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Guide - Fisticuffs Fisticuffs Guide

Devin Thorn

chimp damage
Any tips versus subzero? Really struggling there
Grandmaster? I'm assuming you're talking him or Unbreakable, who can honestly be tougher than GM but there aren't many good Unbreakables. For GM a simple tip is meter conservation for ex shadow kick to get through klones mid screen, you gotta just be patient and when you get in be smart with your pressure and watch wake up ice clones. Can't stress how important having meter for ex force balls and shadow kicks is. DJT played Tom Brady's Sub quite well there should be match footage of that in the general discussion thread
 

Frosted 57

Reforming Lurker
Any tips versus subzero? Really struggling there
You didn't specify a variation(even though I'm assuming Grandmaster), so I wrote up this quick mini matchup guide of things to know. If you want more let me know and I'll see what I can do. I have the least experience versus Unbreakable, but everything I said is accurate.

All Variations
Johnny has a lot of issues since he cannot reliably anti-air or punish Sub's 50/50 game if its being spaced properly.

b2 is -13 and punishes vary on range. Dumb subs who do it upclose you can punish with a lot of things honestly, but at the proper spacing f3 is a tight and sometimes unreliable punish. This is due to the fact that you can't reversal a normal and it is already an 11 frame move. Reversal BF4 will always punish though. d4 is also 11 frames and depending on spacing can be an acceptable punish/pressure tool. Especially since unlike f3 it does not leave you in a bad position if blocked.

b33 is -8 and no real punish exists. b33d4 can be punished though since its -12 and doesn't push back.

At full screen Johnny can crouch under an Ice Ball, throw a Forceball and still be able to crouch under the next Ice Ball. In fact you can even throw an Ex Forceball if you want.

The only move he has in any of his variations that can armor through b121 is Icy Slide. So be aware since Cage can full combo punish this on block.

Cryomancer
Matchup is fine. There is a gap whenever he uses Frost Hammer so you can back dash or Ex Nut Punch for a full combo. It is only -10 though so again, no reliable punish exists since it pushes you out of reversal throw range.
Also know that you are at neutral after his f42(1+3)

Grandmaster
Matchup isn't fun. Honestly this is probably one of Fisticuffs worst matchups.

b2 you can no longer punish this with reversal BF4 if there is a clone out. You will need to ExBF4. d4 will still work in most situations.
If the b2 is not spaced well in the corner or elsewere you can punish with reversal ExBD3 for a combo. So make sure you're opponent is spacing the b2 properly. Do not let him get away with doing it too close.

Now... how to deal with clone with Fisticuffs. It is not as easy as it is for other characters. Here are a couple of things to note.
Johnny does not have any great moves to hit Sub through clone. Most of his hit and hurt boxes are fairly close.
With a clone out how far you are from it is very important. If you are very close to the clone d3 can hit sub without freezing while d4 cannot. If you are a little further from the clone d4 can hit sub without freezing while d3 cannot. Another very good tool is b121. The hurt-box is pretty short for this move. So while the hit-box isn't far reaching, it reaches enough to hit sub if he is close without freezing you if he isn't. b2 will hit sub if he is close without freezing but if sub isn't there you will get frozen. Sweep will also hit Sub through clone if he is there but will freeze Johnny if he is not. Also sweep is punishable on block so this isn't generally reccommended.

Johnny also cannot normally jump over clone. If is too close he freezes on the startup of his jump and if he is further back he doesn't clear it. THE ONLY WAY TO JUMP OVER CLONE IS TO SPACE IT RIGHT AND DO A JUMP 3. This alters his hurt-box enough to avoid the clone.

Now if sub is there jump 1, jump 2 and jump3 can each catch him if he is standing. Though each of them have very different timings for doing so.

Barging through Clone with ExBF4 is what a lot of people would want to do. While it is nessecary to use do not rely on it. It should be more of a threat than anything else since it is safe on block but can be full punished if it is neutral crouched. Also you are spending a bar of meter to inflict 12% and deal with one of his meterless moves. This is not an ideal trade for you since it also pushes him full screen(you can run up and pressure though).

If needed though you can punish most Clone cancels on block with reversal ExBF4, just not f4xxClone.

An important thing to learn when fighting Grandmaster is that you do not need to always be aggressive. If you have the lead, SIT ON IT. Make him come to you. As stated above at full screen you can counter zone him if that is what he is trying to do.

Unbreakable
Neither regular nor Ex Counter can be used through b121. outside of that same rules apply. You just need to be more careful with staggers due to his counter and aware of the lack of chip damage you will be doing. Frozen Aura is safe to activate on block and negates all chip, even if you have Fist Bump active(Yes it sucks big time). However, know that even though chip is prevented you still gain meter when he blocks your attacks.
 
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Wigy

There it is...
You didn't specify a variation(even though I'm assuming Grandmaster), so I wrote up this quick mini matchup guide of things to know. If you want more let me know and I'll see what I can do. I have the least experience versus Unbreakable, but everything I said is accurate.

All Variations
Johnny has a lot of issues since he cannot reliably anti-air or punish Sub's 50/50 game if its being spaced properly.

b2 is -13 and punishes vary on range. Dumb subs who do it upclose you can punish with a lot of things honestly, but at the proper spacing f3 is a tight and sometimes unreliable punish. This is due to the fact that you can't reversal a normal and it is already an 11 frame move. Reversal BF4 will always punish though. d4 is also 11 frames and depending on spacing can be an acceptable punish/pressure tool. Especially since unlike f3 it does not leave you in a bad position if blocked.

b33 is -8 and no real punish exists. b33d4 can be punished though since its -12 and doesn't push back.

At full screen Johnny can crouch under an Ice Ball, throw a Forceball and still be able to crouch under the next Ice Ball. In fact you can even throw an Ex Forceball if you want.

The only move he has in any of his variations that can armor through b121 is Icy Slide. So be aware since Cage can full combo punish this on block.

Cryomancer
Matchup is fine. There is a gap whenever he uses Frost Hammer so you can back dash or Ex Nut Punch for a full combo. It is only -10 though so again, no reliable punish exists since it pushes you out of reversal throw range.
Also know that you are at neutral after his f42(1+3)

Grandmaster
Matchup isn't fun. Honestly this is probably one of Fisticuffs worst matchups.

b2 you can no longer punish this with reversal BF4 if there is a clone out. You will need to ExBF4. d4 will still work in most situations.
If the b2 is not spaced well in the corner or elsewere you can punish with reversal ExBD3 for a combo. So make sure you're opponent is spacing the b2 properly. Do not let him get away with doing it too close.

Now... how to deal with clone with Fisticuffs. It is not as easy as it is for other characters. Here are a couple of things to note.
Johnny does not have any great moves to hit Sub through clone. Most of his hit and hurt boxes are fairly close.
With a clone out how far you are from it is very important. If you are very close to the clone d3 can hit sub without freezing while d4 cannot. If you are a little further from the clone d4 can hit sub without freezing while d3 cannot. Another very good tool is b121. The hurt-box is pretty short for this move. So while the hit-box isn't far reaching, it reaches enough to hit sub if he is close without freezing you if he isn't. b2 will hit sub if he is close without freezing but if sub isn't there you will get frozen. Sweep will also hit Sub through clone if he is there but will freeze Johnny if he is not. Also sweep is punishable on block so this isn't generally reccommended.

Johnny also cannot normally jump over clone. If is too close he freezes on the startup of his jump and if he is further back he doesn't clear it. THE ONLY WAY TO JUMP OVER CLONE IS TO SPACE IT RIGHT AND DO A JUMP 3. This alters his hurt-box enough to avoid the clone.

Now if sub is there jump 1, jump 2 and jump3 can each catch him if he is standing. Though each of them have very different timings for doing so.

Barging through Clone with ExBF4 is what a lot of people would want to do. While it is nessecary to use do not rely on it. It should be more of a threat than anything else since it is safe on block but can be full punished if it is neutral crouched. Also you are spending a bar of meter to inflict 12% and deal with one of his meterless moves. This is not an ideal trade for you since it also pushes him full screen(you can run up and pressure though).

If needed though you can punish most Clone cancels on block with reversal ExBF4, just not f4xxClone.

An important thing to learn when fighting Grandmaster is that you do not need to always be aggressive. If you have the lead, SIT ON IT. Make him come to you. As stated above at full screen you can counter zone him if that is what he is trying to do.

Unbreakable
Neither regular nor Ex Counter can be used through b121. outside of that same rules apply. You just need to be more careful with staggers due to his counter and aware of the lack of chip damage you will be doing. Frozen Aura is safe to activate on block and negates all chip, even if you have Fist Bump active(Yes it sucks big time). However, know that even though chip is prevented you still gain meter when he blocks your attacks.
Thats a big help, i end up having to use stunt double cause he can control the flow of the match entirely. I can get a forceball here and there but the fact he gets free 50/50s which i can barely punish all match its really dumb.

Basically just try get him in the corner and molest him to death.

Can't yolo d4 all game either. Really hate subzero
 

Frosted 57

Reforming Lurker
Any tips regarding Thundergod? I'm having a lot of troubles mostly due to his range and the fact tha he can punish f3 and f3,4. @Frosted 57
Thunder God can be rough due to his 6 frame f1 and the fact that every time you block he pushes you out to the range you never want to be at.

He cannot armor through b121. ExBF3 and ExDF2 will both trade with it though. He can back dash but you can punish that with a f3xxBD3 if you read it. In fact if you do b121, and he back dashes on the 2 you recover in time to still punish with f3xxBD3. Granted it isn't easy.

Basically d4 is your most important tool. It can avoid most of his strings, especially at the range his lightning strings push you out to, and allow you to start pressure. In fact d4 blows up ALL of Raiden's wakeups except Ex Electric Fly (ExBF3), but since that is so unsafe and doesn't lead to a combo most Raiden's do not go to that very often. For each of the others, (Ex Vicinity Blast, Ex Shocker, Ex Rising Thunder), d4 wins. The d4 will hit the armor and low profile the move allowing for a full punish or a throw to switch sides. Ex Vicinity Blast (ExDB2) stays in place and is the easiest to punish. Ex Rising Thunder (ExDB3) crosses over you but is still easy to punish. Ex Shocker (ExDF2) you need to hold down for a few frames to remain crouching through the remaining active frames, then you can full combo punish. This is relevant mostly after a throw, a Shadow Kick or a b2xxFist Bump.

Outside of this, I do not have a great deal of matchup exp for more in depth knowledge.

Side Note; These responses do take time so if you think they are worth anything please "like" them. I am aware it is any arbitrary thing, but it does help me convince myself that I'm not wasting my time keeping this thread up to date and responding to everyone I can. Thanks.
 

NariTuba

disMember
Side Note; These responses do take time so if you think they are worth anything please "like" them. I am aware it is any arbitrary thing, but it does help me convince myself that I'm not wasting my time keeping this thread up to date and responding to everyone I can. Thanks.
Good stuff man, keep it going
 

Devin Thorn

chimp damage
What have you found fighting Jax? Seems like you gotta wiff punish more and use reversals because he is so safe on a lot of his strings I've noticed.
 
I didnt know but maybe its common knowledge. There must be a hole in between b12 and b1. So b12*gap*b1. I was playing a cassie cage player and she could do that dumb summersault move every single time after b2. And no, I was not staggering the string
 

Devin Thorn

chimp damage
I didnt know but maybe its common knowledge. There must be a hole in between b12 and b1. So b12*gap*b1. I was playing a cassie cage player and she could do that dumb summersault move every single time after b2. And no, I was not staggering the string
A smart strategy with fisticuffs cage is baiting reversals and back dashes mid screen if they show knowledge on how to play you. Name yes after every 2 there is a gap that can be back dashed or armored through. Corner game is a whole other animal though :)
 

Frosted 57

Reforming Lurker
What have you found fighting Jax? Seems like you gotta wiff punish more and use reversals because he is so safe on a lot of his strings I've noticed.
The Jax matchup is a little strange because both of you want to be doing the same thing. Pressing buttons while keeping the opponent scared to press buttons. So an important thing is to not be afraid to press buttons, I'll elaborate.

First with b121, all of Jax's armored specials can punish in the gap, specifically ExBF2d which leads into a full combo. So you need to be wary when using this string and be willing to stagger blocks. However don't block too often unless he is showing his ability to armor through.

Many of Jax's go-to strings begin with Highs or Mids that can be low profiled. Thanks to this Johnny can go nuts with d4. If Jax is staggering or you know he is going to press a button often d4 will answer it. You must be aware that d4 is not always the answer. Jax's 11 is plus 2 on block, which means if you block it he can do almost whatever he wants. If he goes to d1d2 or some other true mid it will beat d4. In those situations you would need to either armor through or continue blocking.

d1d2 string is not a true combo, if you get hit by the d1 you can still block the d2. When this string is blocked it leaves Jax at -7 but it does recover very quick so you need to be ready to pressure and again you need to be ready in case he attempts to armor through your response.

After Jax's f3 there is always a gap you can ExBD3 through for a full combo.

Heavy Weapons
The Law Rocket cancels are negative on block, but they do recover very quick which makes it tough to stop unless you are more comfortable in the match. At full screen if Jax blocks a Forceball you can throw a second Forceball and still be able to block the rocket. Also it is possible to d4 under the rocket though the timing is touchy and you need to do the d4 very early, basically as the rocket is shot.

Energy Wave (Pumped Up & Wrestler)
Do not let him get away with pressuring with energy wave on block. You can neutral crouch it on reaction and punish. You can get a full combo but the timing is a little tight but not too bad, but at the bare minimum go for an uppercut or a d4. Some strings into energy wave push back further than others making punishes harder, at these ranges d4 is sometimes your best punish. Also Ex Energy Wave is -3 on block, so press buttons.

Pumped Up
The only real difference is the fact that he has a full screen ground pound and air ground pound. Not much to say here except know they exist and avoid them when you can.

Wrestler
He has a tic throw with 12d3xxCommand Grab. Learning the block back dash OS is very helpful as it lets you back dash the grab but block the low so you are safe with whatever option he goes to.

The gist of the Jax matchup is to not be afraid to press buttons while also not being afraid to block. It sounds weird, but basically press buttons when you feel you should but if you aren't sure just block and wait for your moment. Don't take a full combo just because you were trying to mash out d1.

You specifically mentioned whiff punishing, but whiff punishing is something you need to be doing in every matchup. I haven't really noticed anything in particular in the Jax matchup that you need to whiff punish "more". Most strings in this game have really long recovery times, which means if someone misses completely it can be fairly easy to punish them. By long recovery I mean like 20+ frames.

**Edit; One thing I had meant to specifically mention is that Jax's 1 is 6 frames and his d1 is 7 frames while Johnny's 1 and b1 are 9 frames and his d1 is 8 frames. This fact makes it so that when you are at neutral it is almost like Jax has advantage anyway. This can be one of the most frustrating parts of the matchup. There isn't an easy way to deal with this other than what I had already said of being willing to block without being scared. All in all I believe Jax wins the matchup as of now, but it is close. Likely 6-4 at worst 5-5 at best.
 
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Devin Thorn

chimp damage
The Jax matchup is a little strange because both of you want to be doing the same thing. Pressing buttons while keeping the opponent scared to press buttons. So an important thing is to not be afraid to press buttons, I'll elaborate.

First with b121, all of Jax's armored specials can punish in the gap, specifically ExBF2d which leads into a full combo. So you need to be wary when using this string and be willing to stagger blocks. However don't block too often unless he is showing his ability to armor through.

Many of Jax's go-to strings begin with Highs or Mids that can be low profiled. Thanks to this Johnny can go nuts with d4. If Jax is staggering or you know he is going to press a button often d4 will answer it. You must be aware that d4 is not always the answer. Jax's 11 is plus 2 on block, which means if you block it he can do almost whatever he wants. If he goes to d1d2 or some other true mid it will beat d4. In those situations you would need to either armor through or continue blocking.

d1d2 string is not a true combo, if you get hit by the d1 you can still block the d2. When this string is blocked it leaves Jax at -7 but it does recover very quick so you need to be ready to pressure and again you need to be ready in case he attempts to armor through your response.

After Jax's f3 there is always a gap you can ExBD3 through for a full combo.

Heavy Weapons
The Law Rocket cancels are negative on block, but they do recover very quick which makes it tough to stop unless you are more comfortable in the match. At full screen if Jax blocks a Forceball you can throw a second Forceball and still be able to block the rocket. Also it is possible to d4 under the rocket though the timing is touchy and you need to do the d4 very early, basically as the rocket is shot.

Energy Wave (Pumped Up & Wrestler)
Do not let him get away with pressuring with energy wave on block. You can neutral crouch it on reaction and punish. You can get a full combo but the timing is a little tight but not too bad, but at the bare minimum go for an uppercut or a d4. Some strings into energy wave push back further than others making punishes harder, at these ranges d4 is sometimes your best punish. Also Ex Energy Wave is -3 on block, so press buttons.

Pumped Up
The only real difference is the fact that he has a full screen ground pound and air ground pound. Not much to say here except know they exist and avoid them when you can.

Wrestler
He has a tic throw with 12d3xxCommand Grab. Learning the block back dash OS is very helpful as it lets you back dash the grab but block the low so you are safe with whatever option he goes to.

The gist of the Jax matchup is to not be afraid to press buttons while also not being afraid to block. It sounds weird, but basically press buttons when you feel you should but if you aren't sure just block and wait for your moment. Don't take a full combo just because you were trying to mash out d1.

You specifically mentioned whiff punishing, but whiff punishing is something you need to be doing in every matchup. I haven't really noticed anything in particular in the Jax matchup that you need to whiff punish "more". Most strings in this game have really long recovery times, which means if someone misses completely it can be fairly easy to punish them. By long recovery I mean like 20+ frames.
Very informative, definitely is a battle. This helped greatly
 

Frosted 57

Reforming Lurker
It looks bad, I'm on Xbox so I can't confirm anything yet. When I get my hands on it I will do some testing to find out how bad this actually is, I do not want to overreact until then.

**Edit; I will be doing a full write up of everything this affects as well as adjusting the guide once I have access to the patch.
 
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ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
It looks bad, I'm on Xbox so I can't confirm anything yet. When I get my hands on it I will do some testing to find out how bad this actually is, I do not want to overreact until then.
I tested it, and believe me, its beyond bad xD His main tool of pressure is just away. -3 scares nobody, and now it's very easy to punish the staggers of the string with a poke.

People just got scared of DJT. But the speed bag was ok as it was. At most I would have put it to -1. Now fisti is sadly the worst variation no doubt.
 

Hawfy

"Martini Shot"
That is the less of our problems xD Now he has 0 true pressure...and he needed it.
Oh i know that im just letting the people know we lost our best mid screen meterless damaging combo along with our pressure and not to mention our mids still wiffing on crouching characters and the stunt double bugs.
 

Asodimazze

https://twitter.com/AlfioZacco
Oh i know that im just letting the people know we lost our best mid screen meterless damaging combo along with our pressure and not to mention our mids still wiffing on crouching characters and the stunt double bugs.
I don't know how hard it is to get f24 b12 run 12 f3 nut now, but you can always do f24 12, run 12 f3 nut. it's 26%.
Or go crazy and try f24 d1 f24 d1 f3nut for 28%
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
Oh i know that im just letting the people know we lost our best mid screen meterless damaging combo along with our pressure and not to mention our mids still wiffing on crouching characters and the stunt double bugs.
Oh, sorry, now I got what you said...
The startup of b12 being slower makes harder the combo for sure, especially online. This nerf is so ridiculous...xD

Hope nrs fix this in some way.
 

Hawfy

"Martini Shot"
B12 was way easier than 12 especially online & F24 doesnt hit consistently out side of A-List.
 

ismael4790

Stay focused or get Caged
We have to make nrs change their mind. People cried and get kitana and kenshi buffs. We could get Cage back xD