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Guide - Hellfire Fireball Cancel Frame-Data

JTB123

JTB123

>>R2 - BF4 = Unblockable.
@HeroesNZ Would you mind posting what you used for testing to determine these numbers?

I've been meaning to test this for a while and just got done going through the strings you listed and this is what I determined. I used Cassie's flip kick reversal as they can be used for frame perfect punishes. Scorpion does lack several intervals of his strings but he does have the following:

D1 = 6 frames
D3 = 7 frames
D2 = 8 frames
S4 = 10 frames
B1/B3 = 11 frames
F3 = 12 frames
F2 = 15 frames
B2 = 17 frames

So he lacks something for 9,13,14,16 frames however you can use what he does have to test most of it and fill in the blanks with educated guests.

214 RC = +18 minimum (slowest move that jails or trades is B2)
214 DC = +5 (slowest move that jails or trades is B1)
21 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
B1 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
B12 RC = -1 (nothing trades)
4 RC = +15 (slowest move that jails or trades is F2)
114 RC = -1 (nothing trades, this feels horrendously negativem it was tough to even block Cassie's reversal flip kick)
123 RC = +10 (slowest move that jails or trades is S4)
B3 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
F3 RC = +11 (slowest move that jails or trades is S4, throw wins)

@Eddy Wang
@Slips
@Juggs
@Scoot Magee
@Vagrant
@STRYKIE
@YOMI MITYEAP

The more people that can test these the better, if we're all getting consitent results then in theory we can accurate data.
 
STRYKIE

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
JTB123 said:
@HeroesNZ Would you mind posting what you used for testing to determine these numbers?

I've been meaning to test this for a while and just got done going through the strings you listed and this is what I determined. I used Cassie's flip kick reversal as they can be used for frame perfect punishes. Scorpion does lack several intervals of his strings but he does have the following:

D1 = 6 frames
D3 = 7 frames
D2 = 8 frames
S4 = 10 frames
B1/B3 = 11 frames
F3 = 12 frames
F2 = 15 frames
B2 = 17 frames

So he lacks something for 9,13,14,16 frames however you can use what he does have to test most of it and fill in the blanks with educated guests.

214 RC = +18 minimum (slowest move that jails or trades is B2)
214 DC = +5 (slowest move that jails or trades is B1)
21 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
B1 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
B12 RC = -1 (nothing trades)
4 RC = +15 (slowest move that jails or trades is F2)
114 RC = -1 (nothing trades, this feels horrendously negativem it was tough to even block Cassie's reversal flip kick)
123 RC = +10 (slowest move that jails or trades is S4)
B3 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
F3 RC = +11 (slowest move that jails or trades is S4, throw wins)

@Eddy Wang
@Slips
@Juggs
@Scoot Magee
@Vagrant
@STRYKIE
@YOMI MITYEAP

The more people that can test these the better, if we're all getting consitent results then in theory we can accurate data.
Click to expand...
I'd take his word for it in the grand scheme of things. B1 FBRC testing last night made me realize I still need to put in a lot of practice for the lesser popular FBRC strings outside of 214 and making sure I'm doing them right down to the very first available frame.

123 FBRC being +10 on that that list of yours caught my eye though... if it lets a standing 1/2 jail then that one may have skyrocketed up my priority list.
 
Eddy Wang

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
JTB123 said:
@HeroesNZ Would you mind posting what you used for testing to determine these numbers?

I've been meaning to test this for a while and just got done going through the strings you listed and this is what I determined. I used Cassie's flip kick reversal as they can be used for frame perfect punishes. Scorpion does lack several intervals of his strings but he does have the following:

D1 = 6 frames
D3 = 7 frames
D2 = 8 frames
S4 = 10 frames
B1/B3 = 11 frames
F3 = 12 frames
F2 = 15 frames
B2 = 17 frames

So he lacks something for 9,13,14,16 frames however you can use what he does have to test most of it and fill in the blanks with educated guests.

214 RC = +18 minimum (slowest move that jails or trades is B2)
214 DC = +5 (slowest move that jails or trades is B1)
21 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
B1 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
B12 RC = -1 (nothing trades)
4 RC = +15 (slowest move that jails or trades is F2)
114 RC = -1 (nothing trades, this feels horrendously negativem it was tough to even block Cassie's reversal flip kick)
123 RC = +10 (slowest move that jails or trades is S4)
B3 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
F3 RC = +11 (slowest move that jails or trades is S4, throw wins)

@Eddy Wang
@Slips
@Juggs
@Scoot Magee
@Vagrant
@STRYKIE
@YOMI MITYEAP

The more people that can test these the better, if we're all getting consitent results then in theory we can accurate data.
Click to expand...
This is pretty accurate.
I was labbing personally some 21RC and got surprised how big the gaps were by trying to use for mixup options.
That explains a lot though. Never run cancel 21 unless you is on hit and you don't want to switch places in the corner to hit them with a fireball which leaves you at +11 on hit.
 
1man3letters

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
Eddy Wang said:
This is pretty accurate.
I was labbing personally some 21RC and got surprised how big the gaps were by trying to use for mixup options.
That explains a lot though. Never run cancel 21 unless you is on hit and you don't want to switch places in the corner to hit them with a fireball which leaves you at +11 on hit.
Click to expand...
i sometimes use 21 fbc 214 when i think opponent is going to try get hit by the 4 in 214 and i dont want to use or have meter for ex spear to see if i can catch them napping
 
Xzyj

Xzyj

Mortal
1man3letters said:
i sometimes use 21 fbc 214 when i think opponent is going to try get hit by the 4 in 214 and i dont want to use or have meter for ex spear to see if i can catch them napping
Click to expand...
Yea i do that a lot vs 4 catchers too, seem to work a lot of time on the right read.

I also want to say that depending on your opponent's character they can't really mash down block + ex reversal due to different input of their armored move, so it's always a good thing to watch your opponent's ducking/standing during the blockstrings. For example if i'll see subzero standing a lot of time - he's probably trying to input EX-slide reversal, so you can catch them up with b3-spear or if you're good enough 2nd blockstring - b3 fbc into 214 full combo, after they start to respect that option you can go for a lot of throws.

Regarding cancel frames - i disagree about 114 being -1, i was able to beat out cassie's flip with d1, and traded with her a couple of times with d3, so it's probably about 0 (+1 on block). Was able to trade with d4, after b1,2 cancel, so it must be around +1 (+2 on block)
Also i was able to trade d4 with Cassie's flip, after cancelling b3, so it must be at least +1 (+2 on block)
And 21 fbc seems to be a lot better that we all first thought. I was able to FULL COMBO in 214 after cancelling 21 on Cassie's reversal flip. So it's at least +4 (+5 on block). Also i traded hits with her, using standing 3(11 frames startup), so it seems pretty accurate.

So, to simplify this, from my testings:
114 fbc = 0
b1,2 fbc = +1
b3 fbc = +1
21 fbc = +4 (!!!)
 
RiBBz22

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
1man3letters said:
i sometimes use 21 fbc 214 when i think opponent is going to try get hit by the 4 in 214 and i dont want to use or have meter for ex spear to see if i can catch them napping
Click to expand...
Then best is when u get a read on them doing that and just do 21 fbc into f4~FA into the combo... You can almost taste the rage.
 
1man3letters

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
didnt know if this should go in mu thread or here but...

vs kitana, scorpion cant do 214~fbc after teleport combo enders. the 1 will whiff leaving scorpion open for a full combo punish if kitana crouch blocked between the 2 and 1. this doesnt happen if scorpion teleports himself into the corner though.

so went about testing the rest of the cast and came up with 2 more oddities,
vs tanya and kano doing f4~teleport enders will cause the same problem as above, 21/12/4~teleport still fine though
 
STRYKIE

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
1man3letters said:
didnt know if this should go in mu thread or here but...

vs kitana, scorpion cant do 214~fbc after teleport combo enders. the 1 will whiff leaving scorpion open for a full combo punish if kitana crouch blocked between the 2 and 1. this doesnt happen if scorpion teleports himself into the corner though.

so went about testing the rest of the cast and came up with 2 more oddities,
vs tanya and kano doing f4~teleport enders will cause the same problem as above, 21/12/4~teleport still fine though
Click to expand...
Yep, this happened to me in tournament against a Kitana player. I still won the set but it was, unnerving.... to say the least...
 
Xzyj

Xzyj

Mortal
STRYKIE said:
Yep, this happened to me in tournament against a Kitana player. I still won the set but it was, unnerving.... to say the least...
Click to expand...
i even wiffed with usual teleport on standing in place Kitana once, her hitbox is very strange
 
STRYKIE

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Xzyj said:
i even wiffed with usual teleport on standing in place Kitana once, her hitbox is very strange
Click to expand...
Strange doesn't even begin to describe it, if you block Assassin Strike from mid range-ish you can't even reach her with a jab lol. I've had to condition myself to use B3 as an emergency punish.
 
1man3letters

1man3letters

Alpha Tarkatan - Moderator
Moderator
STRYKIE said:
Strange doesn't even begin to describe it, if you block Assassin Strike from mid range-ish you can't even reach her with a jab lol. I've had to condition myself to use B3 as an emergency punish.
Click to expand...
yea that and ass are weird on block, there super unsafe but the blockstun is so long before you can press a button after the inital impact of blocking the move. its weird
 
HeroesNZ

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
JTB123 said:
@HeroesNZ Would you mind posting what you used for testing to determine these numbers?

I've been meaning to test this for a while and just got done going through the strings you listed and this is what I determined. I used Cassie's flip kick reversal as they can be used for frame perfect punishes. Scorpion does lack several intervals of his strings but he does have the following:

D1 = 6 frames
D3 = 7 frames
D2 = 8 frames
S4 = 10 frames
B1/B3 = 11 frames
F3 = 12 frames
F2 = 15 frames
B2 = 17 frames

So he lacks something for 9,13,14,16 frames however you can use what he does have to test most of it and fill in the blanks with educated guests.

214 RC = +18 minimum (slowest move that jails or trades is B2)
214 DC = +5 (slowest move that jails or trades is B1)
21 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
B1 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
B12 RC = -1 (nothing trades)
4 RC = +15 (slowest move that jails or trades is F2)
114 RC = -1 (nothing trades, this feels horrendously negativem it was tough to even block Cassie's reversal flip kick)
123 RC = +10 (slowest move that jails or trades is S4)
B3 RC = 0 (slowest move that jails or trades is D1)
F3 RC = +11 (slowest move that jails or trades is S4, throw wins)

@Eddy Wang
@Slips
@Juggs
@Scoot Magee
@Vagrant
@STRYKIE
@YOMI MITYEAP

The more people that can test these the better, if we're all getting consitent results then in theory we can accurate data.
Click to expand...
Haven't had time to re-check everything but I just went to check 21 FBC and it turns out that it's +7 on block and that 21 FBC D3 is a true blockstring.

I also found B1 FBC to be +4 as Standing 4 trades with Cassie's Getaway Flip.

 
STRYKIE

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Farpafraf said:
Wait, are you saying someone was brave enough to play Kitana at a tournament?
Click to expand...
Apparently so. I've faced two Kitanas in two different tournaments actually, and they were both brave enough to use Assassin. (allegedly her worst variation)

 
Last edited:
HeroesNZ

HeroesNZ

Baconlord's Billionaire Sugar Daddy
Exams are finally over (halle-fucking-lujah) so I've been able to test the frame-data again.

3 - +2
B1 - +4
F3 - +8
B3 - +2
123 - +8
B12 - +4
114 - +2
4 - +18
B1 - +27 on hit/+4 on block

Also Standing 1 is neutral on block.
 
Triplswing

Triplswing

your soe will BERRN
HeroesNZ said:
Exams are finally over (halle-fucking-lujah) so I've been able to test the frame-data again.

3 - +2
B1 - +4
F3 - +8
B3 - +2
123 - +8
B12 - +4
114 - +2
4 - +18
B1 - +27 on hit/+4 on block

Also Standing 1 is neutral on block.
Click to expand...
Hold on what are these numbers for? Besides the last one none of them are explained. Are they framedata on block?
 
JDE

JDE

Pick up & kill it & kill it & kill it!
I'm actually having trouble with B3 into fireball run cancel. I can do 214 fireball run cancel. Is there a certain timing to this for a combo?
 
JTB123

JTB123

>>R2 - BF4 = Unblockable.
JDE said:
I'm actually having trouble with B3 into fireball run cancel. I can do 214 fireball run cancel. Is there a certain timing to this for a combo?
Click to expand...
For B3 you really need to make sure you're hitting the down input, sounds weird I know but it's one of those cancels where at first you think you need to be faster than you actually do. You have more time than you might think to do the fireball.
 
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