For everyone who has played Dark Souls, and everyone that should

[Law Hero]

Law Hero, well that's the thing, and I think its just a difference in our mental wiring. It's awesome that From tucked a universe away behind the game, but the fact it only exists as that, an entity that exists outside the game itself, it feels cheap to me. You could take Burger Time and add a bunch of cryptic references behind each different hunk of meat and lettuce then drop subtle hints after each level, it still wouldn't be deeper than make burgers get points. There's simply no incentive to uncover Dark Souls. Its just an easter egg.

I can definitely see how it's not everyone's cup of tea.

For me, the challenge of completing each area or any objective is my main reason for playing, and most of my enjoyment comes from the success of overcoming a challenge. When I first played Demon's/Dark Souls, I was completely satisfied with playing to just play; however, after a while, the questions of "why is this here," "who is this REALLY," and "what does this mean" became a whole new task. While playing through the games, I found it just as exciting to grab a new item and quickly examine to understand what it is, why it was there, and how it relates to the world and characters. I think the challenge of the game is the best part, but uncovering the history and story is like another challenge hidden in the game. For me, it just adds even more to it. But like I said, I'm sure that kind of structure isn't for everyone, and I can see how it might be a little offputting for some.

 

[trufenix]

Law Hero, maybe I need to play it again, not that it'll ever happen cause seriously, fuck that game, but that seems to be a resounding rhetoric for people on their second or third play through. Once you know all the danger and have a wiki worth of build knowledge in your head, you can grow an appreciation for the lore because now the game is secondary, but for someone like me, who only has the opportunity for one playthrough, one frustrating soul crushing play through, I'll never get there.

 

[RM Truth]

Law Hero, maybe I need to play it again, not that it'll ever happen cause seriously, fuck that game, but that seems to be a resounding rhetoric for people on their second or third play through. Once you know all the danger and have a wiki worth of build knowledge in your head, you can grow an appreciation for the lore because now the game is secondary, but for someone like me, who only has the opportunity for one playthrough, one frustrating soul crushing play through, I'll never get there.

You should give it another chance. The whole game is really just trial and error. Once you know what to expect, it's nowhere near as bad. I was the same way on my first playthrough. I made it to Ornstein and Smough, couldn't beat them, then said fuck it, and didn't play the game again until the dlc came out. After trying it again, and figuring out all the patterns, and actually learning the proper ways to upgrade my characters, it's become one of my favorite games of all time. Also, it's not just you. That game has a history of crushing people's souls. I had to cry myself to sleep some nights after a session of that game.

 

[Law Hero]

Law Hero, maybe I need to play it again, not that it'll ever happen cause seriously, fuck that game, but that seems to be a resounding rhetoric for people on their second or third play through. Once you know all the danger and have a wiki worth of build knowledge in your head, you can grow an appreciation for the lore because now the game is secondary, but for someone like me, who only has the opportunity for one playthrough, one frustrating soul crushing play through, I'll never get there.

You should definitely play them again. Although at TheTruth4591 is correct, if you slow down, there is very little trial and error. I mean, next time you play, take a close look at the stairs in Sen's Fortress. If you look closely, they're all smoothed out when there's a boulder going on the path showing that they've been worn down over time. This is just the first thing that comes to mind, but there's tons of stuff like that hidden in the entire game. I really get a new appreciation for From every time I learn something new like that because unlike many games that come out now with a big world full of stuff that's their for the sake of taking up space, every little corner of Boletaria/Lordran has some sort of meaning. From the broken statue of the Son's Firstborn to the two passive crying demons in the Duke's Archives. Nothing feels like a simple room created for the sake of lengthening the experience, and most things that people claim to be trial and error can be avoided by taking your time and meticulously examining your surroundings and enemy patterns. It's quite the experience.

And the game won't crush your soul. Instead it builds it a strong foundation and strengthens it over time. I had quite the challenge on my first run through or two, but now the world feels like home to me. I know every nook and cranny, each enemy's location, how the traps work, and exploring is the new experience. So all-in-all, I highly recommend you come back and play it again. If you've only played Dark Souls, I suggest you check out Demon's Souls or vice versa. And a NG+ experience is something everyone should have.

 

[RM Truth]

You should definitely play them again. Although at TheTruth4591 is correct, if you slow down, there is very little trial and error. I mean, next time you play, take a close look at the stairs in Sen's Fortress. If you look closely, they're all smoothed out when there's a boulder going on the path showing that they've been worn down over time. This is just the first thing that comes to mind, but there's tons of stuff like that hidden in the entire game. I really get a new appreciation for From every time I learn something new like that because unlike many games that come out now with a big world full of stuff that's their for the sake of taking up space, every little corner of Boletaria/Lordran has some sort of meaning. From the broken statue of the Son's Firstborn to the two passive crying demons in the Duke's Archives. Nothing feels like a simple room created for the sake of lengthening the experience, and most things that people claim to be trial and error can be avoided by taking your time and meticulously examining your surroundings and enemy patterns. It's quite the experience.

And the game won't crush your soul. Instead it builds it a strong foundation and strengthens it over time. I had quite the challenge on my first run through or two, but now the world feels like home to me. I know every nook and cranny, each enemy's location, how the traps work, and exploring is the new experience. So all-in-all, I highly recommend you come back and play it again. If you've only played Dark Souls, I suggest you check out Demon's Souls or vice versa. And a NG+ experience is something everyone should have.

It's all about mindset really. Some people get disheartened after a session, but then comeback even more determined. Some people persevere no how many tries it takes. Some people give up after a few tries, because the game is too hard for them.

 

[LEGEND]

if you have alot of attention to detail, are cautious, and learn from your mistakes Souls games aren't nearly as hard as they're made out to be

You don't need "a wiki of information" or to have died several times in an area to get past it. There is always a way to know whats coming or to deal with a threat if you have enough skill. And even then there are plenty of tricks you can use to get past an area if you are creative enough (plus there are always summon signs)
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Law Hero, well that's the thing, and I think its just a difference in our mental wiring. It's awesome that From tucked a universe away behind the game, but the fact it only exists as that, an entity that exists outside the game itself, it feels cheap to me. You could take Burger Time and add a bunch of cryptic references behind each different hunk of meat and lettuce then drop subtle hints after each level, it still wouldn't be deeper than make burgers get points. There's simply no incentive to uncover Dark Souls. Its just an easter egg.

Then what you're saying is novels are just paperweights. . . Dark Soul's lore and story isn't "tucked away". Its there, its up to you if you want to piece everything together to try and make sense of every little detail or to talk to the NPCs and read item descriptions if you want further information

I just want to correct your way of thinking about this, I completely understand if Dark Souls isn't your kind of game and there is nothing wrong with that

 

[trufenix]

Law Hero, LEGEND, I'm not gonna argue with you guys because you're obviously experts, but you should keep in mind when you say things like "it's just a little trial and error", that you guys are in fact experts. For novices who didn't cut their teeth on hours of demon souls, a game like dark souls is incredibly daunting and just "slowing down" and "paying attention" means something entirely different for the two classes of player. I'm sure if I had 40 hours to just drown in it, I would be on your level of appreciation, but that's not the point when things like story execution should be judged.

For example, I didn't realize until, I dunno, two hours in, that I should just expect to be unceremoniously killed by some ridiculous surprise every time I find a new area, nor that finding a clever way to avoid said surprise wouldn't award me a chance to try again later. It just made me feel first like I repeatedly made poor choices and that I was a pussy for not risking everything at all times standing up to challenges that were clearly beyond me. Once I realigned all my perceptions, I got better at the game, but that still never gave me any real clues towards the next challenge or goal, it just said "well, that got you killed, do something else." That's not trial and error, that's a guessing game. No game designer will ever say; "an invisible enemy with an instant kill backstab is an excellent teaching tool."

And for the record, I loved Dark Souls, I loved the atmosphere and the premise. I just feel their execution was deliberately (and I stress, deliberately) misguided in some regards. Being obtusely innovative doesn't win it a free pass, the story delivery still sucks.

 

[LEGEND]

Law Hero, LEGEND, I'm not gonna argue with you guys because you're obviously experts, but you should keep in mind when you say things like "it's just a little trial and error", that you guys are in fact experts. For novices who didn't cut their teeth on hours of demon souls, a game like dark souls is incredibly daunting and just "slowing down" and "paying attention" means something entirely different for the two classes of player. I'm sure if I had 40 hours to just drown in it, I would be on your level of appreciation, but that's not the point when things like story execution should be judged.

For example, I didn't realize until, I dunno, two hours in, that I should just expect to be unceremoniously killed by some ridiculous surprise every time I find a new area, nor that finding a clever way to avoid said surprise wouldn't award me a chance to try again later. It just made me feel first like I repeatedly made poor choices and that I was a pussy for not risking everything at all times standing up to challenges that were clearly beyond me. Once I realigned all my perceptions, I got better at the game, but that still never gave me any real clues towards the next challenge or goal, it just said "well, that got you killed, do something else." That's not trial and error, that's a guessing game. No game designer will ever say; "an invisible enemy with an instant kill backstab is an excellent teaching tool."

And for the record, I loved Dark Souls, I loved the atmosphere and the premise. I just feel their execution was deliberately (and I stress, deliberately) misguided in some regards. Being obtusely innovative doesn't win it a free pass, the story delivery still sucks.

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

No game designer will ever say; "an invisible enemy with an instant kill backstab is an excellent teaching tool."

just curious, what are you referencing with this?

the only thing that's invisible and kills in one backstab that I know of are laggy players online :tonyt