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Five Ways MK11 Diminishes Defense

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.

People have noted they want cliffnotes before watching the video so, I'm just gonna briefly sum up what I discuss in here.

1: Throws
2: Breakaways
3: Poke System
4: Anti Airs
5: Flawless Blocking
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Geezus..

This is a top 3 all-time defensive title from Midway/NRS alongside Injustice 1 and MK2. Even Injustice 1, which was marked for strong defensive archetypes (Aquaman, Black Adam, Sinestro, Martian, etc.) also had extremely offense-heavy ones (Bane, Flash, Doomsday etc).

You are going to want to have some kind of offense in every fighting game, and especially in an MK game. Without throws, etc, the meta would be extremely stagnant and the pacing glacial.

Also, flawless blocking is by nature an incredibly strong defensive mechanic.

Whatever this game is that you’re trying to turn MK11 into, it’s definitely not one that I’d like to play. Good lord.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
Geezus..

This is a top 3 all-time defensive title from Midway/NRS alongside Injustice 1 and MK2. Even Injustice 1, which was marked for strong defensive archetypes (Aquaman, Black Adam, Sinestro, Martian, etc.) also had extremely offense-heavy ones (Bane, Flash, Doomsday etc).

You are going to want to have some kind of offense in every fighting game, and especially in an MK game. Without throws, etc, the meta would be extremely stagnant and the pacing glacial.

Also, flawless blocking is by nature an incredibly strong defensive mechanic.

Whatever this game is that you’re trying to turn MK11 into, it’s definitely not one that I’d like to play. Good lord.
"Also, flawless blocking is by nature an incredibly strong defensive mechanic."

Except it isn't. Look at the way it's used in tournament. It's used to turn every 0 to -4 stagger into a 50/50 scenario.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
"Also, flawless blocking is by nature an incredibly strong defensive mechanic."

Except it isn't. Look at the way it's used in tournament. It's used to turn every 0 to -4 stagger into a 50/50 scenario.
It's only a '50/50' if you're hard-committing to something potentially unsafe every single time. At that point, you're being punished for predictable offense. Which is the nature of strong defense.
 

Chernyy Volk

Wolf lord, footsie bully, chronic corner abuser.
It's only a '50/50' if you're hard-committing to something potentially unsafe every single time. At that point, you're being punished for predictable offense. Which is the nature of strong defense.
In order to blow up the flawless block fish Crimson you have to do a microduck punish which means they can microduck you back. You are being put in a 50/50 because you tried to take your turn back. How is this hard to understand? There's no point in something being negative if there is a way for me to be directly blown up for rightfully taking my turn back.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
In order to blow up the flawless block fish Crimson you have to do a microduck punish which means they can microduck you back. You are being put in a 50/50 because you tried to take your turn back. How is this hard to understand? There's no point in something being negative if there is a way for me to be directly blown up for rightfully taking my turn back.
I've noticed that this young generation of players seems to have an extremely linear way of looking at fighting games. "If my opponent does X then I should always be able to do Y, and Y should always work, every time, without me having to think about it".

You need to just admit that you don't like thinking and making reads. You want to be able to autopilot predictable responses because it makes you feel comfortable.

Spoiler: fighting games have never worked this way, not from ST till now. If you feel you're "punished" for maybe having to stop and make a read before you press a button, it says more about you than it does about the actual history of fighting game meta till this point.

And getting you to think or be patient before you press buttons is the entire point of strong defensive mechanics.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
Eh basically every aspect of the gameplay in MK11 needs rethinking. People say Smash is a party game but that's all MK11 really is too.

And the online is horrible. You can never expect the game to follow its own rules.

It's still amazing to me how the game can be so well produced in every other way except the gameplay for PVP, and this isn't their first rodeo.
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
And the online is horrible. You can never expect the game to follow its own rules.
How so? EVO came running to MK11 and KI once Covid turned it into an online event, because they have outstanding netcode in comparison to other FGs.

I just finished watching a seven-minute video of Trump eating beans straight out of the can, uninterrupted.
This thread makes me want to watch that video again.
I need to see this.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
In order to blow up the flawless block fish Crimson you have to do a microduck punish which means they can microduck you back. You are being put in a 50/50 because you tried to take your turn back. How is this hard to understand? There's no point in something being negative if there is a way for me to be directly blown up for rightfully taking my turn back.
To be fair, this has been a thing in fighters forever. Invincible dp's work the same way but at least in that situation theres more of a cut and dry risk reward involved.
 
This revolves around the fact that all companies are making games easier so not so good players will spend more money and it will feel the makers pockets.
Little Timmy a not so good player can now press one thorw button and get 30 percent damage with little no effort and a Fatal blow by pressing 2 buttons and get 30 percent damage
Press down 2 KB into anothet down 2 get 30 percent as then down poke for last percentage of health
Meter fills for free so you can just stand there with no effort and get full bars
Companies are building games for little Timmy so he can win more which makes him happy which makes him spend more money on skins because he can play a game because it easy now.
First Person Shooters are doing this as well with guns that are OP and can be purchased behind lock boxes to make not so good players better.
This is MK11
Winning is fun if you dont have to put much effort into the game you will play it longer.
This is just a fact and I see Injustice 3 following the same trend.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
How so? EVO came running to MK11 and KI once Covid turned it into an online event, because they have outstanding netcode in comparison to other FGs.
Well even so the running joke was that Brazil would dominate EVO Online. :p

But yeah playing online, KL etc...you cannot count on the game even keeping within its rules, every fight you have to try to identify any particular things to adapt to in the online quality, and that's before thinking about the other person and the inherent flaws of the base game design. And this all within a fight or a set.

When I block someone's D1 and I hit my D1 yet am hit by their 2nd D1 (mash it out!) that's a bad sign... :eek:
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
This revolves around the fact that all companies are making games easier so not so good players will spend more money and it will feel the makers pockets.
Little Timmy a not so good player can now press one thorw button and get 30 percent damage with little no effort and a Fatal blow by pressing 2 buttons and get 30 percent damage
Press down 2 KB into anothet down 2 get 30 percent as then down poke for last percentage of health
Meter fills for free so you can just stand there with no effort and get full bars
Companies are building games for little Timmy so he can win more which makes him happy which makes him spend more money on skins because he can play a game because it easy now.
First Person Shooters are doing this as well with guns that are OP and can be purchased behind lock boxes to make not so good players better.
This is MK11
Winning is fun if you dont have to put much effort into the game you will play it longer.
This is just a fact and I see Injustice 3 following the same trend.
Mk11 and sfv really went hard with this. Gotta reduce that skill gap.
 

Wrenchfarm

Lexcorp Proprietary Technologies
I've noticed that this young generation of players seems to have an extremely linear way of looking at fighting games. "If my opponent does X then I should always be able to do Y, and Y should always work, every time, without me having to think about it".
I feel like I see this more for MK11 than I have for any other game. It's the same mentality where people are screaming about "hitbox issues" when one or two strings whiff on a couple of characters under specific circumstances, or a combo that doesn't work on small bodies. In any other community that would just get filed away under "match up knowledge" but here you see twitter brigades trying to get it fixed like a bug.

Same with the absolute salt on breakaway. Like yes, there are definitely things that could be done to improve that system, it's not perfect. But the criticism here is "I got a punish opportunity, I didn't get full value out of it because my opponent broke, I'm MAD." Like, yeah? Your opponent spent the specific resource that gets him out of a punish or a bad read. That's what it's there for and you getto do it too. You'd think MK11 was the first game to have a burst, breaker, combo-breaker, or save-tag, etc by the way some people act about it.

Same with "I can only take 7 throws (and then some chip with a character designed to get more chip damage)". Eating 7 throws is a lot! Trying to think about to SFIV and I bet it was around the same amount to kill (maybe 8 or so). If you don't want a crazy rushdown 50/50 game like MKX, you need strong throws to open up offense. I don't know what else to say.

MK11 is not perfect, there are a million little things that bug me about it. Even some of these things I do agree could stand tweaking. But the tone of a lot of the complaining in this community is unreal.
 

Gooberking

Solidly Mediocre
Online does add a few frames of input lag so it does make things a bit harder to react to.
It's 3 frames on you (the counter attacker), and there might be some more clipped off of the first person's startup frames due to rollback. It's unlikely you lose so many that you can't counter poke because you just didn't see enough of it happen to block and poke back since the over all active + blockstun frames is plenty large enough be seen in all but really unplayable connections. I think autopausing would kick in after 7 frames and delay things anyway you really aren't seriously playing in a connection that bad. I've also managed to counter poke Hellbringer more than once and we have a 200ms ping which is far from ideal.

At any rate, it's also not a design problem near as much as a science problem, so bashing the creators over it is kind of not super valid. Maybe If pokes were like 3f like in SFV you could say the design poorly deals with the reality of internet travel time, but they aren't so I'm thinking it's a press faster situation. We have like 5 frames of buffer now even to help with that the attacker doesn't get so there is that too
 

Gaxkang

Noob
I feel like I see this more for MK11 than I have for any other game. It's the same mentality where people are screaming about "hitbox issues" when one or two strings whiff on a couple of characters under specific circumstances, or a combo that doesn't work on small bodies. In any other community that would just get filed away under "match up knowledge" but here you see twitter brigades trying to get it fixed like a bug.
Hitbox/hurtbox stuff goes way beyond that sorta thing. It's a foundational prob of the game and NRS's way of doing things really.
 

Wrenchfarm

Lexcorp Proprietary Technologies
Hitbox/hurtbox stuff goes way beyond that sorta thing. It's a foundational prob of the game and NRS's way of doing things really.
You want to talk about a fatal blow hitting someone behind their back? Yup, I'm in total agreement.

You want to scream at the devs on twitter because Lui Kang's 212 whiffs on a few ducking opponents who block the first hit depending on spacing, position, phase of the moon? GTFO.
 

Gaxkang

Noob
You want to talk about a fatal blow hitting someone behind their back? Yup, I'm in total agreement.

You want to scream at the devs on twitter because Lui Kang's 212 whiffs on a few ducking opponents who block the first hit depending on spacing, position, phase of the moon? GTFO.
Nah man, I'm talking more foundational than that sort of thing. I'm talkin the root! :D And somebody complaining Liu whiffing somewhere needs to just hold on, since Liu has enough great stuff going for him anyways lol

But NRS may want to consider, maybe in 10 years, letting people jump over projectiles. Maybe not having lows or low looking moves hit when you're not on the ground. Maybe making anti-airing work and work the way someone would expect it to.
Just in general things hit weird and it's something people really shouldn't have to get used to and be boxed in with. And being boxed in gameplay-wise is already a huge thing in MK11, as to what you can do and how you can play.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
It's 3 frames on you (the counter attacker), and there might be some more clipped off of the first person's startup frames due to rollback. It's unlikely you lose so many that you can't counter poke because you just didn't see enough of it happen to block and poke back since the over all active + blockstun frames is plenty large enough be seen in all but really unplayable connections. I think autopausing would kick in after 7 frames and delay things anyway you really aren't seriously playing in a connection that bad. I've also managed to counter poke Hellbringer more than once and we have a 200ms ping which is far from ideal.

At any rate, it's also not a design problem near as much as a science problem, so bashing the creators over it is kind of not super valid. Maybe If pokes were like 3f like in SFV you could say the design poorly deals with the reality of internet travel time, but they aren't so I'm thinking it's a press faster situation. We have like 5 frames of buffer now even to help with that the attacker doesn't get so there is that too
All I said was its harder to react online due to the added frame lag. I didnt know you two had a history but a fact is a fact lol. I didnt bash anyone.