Match-up Discussion - Dualist FOREVER ELITE'S Dualist MU chart

[FOREVER EL1TE]

I think you need to level up the Kano you play against then. Kano can really outspace Liu Kang with s2, f4, b1 and d4 all with more range and advancing, which Kang doesn't really have. Low fireballs suck so he can just air ball over them, or just get the zoning advantage and not trade with them because his knives recover so fast. He's also got great options out of the pressure.

Ermac has soul ball and big damage, and a punishable 6f d1. That is not enough to warrant a 3-7. His means of opening people up are completely punishable and he might have better range, but Kang has a much better walk and run speed to compensate. Soul ball doesn't mean he can't through a fb, he just can't throw them like an idiot. Kang has a great d2 that stops Ermacs air game which is very important as well.

JFK stuffs uppercut .
Teleport punishes air fireball or is fireball
Soul ball stops ground fireball and dragon kick.
D4 stops dragon kick
D3 can stop b2 and f4 (I've did it before)

 

[Phosferrax]

JFK stuffs uppercut .
Teleport punishes air fireball or is fireball
Soul ball stops ground fireball and dragon kick.
D4 stops dragon kick
D3 can stop b2 and f4 (I've did it before)

This is Dualist, so Kang isn't going to be using dragon kick. Soul Ball stops fireball when he has lvl 3, and even then Dualist has never wanted to just throw fireballs anyway. Obvious jk can be trip guarded. With d3, can you do it consistently? If not you're risking a poke against getting comboed.

I can see reasons for Ermac having a slight advantage but you need to seriously think of how hard a '3-7' is meant to be.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

I can see reasons for Ermac having a slight advantage but you need to seriously think of how hard a '3-7' is meant to be.

I dont know about MU but as far as I know Ermac and Dualist I must agree with You. 3-7 are insane. Its a scenario where You have almost no tools at hand.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

This is Dualist, so Kang isn't going to be using dragon kick. Soul Ball stops fireball when he has lvl 3, and even then Dualist has never wanted to just throw fireballs anyway. Obvious jk can be trip guarded. With d3, can you do it consistently? If not you're risking a poke against getting comboed.

I can see reasons for Ermac having a slight advantage but you need to seriously think of how hard a '3-7' is meant to be.

It's a hard matchup for any variation of LK. I said everything i needed to say.

 

[Kickbykick]

Mornful beats dualist bro.omg, she's annoying. 6-4 maybe 7-3. Lol. I don't know why Assasin doesn't beat dualist and Royal Storm does. Assasin also has a parry(we both have to be worried).

As for me cutthroat beats dualist 6-4 his pokes, damage, mixup, fast knives and some of his moves spaces liu perfectly that you have no option but to block the d4. And maybe the same as cybernetic

 

[Alien Substance]

I can see reasons for Ermac having a slight advantage but you need to seriously think of how hard a '3-7' is meant to be.

I dont know about MU but as far as I know Ermac and Dualist I must agree with You. 3-7 are insane. Its a scenario where You have almost no tools at hand.

Perhaps there is a discrepancy between what @FOREVER EL1TE and you guys think about what a 7-3/3-7 match-up is like? For example: I like to think of match-up numbers in the following way. (Don't freak out over this. I've made only one MU chart, and that was back in 2012 for a banned character.)
5-5 Even.
6-4 Slight advantage.
7-3 Advantage.
8-2 Large advantage.
9-1 Almost unwinnable for the opponent.
10-0 Unwinnable for the opponent.

 

[Saltea Moonspell]

Come to think of it I gotta admit that this sounds actually pretty good. I haven't played any ermac but definitely Cassie feels that way for sure or perhaps I play to scrubby yet

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

@Bruno-NeoSpace @Kickbykick

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

@Bruno-NeoSpace @Kickbykick

Did you only update with the new characters?

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Did you only update with the new characters?

I updated the new characters and updated the existing ones. 65% of them stayed the same

 

[Phosferrax]

Cyber has an advantage

 

[Pan1cMode]

Dualist does not 7-3 high tech. Even dragon's fire is probably only 6-4.

qb absorbs orbs and Liu pretty much has to hold her block pressure.

Have you played this matchup properly or are you just hypothesising?

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Cyber has an advantage

I forgot about him, yeah that's 6-4 in cyber favor

 

[Derptile]

Eh

 

[Phosferrax]

I forgot about him, yeah that's 6-4 in cyber favor

Am I a genius or what?

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

Cassie Cage 4-6
Hollywood 4-6
Brawler 4-6
Spec Ops 4-6

I think it's worse. Dualist's zoning is not very good and against Cassie it's worse because of her hitbox, her walk and run speed is one of the best in the game, she's got better pokes, footsies, jumps and a 7f reversal.

In Holywood she's got the instant air shots to do some zoning, and she's got an EX nutpunch that has invincible frames to stop Dualist's pressure.
In Brawler she's got very good reversals/wakeups, tick throws and an awesome anti-air. In a short range, she destroys Dualist.
In Spec Ops she's got those missiles that they hit low, so it's even harder to Dualist do zoning and spacing.

This is not just a advantage, this is a huge advantage.
3-7 matchups

Brood Mother 6-4
Swarm Queen 6-4

I never played against an high level Brood Mother, but that variation got buffed, and did you see Zwein using Brood Mother in ESL? It's pretty good. I think Dualist vs Brood Mother is 5-5.

No way that Dualist wins Swarm Queen because Swarm Queen is VERY BROKEN - her puddle is +22 on BLOCK, LOW, 0 recovery, launcher, meterless, it tracks you and it does not go away on HIT (PAULO'S VISION); her F1 is a very good mid advacing move and B1,2,2 into bug cancel is +12, her footsies are very good, her armor got buffed... she wins the trades, pokes, footsies, air-to-air, her setups works properly unlike Dualist... She wins even Flame Fist (4-6) and Dragon's Fire (4-6).
3-7 matchup

Gunslinger 5-5

Gunslinger is extremely good - very good zoning, his D1 got buffed, his command grab got buffed, very good anti-air, armor breakers, 50/50, plus frames, the 21122 string is very good, solid damage... maybe he can win almost all matchups in the game because all his tools are amazing. Dualist can't zone, can't space, only in close range that Dualist got some chances, but it's tough because Gunslinger is also very good in close range.
4-6 matchup

Ruthless 6-4
Vicious 5-5

Ferra/Torr has good counter zoning because Ferra negates projectiles, so Dualist's zoning will not work in this matchup, so Dualist will need to fight in a close range and in a close range Ferra/Torr is better than Dualist - amazing NJP, better pokes, safe 50/50, in Ruthless he does more damage, has plus frames, cancels... Liu Kang can stop his cancels into standing normals and his pain and gain armor using F1,2, but Ruthless still has advantage. In Vicious, Dualist gets rekt - His Boss Toss is the last nail in the coffin (dualist's zoning), it's safe, and Vicious can zone Dualist.
Dualist vs Ruthless is 4-6 / Dualist vs Vicious is 3-7

Dragon Fangs 5-5
Kuatan Warrior 5-5
Tigrar Fury 5-5

Goro is underated, and he got buffed A LOT. It's all 4-6 now.

High Tech 7-3
Shotgun 4-6
Full Auto 5-5

Jacqui got buffed a lot. High Tech has 2 tools to negate Dualist's zoning - the shield and Quick Burst, her cancels are plus and she's got the Flame Fist's stuff, it's kinda Dragon's Fire + Flame Fist (she does not have zoning but can negate zonings). lol.
Full Auto has advantage because of the zoning, her buffs...
5-5 against High Tech I think / 4-6 against Full Auto / I agree about Shotgun

Pumped Up 5-5
Heavy Weapons 4-6
Wrestler 5-5

Jax can armor break easily all Dualist's armors, but Dualist cannot armor break easily all Jax's armor, Jax got better range because of his F2 which is a 13 frames mid advacing move, better pokes, better normals...
Maybe is 5-5 against Pumped Up. I never played against an high level Pumped Up
Against Heavy Weapons maybe is worse because his rocket is mid, it does 10% damage and you can use it as an anti-air... so, Heavy Weapon's zoning might be better than Dualist's. He can use his cancels to have some plus frames and bait Dualist.
Against Wrestler I think it is 3-7 because his mixups are better because of his tick throws and his got a very good reversal/wakeup move. He always can choose his side in the screen.

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Maaaan, there are a lot of more matchups in your chart that are super wrong...

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

Dualist does not 7-3 high tech. Even dragon's fire is probably only 6-4.

qb absorbs orbs and Liu pretty much has to hold her block pressure.

Have you played this matchup properly or are you just hypothesising?

You assume that his orbs are zoning tools. They're not, if she was to try to absorb them during a SETUP (The more efficient way to use them) she would get punished.
And she also has to hold his pressure

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

I think it's worse. Dualist's zoning is not very good and against Cassie it's worse because of her hitbox, her walk and run speed is one of the best in the game, she's got better pokes, footsies, jumps and a 7f reversal.

In Holywood she's got the instant air shots to do some zoning, and she's got an EX nutpunch that has invincible frames to stop Dualist's pressure.
In Brawler she's got very good reversals/wakeups, tick throws and an awesome anti-air. In a short range, she destroys Dualist.
In Spec Ops she's got those missiles that they hit low, so it's even harder to Dualist do zoning and spacing.

This is not just a advantage, this is a huge advantage.
3-7 matchups



I never played against an high level Brood Mother, but that variation got buffed, and did you see Zwein using Brood Mother in ESL? It's pretty good. I think Dualist vs Brood Mother is 5-5.

No way that Dualist wins Swarm Queen because Swarm Queen is VERY BROKEN - her puddle is +22 on BLOCK, LOW, 0 recovery, launcher, meterless, it tracks you and it does not go away on HIT (PAULO'S VISION); her F1 is a very good mid advacing move and B1,2,2 into bug cancel is +12, her footsies are very good, her armor got buffed... she wins the trades, pokes, footsies, air-to-air, her setups works properly unlike Dualist... She wins even Flame Fist (4-6) and Dragon's Fire (4-6).
3-7 matchup



Gunslinger is extremely good - very good zoning, his D1 got buffed, his command grab got buffed, very good anti-air, armor breakers, 50/50, plus frames, the 21122 string is very good, solid damage... maybe he can win almost all matchups in the game because all his tools are amazing. Dualist can't zone, can't space, only in close range that Dualist got some chances, but it's tough because Gunslinger is also very good in close range.
4-6 matchup



Ferra/Torr has good counter zoning because Ferra negates projectiles, so Dualist's zoning will not work in this matchup, so Dualist will need to fight in a close range and in a close range Ferra/Torr is better than Dualist - amazing NJP, better pokes, safe 50/50, in Ruthless he does more damage, has plus frames, cancels... Liu Kang can stop his cancels into standing normals and his pain and gain armor using F1,2, but Ruthless still has advantage. In Vicious, Dualist gets rekt - His Boss Toss is the last nail in the coffin (dualist's zoning), it's safe, and Vicious can zone Dualist.
Dualist vs Ruthless is 4-6 / Dualist vs Vicious is 3-7



Goro is underated, and he got buffed A LOT. It's all 4-6 now.



Jacqui got buffed a lot. High Tech has 2 tools to negate Dualist's zoning - the shield and Quick Burst, her cancels are plus and she's got the Flame Fist's stuff, it's kinda Dragon's Fire + Flame Fist (she does not have zoning but can negate zonings). lol.
Full Auto has advantage because of the zoning, her buffs...
5-5 against High Tech I think / 4-6 against Full Auto / I agree about Shotgun



Jax can armor break easily all Dualist's armors, but Dualist cannot armor break easily all Jax's armor, Jax got better range because of his F3 which is a 13 frames mid advacing move, better pokes, better normals...
Maybe is 5-5 against Pumped Up. I never played against an high level Pumped Up
Against Heavy Weapons maybe is worse because his rocket is mid, it does 10% damage and you can use it as an anti-air... so, Heavy Weapon's zoning might be better than Dualist's. He can use his cancels to have some plus frames and bait Dualist.
Against Wrestler I think it is 3-7 because his mixups are better because of his tick throws and his got a very good reversal/wakeup move. He always can choose his side in the screen.

-----------------

Maaaan, there are a lot of more matchups in your chart that are super wrong...

I'm not responding to that long post you killed me. #Slayed
But opinions are opinions and I'm a upplayer.

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

I'm not responding to that long post you killed me. #Slayed
But opinions are opinions and I'm a upplayer.

lol hahahaha.

 

[Phosferrax]

@Bruno-NeoSpace Cassie has bad reversals. You're just listing tools and it doesn't sound you have an informed idea of how they actually work out in the MU.

She has great anti-air? So what, why are you jumping at all as Liu Kang?

Her missiles aren't great as a space control option, and Liu Kang has the option of reactionary dragon kick to any missile.

 

[Pan1cMode]

You assume that his orbs are zoning tools. They're not, if she was to try to absorb them during a SETUP (The more efficient way to use them) she would get punished.
And she also has to hold his pressure

She has a 6 frame s1, an 8 frame s4 and a 7frame d1. If you want to create gaps for your setups you're gonna get poked out into pressure. Or she can use her 12 frame armour. High tech's pressure is much more legit than dualist's is.

Dualist can't wake up since d4~df2 option selects all his wake ups and still leaves her +2.

She has ex bf2 as well as her great walk speed to get in and if you try and zone her, df2 and db1. I don't think this match up is as bad as you think it is. Honestly, have you ever played a good high tech? Or is this mostly just theory crafting?

High tech does have some weaknesses and there are definitely certain match ups I would avoid using it. Dualist isn't one of them (In fact, Liu in general isn't that bad). I've honestly felt this match up to be even. If anything, maybe a slight advantage to dualist but definitely not anywhere in the realm of 7-3.

High Tech's 7-3 matchups are Piercing, Swarm Queen and Shirai Ryu. A large factor in those however is hitbox oddities.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

She has a 6 frame s1, an 8 frame s4 and a 7frame d1. If you want to create gaps for your setups you're gonna get poked out into pressure. Or she can use her 12 frame armour. High tech's pressure is much more legit than dualist's is.

Dualist can't wake up since d4~df2 option selects all his wake ups and still leaves her +2.

She has ex bf2 as well as her great walk speed to get in and if you try and zone her, df2 and db1. I don't think this match up is as bad as you think it is. Honestly, have you ever played a good high tech? Or is this mostly just theory crafting?

High tech does have some weaknesses and there are definitely certain match ups I would avoid using it. Dualist isn't one of them (In fact, Liu in general isn't that bad). I've honestly felt this match up to be even. If anything, maybe a slight advantage to dualist but definitely not anywhere in the realm of 7-3.

The last time I played a good ht was like 4 patches ago. So my knowledge on it isn't fully 100%. And about you said about his pressure, me reading that button wouldn't hurt to block or armor. I should play this mu again

 

[Pan1cMode]

The last time I played a good ht was like 4 patches ago. So my knowledge on it isn't fully 100%. And about you said about his pressure, me reading that button wouldn't hurt to block or armor. I should play this mu again

High tech has changed a lot since 4 patches.

- safe armour
- more plus cancels (121~qbrc jails to s1)
- dash cancel combos
- useable 4u4
- 7 frame d1
- 8 frame s4 (this is huge in this matchup)

As for the blocking/armouring, if you chose to block you've already lost since everything high tech has is + on block and frame traps into more pressure. If you armour that's good, but you've wasted a bar and if the high tech chooses to block, they now get free pressure which you now can't escape (since you need meter to escape as Liu in the corner against high tech).


This matchup has changed heaps. There aren't many high tech's out there, but she's definitely hella more viable than some people give her credit for.

 

[FOREVER EL1TE]

High tech has changed a lot since 4 patches.

- safe armour
- more plus cancels (121~qbrc jails to s1)
- dash cancel combos
- useable 4u4
- 7 frame d1
- 8 frame s4 (this is huge in this matchup)

As for the blocking/armouring, if you chose to block you've already lost since everything high tech has is + on block and frame traps into more pressure. If you armour that's good, but you've wasted a bar and if the high tech chooses to block, they now get free pressure which you now can't escape (since you need meter to escape as Liu in the corner against high tech).


This matchup has changed heaps. There aren't many high tech's out there, but she's definitely hella more viable than some people give her credit for.

I picked up ht and for the life of me I still can't do 4u4,

 

[Bruno-NeoSpace]

@Bruno-NeoSpace Cassie has bad reversals. You're just listing tools and it doesn't sound you have an informed idea of how they actually work out in the MU.

She has great anti-air? So what, why are you jumping at all as Liu Kang?

Her missiles aren't great as a space control option, and Liu Kang has the option of reactionary dragon kick to any missile.

Yeah, her Power Flip got nerfed, but her Glow Kick has armor and it's 13f, not extremely fast but it's fast. In Brawler she's got a 12f armored throw that does 18% into an knockdown

She can use her gun shots instantly in the air to catch Liu Kang while he's standing. Example: when Dualist will use his regular fireball, she can use her gun shots instantly in the air.

About her missiles, oh yeah, you're right. I just saw their framedata and it's 48 startup frames. lol. But what if she uses they in a close range? It will trade I think.