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FOXY debates FATE after he attacks Ketchup and Sonic

superbn0va

Apprentice
No matter if you're a casual, in between or a pro player. NRS/WB is known for making bad decisions regarding fighting game mechanics. You can't deny that lol

I agree that you need to invest time to learn the game etc. But dealing with mid or low pressure can be really annoying in MK for casuals and or even in between players. The character stats feel unbalanced.. idk, but i rarely get as frustrated with SF or T as with playing MK.
 
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No matter if you're a casual, in between or a pro player. NRS/WB is known for making bad decisions regarding fighting game mechanics. You can't deny that lol

I agree that you need to invest time to learn the game etc. But dealing with mid or low pressure can be really annoying in MK for casuals and or even in between players. The character stats feel unbalanced.. idk, but i rarely get as frustrated with SF or T as with playing MK.
I promise you if you played Foxy or Sonic or those games Top players, you would be very aggravated. One wiff, one mistake and you eat 70-80% and are carried to corner with little options.
The real difference is the mistakes you make are different in different games but all are mix/50/50's and the other difference is MK has Chip but there's dumb things in others as well. Take amy bottom tier vs JP in SF6 and see if it's frustrating playing against a pro player that utilizes that character to it's full broken potential.
 

CipherJ

Noob
Are Fate and Brazillian Sheep right? Is MK1 bad?

I’m a casual that likes to watch high level play.

Game balance? Cyrax and Top Tiers were broken at launch. I dislike 2 touch games. Johnny was getting less damage per touch, but his unending pressure felt like you get no breathing room after guessing wrong/making a mistake. NRS botched the Cyrax nerf, but competitive variety, while not as good as it could be, is at better place right now.

Interesting play? Yes, MK1 can have great variety because of kameos. If they buff the lesser used kameos things would be far better. It would be easy to see the data at NRS—which kameos are used the least? Make some small buffs to these and see how things pan out. Play test them before release, please. Similarly with characters that have a worse win-loss ratio make small, play-tested buffs to the losers.

Compared to other games? Sometimes watching Tekken can be boring mechanically. I like it tactically, but many characters have similar working moves and unless you know the nuances it can seem samey. In MK the character designs and special moves can really stand out (MK could benefit from some body size diversity though IMO.)
-I remember trying to get into Super SF4 AE after it had been out for awhile. I was decent at Vanilla with Rufus, but my scrubby Makoto got dominated so bad online that I just didn’t want to play anymore. I feel similarly versus the hardcore MK players too. I can’t do anything to them and they blow me up for 40% each touch. Same happened in Tekken7–one of my last matches was versus a great Kazuya player. He just dashed around and I couldn’t touch him. Once he realized I was a scrub he blew me up effortlessly.

Premium Shop? This I feel is a maturity issue. “I want, I want, I want.” Who cares. If you think $10 is too much for a skin don’t buy it. Does Scorpion look stupid in his original skin? Use one of the alternatives that can be earned or pick someone else. Content takes massive resources to make—those NRS employees deserve their jobs. If you think the product is worth it buy or don’t.
 
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LEGEND

YES!
Premium Shop? This I feel is a maturity issue. “I want, I want, I want.” Who cares. If you think $10 is too much for a skin don’t buy it. Does Scorpion look stupid in his original skin? Use one of the alternatives that can be earned or pick someone else. Content takes massive resources to make—those NRS employees deserve their jobs. If you think the product is worth it buy or don’t.
This mirrors my sentiment exactly.

Also, there is actually a ton of colors and costumes that are free. And crystals are given out from playing the game in case you absolutely needed a certain costume for your main or w/e. I think the shop is handled just fine.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
The real difference is the mistakes you make are different in different games but all are mix/50/50's...
Street Fighter 6 has a very diverse meta in which every gameplay style is relevant. In fact, Street Fighter 6 is one of the most diverse fighting games that I have played since Mortal Kombat 9. Every archetype matters and contributes to the meta (i.e., Juri, Ken, and Luke as footsies characters, Cammy as the rush down character, Guile and JP as zoning characters, Marisa as a command grab character, Blanka and Kimberly as vortex characters, etc.)

Mortal Kombat 1, by contrast, is monotone because half the cast does low hat into set play. Another one third throws grenades into unsafe strings that become safe. A couple of characters gain safe armored launchers due to Goro. A handful of characters are actually powered by unique kameos such as Li Mei by Scorpion and Reiko by Tremor. I suppose there is sufficient variety to keep players, including me, satisfied and entertained, but the game ought to have more diversity, some of which, I understand, is not allowed to exist nowadays.

As far as the initial topic of this thread is concerned, why Foxy and Tom would give this fool 15 minutes of fame is beyond me. Casual gamers require as much representation as a "pro football" movement in America or a "pro soccer" movement in Europe. Both sports are played and enjoyed by the overwhelming majority of the population in their respective region. Such is the case with Mortal Kombat and its massive casual fan base. The point is that a fighting game that usually sells around 10-15 million copies does not need a "casual gamer representative". Damn clown show.
 
Street Fighter 6 has a very diverse meta in which every gameplay style is relevant. In fact, Street Fighter 6 is one of the most diverse fighting games that I have played since Mortal Kombat 9. Every archetype matters and contributes to the meta (i.e., Juri, Ken, and Luke as footsies characters, Cammy as the rush down character, Guile and JP as zoning characters, Marisa as a command grab character, Blanka and Kimberly as vortex characters, etc.)

Mortal Kombat 1, by contrast, is monotone because half the cast does low hat into set play. Another one third throws grenades into unsafe strings that become safe. A couple of characters gain safe armored launchers due to Goro. A handful of characters are actually powered by unique kameos such as Li Mei by Scorpion and Reiko by Tremor. I suppose there is sufficient variety to keep players, including me, satisfied and entertained, but the game ought to have more diversity, some of which, I understand, is not allowed to exist nowadays.

As far as the initial topic of this thread is concerned, why Foxy and Tom would give this fool 15 minutes of fame is beyond me. Casual gamers require as much representation as a "pro football" movement in America or a "pro soccer" movement in Europe. Both sports are played and enjoyed by the overwhelming majority of the population in their respective region. Such is the case with Mortal Kombat and its massive casual fan base. The point is that a fighting game that usually sells around 10-15 million copies does not need a "casual gamer representative". Damn clown show.
I completely agree with you and I feel NRS needs to open the doors and allow Zoning, Setplay, Space control and Rushdown to shine together.
There are some characters who are quite good with Tremor, some with Sonya, some with Goro and some with Kano and then a few with Sub Zero Kameo and Reptile and Li Mei with Scorpion.
I think most players just are not exploring the other Kameos because how easy Lao hat is for S Tiers.
If you seen a few pros posting Sets using Johnny Sonya with her Ring being +70 on hit and crazy + on it's giving Johnny 60% meterless and 80% metered and who knows with Hype
Seen some crazy setplay and OS and Damage with Sektor Raiden.

I also agree with what you said about Street Fighter just saying what that's casuals where complaining about was very existent in most fighters like lockdown into 70% corner carry in Street Fighter and JP is a great zoner but always a single button from being in their face as well very powerful character and definitely polarized some matchups.
I think Killer Instinct has a better mechanism for "Breaker" than MK1 but don't think it's possible to have that in MK1.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I think there are a lot of logical fallacies in these arguments.

First, that one Kameo can only be played a certain way. Two recent examples are Stryker and Lao. Tekken Master, for example, uses Stryker in a very different way than the most dedicated zoner in our scene, Sooneo, who mostly uses the Kameo to augment Liu Kang's zoning.

Likewise we saw Foxy mainly use Lao to augment Kitana's zoning and ranged gameplay, rather than for constant setplay.

Second is that every character plays the same. Ashrah is clearly a mid-range space control character, not a rushdown character. Cage is a rushdown character. Kitana and Liu are zoning/footsie characters. Kenshi alternates between midrange space control and puppet rushdown. Sindel embodies the whole spectrum from zoning and space control to setplay. I'm not exactly sure what you'd call Mileena and Omni-Man, but they mainly thrive by capitalizing on their opponents mistakes using ranged counters. Neither is a rushdown character.

There's a reason most Ashrah players use Sareena and it's not because they love setplay. It's because Sareena augments Ashrah's existing space control, gives her yet another option to be oppressive from range, and allows conversions from 70% screen distance with F2.
 

Felipe_Gewehr

Twinktile
I think there are a lot of logical fallacies in these arguments.

First, that one Kameo can only be played a certain way. Two recent examples are Stryker and Lao. Tekken Master, for example, uses Stryker in a very different way than the most dedicated zoner in our scene, Sooneo, so mostly uses the Kameo to augment Liu Kang's Zoning.

Likewise we saw Foxy mainly use Lao to augment Kitana's zoning and ranged gameplay, rather than for constant setplay.

Second is that every character plays the same. Ashrah is clearly a mid-range space control character, not a rushdown character. Cage is a rushdown character. Kitana and Liu are zoning/footsie characters. Kenshi alternates between midrange space control and puppet rushdown. I'm not exactly sure what you'd call Mileena and Omni-Man, but they mainly thrive by capitalizing on their opponents mistakes using ranged counters. Neither is a rushdown character.

There's a reason most Ashrah players use Sareena and it's not because they love setplay. It's because Sareena augment's Ashrah's existing space control, gives her yet another option to be oppressive from range, and allows conversions from 70% screen distance with F2.
I think Mileena is also a foosie character, like Liu and Kitana, except she trades the zoning for 50/50s. Her most effective gameplan is whiff punishing with fast highs, anti-airing and throwing mixups at every chance she can with Lao's hat, being safe if they block it or do damage that loops into itself if the hat hits. Otherwise, she is just "50% combos if you whiff" with Scorpion, or "I'm safe, dont press anything" with Stryker grenades.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
I think there are a lot of logical fallacies in these arguments.
What logical fallacies? Mileena does 50/50 mix ups and set play with low hat. As do around ten other characters, including Omni-Man.

This game has an online tournament every other day. Watch how Hourglass of Rain wins with Mileena.

Yes, there are exceptions to low hat such as Ashrah/Sareena and Li Mei/Scorpion, and I would like to see more of these exceptions.

As I have said before, NRS probably realized that by nerfing low hat, they would nerf one third of the roster and consequently perform one of the biggest tier shifts in modern fighting games. However, since NRS and nerfing go hand in hand like bread and butter, that glorious day will come some day and the outcome will be very entertaining.
 

BRAZILIAN SHEEP

Apprentice
Why aren't you comparing apples to oranges?
Is it, really? Or are you restraining the pool of possibilities just to fit your confortable opinion?
Easy dude....just compare shit to shit....the recent one will be always less shitty so now I have an excuse to defend a company that is basically monetizing my passion and addiction.

It just reinforces what I'm telling: Testyourmght.com, nowadays, with a few exceptions, is a zombie land.
 

BRAZILIAN SHEEP

Apprentice
Are Fate and Brazillian Sheep right? Is MK1 bad?

I’m a casual that likes to watch high level play.

Game balance? Cyrax and Top Tiers were broken at launch. I dislike 2 touch games. Johnny was getting less damage per touch, but his unending pressure felt like you get no breathing room after guessing wrong/making a mistake. NRS botched the Cyrax nerf, but competitive variety, while not as good as it could be, is at better place right now.

Interesting play? Yes, MK1 can have great variety because of kameos. If they buff the lesser used kameos things would be far better. It would be easy to see the data at NRS—which kameos are used the least? Make some small buffs to these and see how things pan out. Play test them before release, please. Similarly with characters that have a worse win-loss ratio make small, play-tested buffs to the losers.

Compared to other games? Sometimes watching Tekken can be boring mechanically. I like it tactically, but many characters have similar working moves and unless you know the nuances it can seem samey. In MK the character designs and special moves can really stand out (MK could benefit from some body size diversity though IMO.)
-I remember trying to get into Super SF4 AE after it had been out for awhile. I was decent at Vanilla with Rufus, but my scrubby Makoto got dominated so bad online that I just didn’t want to play anymore. I feel similarly versus the hardcore MK players too. I can’t do anything to them and they blow me up for 40% each touch. Same happened in Tekken7–one of my last matches was versus a great Kazuya player. He just dashed around and I couldn’t touch him. Once he realized I was a scrub he blew me up effortlessly.

Premium Shop? This I feel is a maturity issue. “I want, I want, I want.” Who cares. If you think $10 is too much for a skin don’t buy it. Does Scorpion look stupid in his original skin? Use one of the alternatives that can be earned or pick someone else. Content takes massive resources to make—those NRS employees deserve their jobs. If you think the product is worth it buy or don’t.
I can't answer this question for you, since all what I'm saying is based on my view and my experience.
However...I invite you to take what honest people say about this game and distinguish influencers that have to pay the bills creating content for WB (biased views), and people that don't need that and tell what they really think.....and take your on conclusions.

But if you want to spare time....man, life is short....WB is implementing Cassino tactics and monetizing our passion releasing an unfinished product, based on a market that is very susceptible for things like this.
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
It just reinforces what I'm telling: Testyourmght.com, nowadays, with a few exceptions, is a zombie land.
TYM is a relic and the only fighting game website of its kind to remain alive, which is admirable in the age of Discord, Reddit, and Twitter, where most of the current FGC interacts. SRK and Tekken Zaibatsu, presently archived, used to be profitable websites not that long ago. Instead of ridiculing the platform, I think that we ought to appreciate what we have. I make this claim as someone who largely agrees with what you have been posting in this thread.
 

BRAZILIAN SHEEP

Apprentice
TYM is a relic and the only fighting game website of its kind to remain alive, which is admirable in the age of Discord, Reddit, and Twitter, where most of the current FGC interacts. SRK and Tekken Zaibatsu, presently archived, used to be profitable websites not that long ago. Instead of ridiculing the platform, I think that we ought to appreciate what we have. I make this claim as someone who largely agrees with what you have been posting in this thread.
Strong language used with pourpose. Since I'm not talking about one person specifically....and I really think that there are very smart people here...."zombie"... I used as a term to describe somebody that is either not seeing some stuff or is asleep. But ok I will not call them zombies anymore....
 
I can't answer this question for you, since all what I'm saying is based on my view and my experience.
However...I invite you to take what honest people say about this game and distinguish influencers that have to pay the bills creating content for WB (biased views), and people that don't need that and tell what they really think.....and take your on conclusions.

But if you want to spare time....man, life is short....WB is implementing Cassino tactics and monetizing our passion releasing an unfinished product, based on a market that is very susceptible for things like this.
It's actually Discovery auditing WB that's causing the micro transactions not just WB. They basically owe 15M copies sold worth. Discovery started this 2 years ago and that's why it's gotten so bad around that time and why WB rushed the game out. They have to come out even.
PigOfTheHut touched in this on FATE debate with Brady

I'll get you the link:
Check out this video "The official stream of Sub-Zero" https://www.twitch.tv/realmktombrady/v/1996272050?sr=a&t=9369s

Their debate starts at 2:35hr mark and it's actually a very respectable talk. Brady calmly proves all FATE guys arguments wrong. I like the respect shown by everyone in this cast

I do disagree with Brady that it's only Casuals getting things nerfed, I've found several semi-pro and pro players complaining about characters including Beta Sub Zero and Kameos and thos characters got nerfed. I think the combination of hoards of Casuals and SALTY pro's asking to GUT characters they don't wanna lab up their options while simultaneously using a polarizing Top 5 char while using a S Tier Kameo paired. It's irony at it's worst.
Pig comes in and explained from an inside POV near the end, the last 30minutes I believe.
 
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CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
What logical fallacies? Mileena does 50/50 mix ups and set play with low hat. As do around ten other characters, including Omni-Man.

This game has an online tournament every other day. Watch how Hourglass of Rain wins with Mileena.
Hourglass spends the majority of time backing up to bait whiff punishes, fishing for something that can be punished by 12, roll, tele, or air roll, or throwing low sai, etc. A lot of times (as in the footage above) low hat is just used to cover 12/f144/a poke, or with the tele to make it safe.

I think @Marlow nailed it with the phrase (hit and run), because that's exactly how Hourglass plays. I can count on one hand the number of times that low hat led to setplay here. That's not to say that it didn't happen at all, but it's not the majority of how the character plays or where most of his damage comes from.
 

BRAZILIAN SHEEP

Apprentice
And by the way....remember that thing I said about pro players saying the truth? Just play the video and listen to the first 15 seconds of it....:


If that guy is not pro player enough I don't know what it is.
 
And by the way....remember that thing I said about pro players saying the truth? Just play the video and listen to the first 15 seconds of it....:


If that guy is not pro player enough I don't know what it is.
I listened to it and went over 10min in and he isn't saying what your saying at least from what I got from it.
He said the throw loops is kind of cheap in SF6 and in a broad way said all fighters have cheap stuff but also said even the dirt in SF6 has counters and all the games have these things and they've existed since the dawn of time it's not that modern fighters are bad they always had dirt.
But dirt is fun as long as it has counters.
He is solely speaking about a few things that can be hard to counter that are cheap when there $2,000,000 prize pool on the line but he specifically said he thinks most players who aren't getting that $2M would continue to have fun.
I absolutely agree with him, everything the haters complain about gameplay in MK1 exists in most fighters at least the most popular fighters!

There's cheap stuff in MK1 but it's nowhere as broke as older MK's and there is counters it's just more in the top tiers favor but counterable.
 
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M2Dave

Zoning Master
Hourglass spends the majority of time backing up to bait whiff punishes, fishing for something that can be punished by 12, roll, tele, or air roll, or throwing low sai, etc. A lot of times (as in the footage above) low hat is just used to cover 12/f144/a poke, or with the tele to make it safe.

I think @Marlow nailed it with the phrase (hit and run), because that's exactly how Hourglass plays. I can count on one hand the number of times that low hat led to setplay here. That's not to say that it didn't happen at all, but it's not the majority of how the character plays or where most of his damage comes from.
Mileena does with Kung Lao what you accurately described (i.e., strings into low hat, 50/50 mix up using strings with overheads, charged low hat into unsafe special moves that become safe, hard-to-blockables, etc.), which is also what a sizeable portion of the roster does. The game needs more character and kameo variety.
 
Mileena does with Kung Lao what you accurately described (i.e., strings into low hat, 50/50 mix up using strings with overheads, charged low hat into unsafe special moves that become safe, hard-to-blockables, etc.), which is also what a sizeable portion of the roster does. The game needs more character and kameo variety.
I think a lot of people agree with you. I do also agree with crimson to some degree that other styles exist like Foxy's Kitana + Lao zoning/escape but it's obvious that Rushdown is prevalent in MK1, the other styles like Sub Zero using stop pressure moves, clone was simply not allowed to live even though other tools are far more powerful than having someone have to stop mashing mix on you for 2 seconds with 5 seconds cooldown on using it again.
I think some other styles should be buffed and Kameos that augment those styles should be elevated. We know that some competitive players and many many casuals complained about Zoning, and Sub Zero style of defensive/zoning/runaway and it got neutered.
Yes we have Ashrah as a good neutral character and we have Kitana as a Zoner but most characters are not. They made Rain as the "Premier Zoner" according to Kombat Kast and they failed miserably, he simply isn't very good comparative to what S+ because of his very slow startups along with not having Cyrax to cover gaps in his longer range moves and Armor. Every character is a single move from being in your face in MK1 and that can change with block advantage and recovery changes on projectiles while allowing Flawless Block to nullify it forcing opponent to play good to get in.

I remember in MK11 everyone complained about Jade zoning and multiple games complained about Subs defensive playstyle then NRS made Sub Zero Unbreakable in X a Rushdown archetype and everyone lost their shit, then it was a problem Sub was a strong Top Tier and it didn't matter if he was defensive, corner trap artists or Rushdown.
I just think these whiners need to STFU because they have no clue what they want, they just wanna complain about what beats them without labbing their options. If they can't instantly be in your face it's "annoying and needs to go".
I remember back in MK9 the pros would play against strong tactics even when it stumped them for the challenge, they would use their favorite character even if it was lower tier, they didn't try to gut entire gameplay styles out of existence. I don't see that today.

I love Dragon, Sonic and Xombat and Rewind but I've seen concerning things. People asked for nerfs to Johnny, Lao hat and a few other things. They said no it's holding the cast together that Cyrax should be reverted to 1 BAR then I see Dragon posting a few weeks later that Stryker is dumb and needs nerfed.
Pig who I respect, a very good player that's pretty intelligent was defending Kenshi but then saying Sindel was broke and needs nerfs even though it's Lao hat that makes her top tier, he was going after Sindel as base char.

The overall theme I see is nerf your character but not mine. I think most of these players are generally level headed and correct what they say eventually when others challenge them. And don't get me wrong if it wasn't for Dragon, Sonic, Xombat, Rewind and Tweedy speaking up I think the direction would be Gut everything.
What scares me is when top players who know better let Salt get the best of them and NRS sees this, they may not always cater to pros but when 1 million Casuals complained about it and then they see 3-4 Top 15 players complain about the same thing it gets kind of worrisome because I can see NRS nerfing it or considering it.

I think we need more strength in veriety of gameplay styles, they exist but one is far more powerful than the others. And damn the haters who will complain no matter what styles are in the game.
 

John Grizzly

The axe that clears the forest
After years I came here to see what I expected: The same group of NRS ball lickers and....fans.
I don't know who this "fate" is and I'm not talking about the video, but at this point if you play this game /consider this one competitively you are just a zombie.
If you consider what top players say....you must listen more carefully because the main consensus is that this game is broken AF, but not only this one...basically all FG are bullshit, with some ones more broken than others.

MK1 is disrespectful in a level that a person with no critical sense at all would consider this as something to play, I'm sorry. And I'm not even touching that premium store, which for anybody that has standards....is a sign to fuck off and do something else with your precious time.

You don't need to waste your life in something that is bullshit in your face since the beggining.....or you do you think that knowing what a OS means in a certain context, or release check whatever, is going to save that shit? Please man....hold the block button until a certain combination of Kameo / character cheap damage you to death.

The same zombies here as ever....
So we are supposed to listen to and respect the opinion of a fucking moron who can't take the time to go into the settings menu of the game and turn off something? K.

He's a fucking youtube content creator and is clueless about the game he's making content for.

I guess me not respecting his moronic opinion is "ball-licking." Haha ok man.....
 

BRAZILIAN SHEEP

Apprentice
So we are supposed to listen to and respect the opinion of a fucking moron who can't take the time to go into the settings menu of the game and turn off something? K.

He's a fucking youtube content creator and is clueless about the game he's making content for.

I guess me not respecting his moronic opinion is "ball-licking." Haha ok man.....
No, listen to people who devote their lifes into a video game...do that instead.

One thing is the drive to compete, another is your critical sense and how wise you are and where you spend your precious human life time.