M.D.]

Kitana ground ass - 3/4 screen, MID, -23 but with HUGE pushback, barely punishable.
Cage shadow kick - 3/4 screen (YES ITS NOT FULLSCREEN), HIGH, -23, IMMENSELY punishable by blocking or ducking FULL COMBO with ANYONE.

Balanced my ass.

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

Kitana ground ass - 3/4 screen, MID, -23 but with HUGE pushback, barely punishable.
Cage shadow kick - 3/4 screen (YES ITS NOT FULLSCREEN), HIGH, -23, IMMENSELY punishable by blocking or ducking FULL COMBO with ANYONE.

Balanced my ass.

Walked right into that one, lol

 

[DragonofDadashov24]

I never played beta so I’m curios if perfect block is really difficult to pull on reaction.

 

[kabelfritz]

I never played beta so I’m curios if perfect block is really difficult to pull on reaction.

its easier that youd think if you got the hang of it.

 

[SaltShaker]

Ok @kabelfritz I'll play along because I'm looking for anyone to convince me.

Cetrion has-

-Boulder Toss is 48 frames of startup.
-Boulder Shatter (orb) is 62 frames startup.
-Vine Grab is 28F and -35 on block.
-Earthquake and Water Geyser are -20 on block.
-Fire Beam is full combo punishable.
-Her advancing mid is full combo punishable.
-Absorb ender is -15 on block.
-Boulder Delay takes a full D Bar to hold (lol)
-All strings and pokes are negative.


Reassure me. Let me know that all of this is irrelevant compared to other characters in the game. Please. I need it. The few remaining who haven't already jumped ship need it.

 

[SaSSolino]

FLAWLESS BLOCK! you can neither play nor understand the game if you have not mastered this mechanic. there are probably block infinites with a single string in the game if you cant flawless block, and it opens up a whole new layer of mindgames. frame data cannot be judged without understanding this mechanic and its implications.

Are you for real? That's pretty fucked to be honest.

 

[colby4898]

Kitana ground ass - 3/4 screen, MID, -23 but with HUGE pushback, barely punishable.
Cage shadow kick - 3/4 screen (YES ITS NOT FULLSCREEN), HIGH, -23, IMMENSELY punishable by blocking or ducking FULL COMBO with ANYONE.

Balanced my ass.

Wha that got to do with balance? Unless all there moves are also very similar it’s irrelevant that these two similar moves have different properties.

 

[kabelfritz]

Are you for real? That's pretty fucked to be honest.

if you mean the block infinite thing, i have not tested it but from just playing its an impression there might be some. so NO, its NOT confirmed real. but flawless block still opens a whole different game under pressure and you need it.

 

[kabelfritz]

Ok @kabelfritz I'll play along because I'm looking for anyone to convince me.

Cetrion has-

-Boulder Toss is 48 frames of startup.
-Boulder Shatter (orb) is 62 frames startup.
-Vine Grab is 28F and -35 on block.
-Earthquake and Water Geyser are -20 on block.
-Fire Beam is full combo punishable.
-Her advancing mid is full combo punishable.
-Absorb ender is -15 on block.
-Boulder Delay takes a full D Bar to hold (lol)
-All strings and pokes are negative.


Reassure me. Let me know that all of this is irrelevant compared to other characters in the game. Please. I need it. The few remaining who haven't already jumped ship need it.

i havent touched cetrion, so generally speaking:

only thing i can tell you is check how "good" the other guys' frame data really is, not just in theory, but in the mk11 environment. do their plus frames really win them games or is there more to it? how many have gaps, how many are highs, how many push back too far for follow up, are follow-ups unsafe, and how does FB change things? the impression i get when i go through the movelists is that there is a lot of thought behind everything.

i can tell you about raiden, his best string is -6. he can maintain zero up close pressure, his zoning is situational and his whiff punishers unsafe. yet it is in his toolset that he can not only win but dominate when he aims for full screen play with occasinal explosions and an informed use of FB under pressure.

 

[SaltShaker]

i havent touched cetrion, so generally speaking:

only thing i can tell you is check how "good" the other guys' frame data really is, not just in theory, but in the mk11 environment. do their plus frames really win them games or is there more to it? how many have gaps, how many are highs, how many push back too far for follow up, and how does FB change things? the impression i get when i go through the movelists is that there is a lot of thought behind everything.

i can tell you about raiden, his best string is -6. he can maintain zero up close pressure, his zoning is situational and his whiff punishers unsafe. yet it is in his toolset that he can not only win but dominate when he aims for full screen play with occasinal explosions and an informed use of FB under pressure.

From what I've seen at least Raiden seems fine in relation to the cast, so I guess that's what you're getting at. I think most characters are defined effectively for how they are meant to play, adding in the strengths/weaknesses to balance out. The issue I think is that people got used to "EX +17 on block" type of stuff in MKX so it's a bit of a culture shock for most character forums to see the revised frame data. It makes everyone feel like "wow my character is weak", but everyone is toned down in MK11.

Spoiler

Except Cetrion. This is another level of absurd. BUFF Cetrion.

 

[lionheart21]

i havent touched cetrion, so generally speaking:

only thing i can tell you is check how "good" the other guys' frame data really is, not just in theory, but in the mk11 environment. do their plus frames really win them games or is there more to it? how many have gaps, how many are highs, how many push back too far for follow up, are follow-ups unsafe, and how does FB change things? the impression i get when i go through the movelists is that there is a lot of thought behind everything.

i can tell you about raiden, his best string is -6. he can maintain zero up close pressure, his zoning is situational and his whiff punishers unsafe. yet it is in his toolset that he can not only win but dominate when he aims for full screen play with occasinal explosions and an informed use of FB under pressure.

I've been guilty of that myself. This is a completely different game from the previous games, and it's tough to break out of that mindset.

 

[IceNine]

I've definitely been frustrated looking at people complain about moves being "unsafe" when the reality is that many of them are these huge weapon normals that characters have that you're meant to be using at their maximum range, far outside a character's ability to hit you with any of their faster moves. Big midrange buttons are such a common trend among characters in this game, range and pushback are massively important attributes that aren't quantified on these tables. Please keep this in mind, numbers are important in fighting games but fighting games are definitely not all numbers.

 

[kabelfritz]

From what I've seen at least Raiden seems fine in relation to the cast, so I guess that's what you're getting at. I think most characters are defined effectively for how they are meant to play, adding in the strengths/weaknesses to balance out. The issue I think is that people got used to "EX +17 on block" type of stuff in MKX so it's a bit of a culture shock for most character forums to see the revised frame data. It makes everyone feel like "wow my character is weak", but everyone is toned down in MK11.

Spoiler

Except Cetrion. This is another level of absurd. BUFF Cetrion.

exactly what i mean. but you made me curious, im gonna check her out right now

 

[bumpyface]

i already see complaints about frame data in mk11 and wanna make a point against that. yes some characters apparently have poop frame data, like raiden. he literally cant do anything actively.

BUT:

• in mk 11, pushbacks, ranges and actual animations have a meaning bigger than in any mk before. you cant judge a move by its frame data without knowing its other properties.
• many things that are + either push far away or have a gap, which leads to...
• FLAWLESS BLOCK! you can neither play nor understand the game if you have not mastered this mechanic. there are probably block infinites with a single string in the game if you cant flawless block, and it opens up a whole new layer of mindgames. frame data cannot be judged without understanding this mechanic and its implications.
• to a degree this applies to all general mechanics. they have never been so dedicated to specific purposes in any mk before. just play through the amazing tutorial section to see.

for now, please take that into account before judging some characters' frame data, because on paper there is no discussion that some are poop and others are op. but you havent read it the mk 11 way.

Ok. I just was on EH and was asking about this. I was practincing online with my son and we were testing out frame data. Found a lot of inconsistencies with punishing so I wanted to see what offline was like. In practice mode I discovered Scarlet's D3 is -10 on block. Kung Lao's D3 has a start up of 7 so I figured I should be able to block Scarlet's D3 and punish with Kung Lao's consitently but apparently I was wrong. Still don't feel that the push back from her D3 should keep Lao from punishing it consistently.