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Match-up Discussion Flash and Sinestro

KillaGthug4Life

Believe in Magic yet? Let us Dance
There has been loads of discrepancy over these matchups and I wanted some opinions on what the numbers are for each character agains Zatanna.

Flash: Here's a really good flash vs Zatanna matchup video, courtesy of HoneyBee and Phosferrax:


The original claim was that Z beats flash 7-3 with fireball and trait zoning. Now I think Flash is similar to the Doomsday matchup where Zatanna cannot keep him out (he gets a free dash after a ring, huge dash range, dash cannot be caught by Puppet Master and Puppet Master can be punished on block from about quarter screen and maybe longer). The only saving grace would be trait in that it has great chip, although isn't as effective as it can be because lightning cage can be whiff punished. Even a blocked spark from about quarter screen Zatanna has to block or else she'll be hit by his torpedo charge, she can't crouch block to punish.

Pros: Zatanna trait chip, Vortex, standing 3 to sometimes catch Flash's dash in, Fireball MB into trait (most flash players will just get as close as they can to the fireball and take the chip from it so they can freely pressure Z, but with slow fireball and low spark the push back disallows them from hitting the fireball)

Cons: Flash's dash, his huge damage output from trait, pressure, free 50/50 on jump in, and being able to punish whiff standing 3 as well as puppetmaster from quarter screen.

Personally I think the matchup is 5.5-4.5 Flash favor. Mayybee a 6-4, I would not argue 5-5 because of Flash's damage and pressure screws Zatanna.


Sinestro: This match was again considered a 6-4 Zatanna previously. I'd argue for a 5.5-4.5 Zatanna. Reason being because Zatanna has troubles zoning Sinestro with his great dash which CANNOT be caught by Puppet Master. It's more a full screen reads game because Sinestro can't fear blast all the time or else we can teleport behind and punish, Zatanna can't spam rings all the time because Sinestro can interrupt with shackles. Although Sinestro has better footsies with his b12, he cannot safely back dash because standing 3 into kicks has a long reach and leads to a full combo punish. He's forced to block which allows us to throw in some jump in mixups or high low.

Pros: Mb teleports are invaluable. Especially when Sinestro blocks a ring, it won't punish his dash in after a blocked ring but teleport in front can throw them off guard (especially if used with d1 kicks/ b1u3), standing 3 after his b12, mbb3 the air ax on reaction, and vortex.

Cons: Sinestro's METERLESS vortex, large dash distance, trait... (basically Zatanna has to keep full screen if Sinestro has trait), Sinestro has better footsi.

Basically I only think it's slightly Zatanna favor because even though Sinestro has better footsi... using it can be a risk.

Thoughts?

@WoundCowboy
@HoneyBee
@Phosferrax
@Laos_boy
@EMPEROR_SunFire
@IMakeItL00kC00L
 

KillaGthug4Life

Believe in Magic yet? Let us Dance
Lol I was raging so hard when I sent that message. Yup saw it, it eases my conscience to think that it's the matchup why I lose to Flash all the time lol
 

EMPRESS_SunFire

Regina George of discord
I would love the Hawkgirl MU to be discussed in this too, some people say 5-5, some say 6-4 Zatanna and others say 6-4 Hawkgirl.... IMO it's definitely not 6-4 Zatanna and Hawkgirl defeats her. Her mobility is really good, she doesn't give a fuck about Zatanna's zoning at all since she can either wing evade her rings or block them and wing evade afterwards, both will negate frame traps with PM, push her forward and negate chip damage and once she is in she can just bully Zatanna
@Espio
@other HG players
@Zatanna players
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
@Shaazzyam let's play soon bruh. The only Batman I've ever played was Arma in a short online a couple of months ago, so it'll be interesting.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Sinestro isn't forced to block after b12 on block. His d1 will beat out her s3.

Iadk is the best thing to do after a blocked b12 as it beats back dash and d1, and mb version is plus on block. His mbb3 will lose but mbf3 will beat out.

Once he either starts blocking tthe dive kick or trying to mbf3 then you can do multi kicks to best those options.
 

juicepouch

blink-182 enthusiast
Man Z is so cool... Not that I have anything to add to either MU discussion, but I really like her style. I didn't at first, but I've been trying to open up my mind and understand a character like her that plays so outside the box from the others I play. It's wonderful
 

IMakeItL00kC00L

Do not provoke a god
I've always said that zatanna has an advantage and at this very moment in time, 9:52 pm est 12/25/14 (or 25/12/14 for you international people), believe that zatanna has the advantage.

HOWEVER

I could definitely see this possibly being even.

BUT

For the time being i'll say that zatanna has a slight advantage.
 

KillaGthug4Life

Believe in Magic yet? Let us Dance
I've always said that zatanna has an advantage and at this very moment in time, 9:52 pm est 12/25/14 (or 25/12/14 for you international people), believe that zatanna has the advantage.

HOWEVER

I could definitely see this possibly being even.

BUT

For the time being i'll say that zatanna has a slight advantage.
Yay! Someone agrees :). WoundCowboy sometimes convinces me that Sinestro has the advantage... but partially because he's very good at injustice. Regardless, the Hawkgirl matchup I literally have not a clue on. I've never played a good hawk girl and I know 0% of her traps or tricks.
 

Espio

Kokomo
Lead Moderator
I would love the Hawkgirl MU to be discussed in this too, some people say 5-5, some say 6-4 Zatanna and others say 6-4 Hawkgirl.... IMO it's definitely not 6-4 Zatanna and Hawkgirl defeats her. Her mobility is really good, she doesn't give a fuck about Zatanna's zoning at all since she can either wing evade her rings or block them and wing evade afterwards, both will negate frame traps with PM, push her forward and negate chip damage and once she is in she can just bully Zatanna
@Espio
@other HG players
@Zatanna players
I don't see how it's any better than 5-5 for Zatanna. Hawkgirl beats her everywhere on the screen except for 100% full screen away. At most ranges trait negates rings, puppet master, fireball etc. Hawkgirl regulate her in pressure and footsies too. Down 1 and down 2 alone are a problem for her. Zatanna's footsies are pretty weak and she can't really fall back on her zoning because it can be avoided with trait and evades.

Mace charge , MB mace toss and wing evade 3 are great for blowing up back teleports or chasing them down too. Hawkgirl blows her up for jumping in really well.

If she can't zone and loses the footsie game, I don't see how it's not anything other than at least slight edge Hawkgirl. Hawkgirl's mobility is so good in this match up, it's crazy.

P.S. I wasn't tagged in this post :/.
 

KillaGthug4Life

Believe in Magic yet? Let us Dance
I think Sinestro has to play the MU like the Raven MU, and once he does that he's fine.
I get less worried about this matchup full screen because I think both players equally threaten each other, cause neither can fully zone as much as they usually would.
 

KillaGthug4Life

Believe in Magic yet? Let us Dance
jump back zatara dive is a check for footsies. Well just jump back and if he's moving then zatara dive. Just try not to jump in is basically all I'm gonna throw out, his d2 is basically full screen..
 

bishbash

Magic as easy as 1 2 standing3
I would love the Hawkgirl MU to be discussed in this too, some people say 5-5, some say 6-4 Zatanna and others say 6-4 Hawkgirl.... IMO it's definitely not 6-4 Zatanna and Hawkgirl defeats her. Her mobility is really good, she doesn't give a fuck about Zatanna's zoning at all since she can either wing evade her rings or block them and wing evade afterwards, both will negate frame traps with PM, push her forward and negate chip damage and once she is in she can just bully Zatanna
@Espio
@other HG players
@Zatanna players
Hawkgirl MU not worth playing IMO. 6-4 at best possibly worse. I mean what can we do? she can spend 90% of the match where we can't touch her...

On thread topic I think slight advantage flash and Sinestro I feel is pretty even at this point
 

C88 Zombieekiler

Up and coming sub zero
Hawkgirl MU not worth playing IMO. 6-4 at best possibly worse. I mean what can we do? she can spend 90% of the match where we can't touch her...

On thread topic I think slight advantage flash and Sinestro I feel is pretty even at this point
U got xbl?
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Hawkgirl MU not worth playing IMO. 6-4 at best possibly worse. I mean what can we do? she can spend 90% of the match where we can't touch her...

On thread topic I think slight advantage flash and Sinestro I feel is pretty even at this point
As in, you think flash has a slight advantage or Zatanna has a slight advantage against him?
 

bishbash

Magic as easy as 1 2 standing3
As in, you think flash has a slight advantage or Zatanna has a slight advantage against him?
Sorry, advantage flash imo. I've thought this for a long time. At one point I think I might have even called it 7-3 his favour definitely 6-4. At this point slight advantage flash imo.

I noticed in the match footage you like your bgbs with Zatanna for max damage after bgb cross up J3-Levi-d2 3-mb trance b3 j3-air kicks. Obviously you can't do this if you start the combo with mb trance but I saw you sometimes d1-bgb
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
Sorry, advantage flash imo. I've thought this for a long time. At one point I think I might have even called it 7-3 his favour definitely 6-4. At this point slight advantage flash imo.

I noticed in the match footage you like your bgbs with Zatanna for max damage after bgb cross up J3-Levi-d2 3-mb trance b3 j3-air kicks. Obviously you can't do this if you start the combo with mb trance but I saw you sometimes d1-bgb
That's a good max damage combo TY. Unless it's going to kill, I nearly always do the meterless vortex from bgb, as there it is much better to keep the meter for extending the vortex in the future. So from a d1-bgb, unless it I can end the round with it then I won't use meter for a big combo.
 

C88 Zombieekiler

Up and coming sub zero
[quoteash, post: 1547391, member: 29384"]Sorry, advantage flash imo. I've thought this for a long time. At one point I think I might have even called it 7-3 his favour definitely 6-4. At this point slight advantage flash imo.

I noticed in the match footage you like your bgbs with Zatanna for max damage after bgb cross up J3-Levi-d2 3-mb trance b3 j3-air kicks. Obviously you can't do this if you start the combo with mb trance but I saw you sometimes d1-bgb[/quote]
Youre obviously tripping or are shit at the mu just play me or honeybee