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Five Ways MK11 Diminishes Defense

Gaxkang

Noob
Im aware of that. I quoted him becaus all he does is blaming his losses because mk11 has terrible netcode and also because of hitbox issues.
I do pose constructive criticism indicating things that i feel affect what goes on with folks out there.

When I win fights my criticisms don't change, and I have the same general feelings whether i win or lose. And one could say, i also chalk wins up including factors i feel also are there for losses, whether for me or others, yeah.

Like if people get away with jumps they never would in another game...how can one not notice that? :D It is but my nature... :p
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
All I said was its harder to react online due to the added frame lag. I didnt know you two had a history but a fact is a fact lol. I didnt bash anyone.
I think it's fair to say it was more aimed at the person you were quoting than anyone, but since your post was basically a partial defense of the original point it all had to get lumped together.
 
I do pose constructive criticism indicating things that i feel affect what goes on with folks out there.

When I win fights my criticisms don't change, and I have the same general feelings whether i win or lose. And one could say, i also chalk wins up including factors i feel also are there for losses, whether for me or others, yeah.

Like if people get away with jumps they never would in another game...how can one not notice that? :D It is but my nature... :p
With all due respect, every post I've seen from you criticizing MK11's gameplay you are always super vague about it and then just wink at anyone who challenges the comment.
Maybe if you would actually explain yourself and why you think this game is so poorly designed in specifics that would help other people see your point of view a little better for a change.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
With all due respect, every post I've seen from you criticizing MK11's gameplay you are always super vague about it and then just wink at anyone who challenges the comment.
Maybe if you would actually explain yourself and why you think this game is so poorly designed in specifics that would help other people see your point of view a little better for a change.
Oh I have done pretty detailed explanations before but then the person I'd speak to would lose interest, and just say i'm not right or that nobody actually does such and such in a fight, etc. one person told me what i was seeing in training mode simply wasn't real (heh).
So wasn't much motivation for me to gather buncha info. Like breaking down an interaction in a fight and the different things that can or can't happen.

But some specific things I could point out that don't need alot info:

1. The way it should work is if you got somebody's jump-in you should be able to hit your uppercut and anti-air them. With few exceptions it doesn't work like that. So then you have to try make other moves work and may still not work. Meanwhile people get away with things they really shouldn't and it hurts the game.

2. Krushing Blows look great visually but gameplay-wise tend to amount to random bursts of big damage that makes things feel less earned. And encouraging mashing D2 seems bad.

3. Folks should be able to jump over projectiles unless they are late. Right now you can do it really only by anticipating (maybe).

4. Game needs more punishment in general, and the powerful cheesy stuff needs to be punishable by anything really. And nix all the pushback on block and reliance on (hopefully) advancing strings or moves.
I'm still of a mind if something leads to big damage...it should also lead to big punishment if it don't work out.

5. the poking game and throw meta as it is should be retired. It has connection to the mash D2 thing too. D1 throw shouldn't occupy a major percentage of the game anyways.

6. some folks will maintain the online is perfect or just about, but i'd say the game is affected by it and become cheesefests. Even at low MS there can be issues...but average games will be 130-150, other times instabilities can push higher. And if it's USA vs. Brazil...bleh.
But some folks maintain it's great...i heard that before in other fighting games tho heh.

7. on a quick subject of character design I think Sub Zero is obnoxiously designed in the confines of the game. Slide is unreactable anyways at medium or short range, but online at long range too...plus KB attached. When his projectile trades, he gets knocked down and still has time to walk over and take a combo.
50/50 (or more) from f2 is nonsense. plus other shenanigans.
Wouldn't be so bad if obnoxiousness cheese was evenly spread in the game but it's not.
But yeah, some people will downplay Sub. ;)
I could go into others.

8. like i mentioned earlier about hitboxes and hurtboxes...if for example you are not on the ground you really shouldn't be hit by a low or low looking move and snapped back down to the ground.
I also find it interesting how in a game where anti-airing is so iffy, various moves will easily hit characters who are jumping into the air, the beginning of the jump.

So examples of points I'd make...I know some folks will dismiss it whole cloth of a know nothing, but well. ;)
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Oh I have done pretty detailed explanations before but then the person I'd speak to would lose interest, and just say i'm not right or that nobody actually does such and such in a fight, etc. one person told me what i was seeing in training mode simply wasn't real (heh).
So wasn't much motivation for me to gather buncha info. Like breaking down an interaction in a fight and the different things that can or can't happen.

But some specific things I could point out that don't need alot info:

1. The way it should work is if you got somebody's jump-in you should be able to hit your uppercut and anti-air them. With few exceptions it doesn't work like that. So then you have to try make other moves work and may still not work. Meanwhile people get away with things they really shouldn't and it hurts the game.

2. Krushing Blows look great visually but gameplay-wise tend to amount to random bursts of big damage that makes things feel less earned. And encouraging mashing D2 seems bad.

3. Folks should be able to jump over projectiles unless they are late. Right now you can do it really only by anticipating (maybe).

4. Game needs more punishment in general, and the powerful cheesy stuff needs to be punishable by anything really. And nix all the pushback on block and reliance on (hopefully) advancing strings or moves.
I'm still of a mind if something leads to big damage...it should also lead to big punishment if it don't work out.

5. the poking game and throw meta as it is should be retired. It has connection to the mash D2 thing too. D1 throw shouldn't occupy a major percentage of the game anyways.

6. some folks will maintain the online is perfect or just about, but i'd say the game is affected by it and become cheesefests. Even at low MS there can be issues...but average games will be 130-150, other times instabilities can push higher. And if it's USA vs. Brazil...bleh.
But some folks maintain it's great...i heard that before in other fighting games tho heh.

7. on a quick subject of character design I think Sub Zero is obnoxiously designed in the confines of the game. Slide is unreactable anyways at medium or short range, but online at long range too...plus KB attached. When his projectile trades, he gets knocked down and still has time to walk over and take a combo.
50/50 (or more) from f2 is nonsense. plus other shenanigans.
Wouldn't be so bad if obnoxiousness cheese was evenly spread in the game but it's not.
But yeah, some people will downplay Sub. ;)
I could go into others.

8. like i mentioned earlier about hitboxes and hurtboxes...if for example you are not on the ground you really shouldn't be hit by a low or low looking move and snapped back down to the ground.
I also find it interesting how in a game where anti-airing is so iffy, various moves will easily hit characters who are jumping into the air, the beginning of the jump.

So examples of points I'd make...I know some folks will dismiss it whole cloth of a know nothing, but well. ;)
Posts like these make it pretty clear that you don’t understand how to play the game. I mean, anti-airing with ‘uppercuts’ is like red flag #1 out of 20.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
Posts like these make it pretty clear that you don’t understand how to play the game. I mean, anti-airing with ‘uppercuts’ is like red flag #1 out of 20.
Uppercuts is how it should be. As opposed to how it is. Which is iffy at best, in terms of the other moves people try to use.

Perhaps only a minority want to play the game the way the makers cobbled it together. The uppercuts are the intuitive move...the player gets to experience their first lesson in how what is intuitive is the opposite of how things work in this. ;)
 

DeftMonk

Noob
Posts like these make it pretty clear that you don’t understand how to play the game. I mean, anti-airing with ‘uppercuts’ is like red flag #1 out of 20.
Well I am not gonna be as mean as crimson or some other people in the thread but there are some weird things going on here bro that might make you think about just accepting you need to change your mindset about the game. For example as soon as you go into a jumping animation that isn't some sort of low crush that makes you immune to lows. In face in no game I have ever played is that a thing. Throw immune yes but poke immune no. Also as the main mixup of the game is strike/throw and not straight up low/overhead I don't agree with you in thinking that stuff should be punishable jsut because. The game is pretty focused on footsies in most matchups and if strings that net you all of nothing on hit become punishable or strings that can hitconfirm to a juggle but safe on block became punishable....I honestly don't know wtf people would be doing. Everyone just pick cetrion I guess? At the end of the day if the game isn't your cup of tea just go find one that is.

edit: If d2 was intended by the devs to be the go to AA move not only would the hurtbox be lowered, but (and this is the obvious thing) the d2 kb would be to counter hit a dude who is airborne. D2 is good in some scenarious to AA with but it shouldnt be like the only trick in your book.
 

Sazbak

Noob
Posts like these make it pretty clear that you don’t understand how to play the game. I mean, anti-airing with ‘uppercuts’ is like red flag #1 out of 20.
You completely ignored all the points he made except one. Also you didn't actually counter his argument even in that one point you addressed, you just simply took a condescending tone and implied some vague stuff about your perspective on antiairs.
 

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
In order to blow up the flawless block fish Crimson you have to do a microduck punish which means they can microduck you back. You are being put in a 50/50 because you tried to take your turn back. How is this hard to understand? There's no point in something being negative if there is a way for me to be directly blown up for rightfully taking my turn back.
That isn’t the only way to blow up a flawless block attempt at all lol. You can do a faster button if they’re trying to flawless block a slower one, and vice versa, you can walk back and they’ll whiff, you can microduck, you can jump, and you can throw. That’s like 6 options lol, if you know they’re fishing for a flawless block you can blow it up with any of those options easily.

You make it sound like its some fool proof thing when its not even close
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
You completely ignored all the points he made except one. Also you didn't actually counter his argument even in that one point you addressed, you just simply took a condescending tone and implied some vague stuff about your perspective on antiairs.
That's not my perspective on anti-airs; since he signed up here, he's been complaining about mechanics and situations and netcode from day one, without actually knowing simple things about how the meta works. He blames everything for losing except his own lack of skill and lack of basic knowledge about the game.

You try to help him/teach him basic meta (like how to punish things) and he just ignores it and goes right to complaining about something else.

If you won't learn basic answers to common situations, and your reaction to being stuck is to blame the game for not doing things the way you want it to (even though you don't know how it works), I have no sympathy for you.

@Hellbringer's comment was spot-on because we've both seen this happening over months.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
Well I am not gonna be as mean as crimson or some other people in the thread but there are some weird things going on here bro that might make you think about just accepting you need to change your mindset about the game. For example as soon as you go into a jumping animation that isn't some sort of low crush that makes you immune to lows. In face in no game I have ever played is that a thing. Throw immune yes but poke immune no. Also as the main mixup of the game is strike/throw and not straight up low/overhead I don't agree with you in thinking that stuff should be punishable jsut because. The game is pretty focused on footsies in most matchups and if strings that net you all of nothing on hit become punishable or strings that can hitconfirm to a juggle but safe on block became punishable....I honestly don't know wtf people would be doing. Everyone just pick cetrion I guess? At the end of the day if the game isn't your cup of tea just go find one that is.

edit: If d2 was intended by the devs to be the go to AA move not only would the hurtbox be lowered, but (and this is the obvious thing) the d2 kb would be to counter hit a dude who is airborne. D2 is good in some scenarious to AA with but it shouldnt be like the only trick in your book.
Well and I know some folks will say MK shouldn't be like Street Fighter but I view it more in a general game way, but yeah in Street Fighter I don't remember seeing such a prevalent thing of lows or low looking moves hitting as you jump. In SF you jump and you get anti-aired (a lot).

And oh if a string doesn't lead to something big then it shouldn't be some big punish or perhaps any. But if what you're doing can lead to big damage, there should be risk. What people would be doing is taking risks. I think the game just lacks enough punishment or risk taking for big damage. It's like you block something that if you hadn't you'd lose a lot of life, but then you notice even your fastest move does nothing in response heh.

And people already pick Cetrion and cheese the game out, so... ;) But that's a whole another issue...

And yeah D2's for the whole cast would change how they work, since some really really suck to begin with. And there wouldn't be a KB on airborne...but KB's are a whole subject themselves.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
That's not my perspective on anti-airs; since he signed up here, he's been complaining about mechanics and situations and netcode from day one, without actually knowing simple things about how the meta works. He blames everything for losing except his own lack of skill and lack of basic knowledge about the game.

You try to help him/teach him basic meta (like how to punish things) and he just ignores it and goes right to complaining about something else.

If you won't learn basic answers to common situations, and your reaction to being stuck is to blame the game for not doing things the way you want it to (even though you don't know how it works), I have no sympathy for you.

@Hellbringer's comment was spot-on because we've both seen this happening over months.
So you wouldn't want uppercuts to be the the go-to for anti-air's? You prefer the way it is? And like when Terminator first came out, it was like...use his D3 for anti-air's heh.

You're very focused on when i lose but like i say, my opinion doesn't change when i win. the game doesn't became super great when i win different fights. it's the still the same stuff.
And frankly, with some characters...the extra work required to win against them, sometimes i don't feel like rolling them dice...that's MK11 in a nutshell.

And as I remember past interactions with you you told me to ignore things i observed in training mode and insisted things i've seen people do they don't actually do. And that lots of stuff shouldn't be punishable (or much), even if it leads to big damage.
So well. ;)
 

craftycheese

I tried to throw a yo-yo away. It was impossible.
So you wouldn't want uppercuts to be the the go-to for anti-air's? You prefer the way it is? And like when Terminator first came out, it was like...use his D3 for anti-air's heh.
Or you could just instant air grab with Terminator. That feels so satisfying to me. Most characters can just s1 for their AA and d3 being anti airs in mk has been a thing for a long time.

I would argue that the main problem with AAs people have is that there's a lot of other things and options they have to worry about that make consistently AAing hard.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
So you wouldn't want uppercuts to be the the go-to for anti-air's? You prefer the way it is? And like when Terminator first came out, it was like...use his D3 for anti-air's heh.
There's not one right way to anti-air, and that's the way it's been in all of our games. s1, s2, d1, d3, d4, special moves, etc. are all valid anti airs. Plus any character-specific normals that happen to be good for AA (Cassie, etc).

You won't even understand what any issues with AA could be, because you don't understand how AA works in these games. That's the point. You're here complaining that someone may use a poke to AA in an NRS game.

And as I remember past interactions with you you told me to ignore things i observed in training mode and insisted things i've seen people do they don't actually do. And that lots of stuff shouldn't be punishable (or much), even if it leads to big damage.
So well. ;)
Your 'observations' were things like -12 moves being impossible to punish at jab distance away. And when we pointed out that it was just your timing/execution that was off, you blamed the game.

You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
Or you could just instant air grab with Terminator. That feels so satisfying to me. Most characters can just s1 for their AA and d3 being anti airs in mk has been a thing for a long time.

I would argue that the main problem with AAs people have is that there's a lot of other things and options they have to worry about that make consistently AAing hard.
Sure if ya got a special that can take care of things good.

S1 for AA is...well, inconsistent. How I feel is if somebody has got someone's jump...the game should not be in the way of AAing. When like that it should reward the right kind of player and discourage jump in's.

But yeah it's true there's a lot to worry about in the game and that might interfere with someone's reactions...but when they got it right game shouldn't get in their way. Even more so if there's lots of other wacky stuff to worry about in the fight.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
There's not one right way to anti-air, and that's the way it's been in all of our games. s1, s2, d1, d3, d4, special moves, etc. are all valid anti airs. Plus any character-specific normals that happen to be good for AA (Cassie, etc).

You won't even understand what any issues with AA could be, because you don't understand how AA works in these games. That's the point. You're here complaining that someone may use a poke to AA in an NRS game.
But not uppercuts, tho? ;)

In say SF5, with say Ryu I could name off 4 different AA's including the dreaded and hated anti-air jab (if still a thing). But none involve any lows...D3 or D4 is as unintuitive as it gets in this.

And it sounds like you're saying an MK game must be a certain way or it's not MK anymore...I don't really agree there. I can see how AA works, I'm saying it's janky and it could be better another way.


Your 'observations' were things like -12 moves being impossible to punish at jab distance away. And when we pointed out that it was just your timing/execution that was off, you blamed the game.

You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
That sounds like a criticism made over the online quality which was then defended by you i suppose.

I do tell folks online you gotta punish immediately to have any hope of it coming thru...as in as soon the block contact happens. Offline even with a -20 move a slight delay...just so slight, can render the move safe. Online that window can be even smaller sometimes. And that kinda burp can be costly.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Offline even with a -20 move a slight delay...just so slight, can render the move safe. Online that window can be even smaller sometimes. And that kinda burp can be costly.
No. -20 moves in punish range are nowhere close to safe. If you can't punish -20, the problem is you, and your timing -- not the frame data or the game.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
No. -20 moves in punish range are nowhere close to safe. If you can't punish -20, the problem is you, and your timing -- not the frame data or the game.
I didn't say they were safe. ;)

But in training mode i have looked at the timings for such a move, and also how much delay there can be before that window is closed to punish. I've suggested wariness that the window could get smaller online.

as of such punishment needs to happen as soon as block contact occurs. literally as soon as.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

MY SHAPE IS MY SHAPE
Premium Supporter
This revolves around the fact that all companies are making games easier so not so good players will spend more money and it will feel the makers pockets.
Little Timmy a not so good player can now press one thorw button and get 30 percent damage with little no effort and a Fatal blow by pressing 2 buttons and get 30 percent damage
Press down 2 KB into anothet down 2 get 30 percent as then down poke for last percentage of health
Meter fills for free so you can just stand there with no effort and get full bars
Companies are building games for little Timmy so he can win more which makes him happy which makes him spend more money on skins because he can play a game because it easy now.
First Person Shooters are doing this as well with guns that are OP and can be purchased behind lock boxes to make not so good players better.
This is MK11
Winning is fun if you dont have to put much effort into the game you will play it longer.
This is just a fact and I see Injustice 3 following the same trend.
This is exactly why I can't bring myself to care about competing in this game. Fuck Timmy. It's not supposed to be easy.

Also, I love that now we're starting to see big name players coming out and being honest about all the faults they find with the game now that there's no big offline competition. I'm glad for it, but I kinda rreeaallllyy wish they'd listened to the people who were saying all of 2019/2020 that this game was casual candy that was flawed down to it's DNA as far as being a serious competitive fighter.
It's Smash with blood and gore. And that's fine if you enjoy it, but it's not close to what NRS has been capable of in the past.

#FuckTimmy
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
I didn't say they were safe. ;)

But in training mode i have looked at the timings for such a move, and also how much delay there can be before that window is closed to punish. I've suggested wariness that the window could get smaller online.

as of such punishment needs to happen as soon as block contact occurs. literally as soon as.
The punish window does not get smaller online. You have to input the command 3 frames sooner because the built in delay shifts it 3 frames, and you have 5 frames of buffer to help make it all easier.

The only way a window could get smaller is if a massive rollback hid an attack so long that you never saw any of the startup, active, or block stun frames and they magically teleported into their own punish window. Not even the fastest moves in the game could have all that clipped by the max rollback size for online. It's technically something that could happen with a rollback, but not for this game and the way it implemented it.

-20f is super punishable, but it is also pretty quick in real world time. If you aren't sure what's happening, what your options are, are kind of sloppy, or generally not well versed in what to do, that window is supposed to slip by on occasion. You have to prove you aren't letting them get away with dumb stuff or they get to keep running you over with dumb stuff. That's literally part of the gig. Not the MK11 gig, fighting games at large gig.
 

Lt. Boxy Angelman

MY SHAPE IS MY SHAPE
Premium Supporter
There's not one right way to anti-air, and that's the way it's been in all of our games. s1, s2, d1, d3, d4, special moves, etc. are all valid anti airs. Plus any character-specific normals that happen to be good for AA (Cassie, etc).

You won't even understand what any issues with AA could be, because you don't understand how AA works in these games. That's the point. You're here complaining that someone may use a poke to AA in an NRS game.


Your 'observations' were things like -12 moves being impossible to punish at jab distance away. And when we pointed out that it was just your timing/execution that was off, you blamed the game.

You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
Don't do it, Crimson. You fight the goddamn winking (sorry, Jesus) and you end up with it haunting your nightmares for days. I tried. It just made me hate myself even more. And you may remember how strongly I feel about MK11 being a total miss, but this guy will literally turn your arguments inside out and barf on them just so he can wink at you when it's over. It isn't worth it. He's not arguing with you because he wants to prove his point.
Please. Argue with me instead. I beg you. Yell at me for thinking the strike-throw meta is poison. Tell me I'm foolish for thinking the game is terrible in spite of all it's major tournaments being worth watching. Explain to me for the hundredth time how it's MY fault and not the game's if I can't punish something consistently that's painfully negative. I'll listen, I swear. Just please, don't fall into the winking pit. You're too good an egg to end up down that abyssal mineshaft.
 

Hellbringer

1 2 3 drink
Premium Supporter
Don't do it, Crimson. You fight the goddamn winking (sorry, Jesus) and you end up with it haunting your nightmares for days. I tried. It just made me hate myself even more. And you may remember how strongly I feel about MK11 being a total miss, but this guy will literally turn your arguments inside out and barf on them just so he can wink at you when it's over. It isn't worth it. He's not arguing with you because he wants to prove his point.
Please. Argue with me instead. I beg you. Yell at me for thinking the strike-throw meta is poison. Tell me I'm foolish for thinking the game is terrible in spite of all it's major tournaments being worth watching. Explain to me for the hundredth time how it's MY fault and not the game's if I can't punish something consistently that's painfully negative. I'll listen, I swear. Just please, don't fall into the winking pit. You're too good an egg to end up down that abyssal mineshaft.
Can you keep your cringe in the fchamp thread pls.
 

DoDaMuSiC

Ermac ftw
Oh I have done pretty detailed explanations before but then the person I'd speak to would lose interest, and just say i'm not right or that nobody actually does such and such in a fight, etc. one person told me what i was seeing in training mode simply wasn't real (heh).
So wasn't much motivation for me to gather buncha info. Like breaking down an interaction in a fight and the different things that can or can't happen.

But some specific things I could point out that don't need alot info:

1. The way it should work is if you got somebody's jump-in you should be able to hit your uppercut and anti-air them. With few exceptions it doesn't work like that. So then you have to try make other moves work and may still not work. Meanwhile people get away with things they really shouldn't and it hurts the game.

2. Krushing Blows look great visually but gameplay-wise tend to amount to random bursts of big damage that makes things feel less earned. And encouraging mashing D2 seems bad.

3. Folks should be able to jump over projectiles unless they are late. Right now you can do it really only by anticipating (maybe).

4. Game needs more punishment in general, and the powerful cheesy stuff needs to be punishable by anything really. And nix all the pushback on block and reliance on (hopefully) advancing strings or moves.
I'm still of a mind if something leads to big damage...it should also lead to big punishment if it don't work out.

5. the poking game and throw meta as it is should be retired. It has connection to the mash D2 thing too. D1 throw shouldn't occupy a major percentage of the game anyways.

6. some folks will maintain the online is perfect or just about, but i'd say the game is affected by it and become cheesefests. Even at low MS there can be issues...but average games will be 130-150, other times instabilities can push higher. And if it's USA vs. Brazil...bleh.
But some folks maintain it's great...i heard that before in other fighting games tho heh.

7. on a quick subject of character design I think Sub Zero is obnoxiously designed in the confines of the game. Slide is unreactable anyways at medium or short range, but online at long range too...plus KB attached. When his projectile trades, he gets knocked down and still has time to walk over and take a combo.
50/50 (or more) from f2 is nonsense. plus other shenanigans.
Wouldn't be so bad if obnoxiousness cheese was evenly spread in the game but it's not.
But yeah, some people will downplay Sub. ;)
I could go into others.

8. like i mentioned earlier about hitboxes and hurtboxes...if for example you are not on the ground you really shouldn't be hit by a low or low looking move and snapped back down to the ground.
I also find it interesting how in a game where anti-airing is so iffy, various moves will easily hit characters who are jumping into the air, the beginning of the jump.

So examples of points I'd make...I know some folks will dismiss it whole cloth of a know nothing, but well. ;)
@ScrubQuotes