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Breakthrough - Kano FINALLY, The Kano Community Speaks Up. Save Kano's Relevance With Needed Fixes And Reasonable Buffs

kabelfritz

Master
After watching the utter destruction of competition by Erron Black AGAIN.... Commando needs the command grabs to be on par with EB. Sooooo many tick throw options that DONT need an opponent to block for the grab to land. The variation is grappling, but in all 3 EB variations he can just about land command grabs AT WILL. This with Cutthroat's B1 getting fixed and the addition of any Overhead help for Cybernetic would help the character get out of Goro status.
not downplaying EB, but while he has good tick options, he also lacks stuff kano has, which is a good projectile and parries. if you buff commando you gotta be very careful, another tic string would skyrocket him up a little too high imo. as i said in another thread, more plusframes on parry so you get oki pressure from it would be fine.
 

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
cybernetic is about zoning and whiff punishing and that approach should not be changed.
He's not a lockdown zoner, him being a zoning specialist isn't exactly great. I just ask for something that makes him a little more fearsome up close. A tad less scaling on eye laser(just have his full combos do 1-2% more), and +10 on EX knives. I don't think this is something that's playstyle changing and over the top at all. It just gives him a bit more pressure and chip
 

kabelfritz

Master
He's not a lockdown zoner, him being a zoning specialist isn't exactly great. I just ask for something that makes him a little more fearsome up close. A tad less scaling on eye laser(just have his full combos do 1-2% more), and +10 on EX knives. I don't think this is something that's playstyle changing and over the top at all. It just gives him a bit more pressure and chip
im generally against BS like +10 on block moves.
 

kabelfritz

Master
Yeah, but NRS isn't. They're okay with +14 and +12. I was asking for +10 when +20 was cool anyway
is there anything more of this kind than the lao and shinnok bs in this game? i think its just these 2 and i hope they will go as tremor arrives
 

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
is there anything more of this kind than the lao and shinnok bs in this game? i think its just these 2 and i hope they will go as tremor arrives
mournful Kitana is actually like that last time I looked at it. You'd do the EX Glaive, and if you started that 25f Right as the glaive hit a second time, they still had to block it.

This move also says its -48

EDIT: looks like they changed it. or Reptile's slide is still da bess
 

kabelfritz

Master
mournful Kitana is actually like that last time I looked at it. You'd do the EX Glaive, and if you started that 25f Right as the glaive hit a second time, they still had to block it.

This move also says its -48
omg i wonder why people are not exploiting that yet. that move should have a fine hole in it before the return glaive so ppl can armour through with meter. or be in fact like jades where hole or not hole depends on how long the return way of the glaive is.
 

Apex Kano

Kano Commando main MKX
I main Commando Kano. If he had a overhead, AA grab, and more tick options I'll be happy. Also i have a youtube channel with nothing but Kano love. Look up PrimBloodGhost Online Gaming. Kano Commando grabbing love.
 
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Hello everyone, I have just signed up and this is my first post and the first mortal kombat I've taken seriously. I come from a tekken background and although I am still new to the game, my fighting game knowledge is very good. I don't normally join fgc forums but this thread mixed with my passion for kano tipped me over the edge xD

I also want to thank everyone here, I stalk these forums and I respect everyones opinions and inputs. I am all for a strong community and the kano community seem like a bunch of reasonable gentlemen compared to the cavemen next door in some other forums lol anyway, these are MY thoughts on how to make kano the sturdy and reliable character he deserves to be. Many may disagree but hey, that's the nature of discussions xD

I don't play cutthroat much and so I can't give any real substance on it but I would say the additions he gets are fair. Having a range buff is completely fair and I feel quite essential, even if it's a small amount. But this will concentrate more on Cybernetic and Commando. So, here goes..

I agree with the general tweaks about the kano ball and other fixes, as people are saying, its about giving the move the intention it was supposed to have. One addition I would like to add is a d4 cancelled in his power slam throw doesn't connect at all. I can't see why this shouldn't connect as the rib strike throw does.

Having an overhead:

This is a tricky one, the amount of times I have sat there with the same "if I was playing a character with an overhead, this would have been over ages ago" thought a million times. But giving him an overhead in his other two variations, in the grand scheme of things, is too strong. I say this because he has a great low string, a great pressure string to compliment the low, good zoning and overall good speed normals. Yes you can argue with "make it slow, make it minus a million" but making something unsafe does not mean it's balanced (Erron black is punishable across the board but is still top 5, easily top 10 because of how STRONG his game is) in other words, adding in the aspect of an overhead mixed with his arsenal right now, sorry, I just feel is too much. If you want an overhead, play cutthroat and enjoy the range buff :p and I honestly don't think he needs it. I would take improved pressure over and overhead any day. That's what he was designed for, quick, nimble and agile pressure.

His B31 string:

Firstly, if they are going to change this, they should absolutely maintain the +1 frame data on block. Change the move with that in regard. Making the 1 an overhead will add nothing but needed strength in this string and his game. No gameplay changes, nothing abuseable. He will gain an erron black-esque string which people will have to look out for. However, the overhead will obviously catch people and land alot more and b31 is +16 I think this will have to be lowered to compensate. Kano is a fast character, he doesn't need +16.

Tick throws

This is a dangerous area lol. This is the sort of thing that will break kano if tweaked too much. Kanos commando variation is the type of variation where the better you and your fundamentals are, the better commando is because you need to be completely comfortable at reading the game and utilising his close range throws. Tick throws are nice and d1 and d3 tick throws are a great way of opening someone up, but tick throws aren't the be all end all with this variation and you shouldn't think him having more tick throws are what will make kano good because it will take away the most unique aspect of kano, his ability to make you THINK. Playing kano engages your brain and forces you to plan your moves to play him, this alone gives you one of the most valuable things a character can give a player to make them good and that's good judgement in everything you do. Giving him a bunch of tick throws will only make you play him more brain dead and will just outright break kano. Kanos move list is just too small to give him anymore. A buffered command throw after a standing 2 is almost uninterruptable, pair that with the 4 ender of the string which comes out at a very similar timing as the throw setup and that it's 0 on block and you have a great mixup/mind game here. Giving him tick throws isn't the answer. What happened to the good old run up and throw? :p that works great against turtles.

His B1 pressure

Has his standing jab always been 0 on block? Why am I asking this here? Because after some very budget testing, studying standing one on block, I don't think B1 should be 0 on block. In my experience, B1 is on the cusp of truly being a threat, some people see it, some people don't. That's why I feel this should be made -1 as it's a happy medium to what I am seeing and my experience playing people. I feel -2 is ever so slightly too slow on recovery. Again I'm not sure if 0 is too much, although he doesn't have an overhead in the variations with this string. So maybe it isn't. Either way, I would be happy with -1

Cybernetic

First of all, forget the air laser. I am completely happy accepting this as my brutality move and nothing else. Everyone has useless additions, this is kanos. I would rather him be buffed with something far more worthwhile and essential to his game play. The main thing I feel is reduce the pushback on his B1, 3,1+3. Right now the only thing that reaches open game is B2. The 3 of B2,3 even wiffs. If this was reduced to a range where standing 2 and f4 hits, this would significantly improve this reset. His damage output is absolutely fine in this variation, why buff it? The reset is FAR more important than the 3 or 4% you will gain in your combo.

MB knives

His mb knives being +5 is a bit half hearted. I don't know if this is absurd but is +11 (free f4) too much? Bare in mind kano uses them at all ranges, so in that context +11 is not as amazing as it sounds. It's enough to plant the player in one spot to apply pressure or come in from a heavy zoner. I'm not sure if making them +11 across the board is too much though.

Other than that, cybernetic is super solid. Add the improved B1, B31, hitboxes and general tweaks and he turns from solid to super solid. I've always said and still say the same thing as I'm playing kano: "if I ly he was a little bit better" and that's all he needs, small tweaks.
I just don't want him to be given buffs in the wrong places coughKENJUTSUKENSHIcough

Sorry this is such a long reply, im sure theres things ive missed. I'm passionate about kano

Thank you to anyone who made it this far xD

Thank you for your time
 

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
Hello everyone, I have just signed up and this is my first post and the first mortal kombat I've taken seriously. I come from a tekken background and although I am still new to the game, my fighting game knowledge is very good. I don't normally join fgc forums but this thread mixed with my passion for kano tipped me over the edge xD

I also want to thank everyone here, I stalk these forums and I respect everyones opinions and inputs. I am all for a strong community and the kano community seem like a bunch of reasonable gentlemen compared to the cavemen next door in some other forums lol anyway, these are MY thoughts on how to make kano the sturdy and reliable character he deserves to be. Many may disagree but hey, that's the nature of discussions xD

I don't play cutthroat much and so I can't give any real substance on it but I would say the additions he gets are fair. Having a range buff is completely fair and I feel quite essential, even if it's a small amount. But this will concentrate more on Cybernetic and Commando. So, here goes..

I agree with the general tweaks about the kano ball and other fixes, as people are saying, its about giving the move the intention it was supposed to have. One addition I would like to add is a d4 cancelled in his power slam throw doesn't connect at all. I can't see why this shouldn't connect as the rib strike throw does.

Having an overhead:

This is a tricky one, the amount of times I have sat there with the same "if I was playing a character with an overhead, this would have been over ages ago" thought a million times. But giving him an overhead in his other two variations, in the grand scheme of things, is too strong. I say this because he has a great low string, a great pressure string to compliment the low, good zoning and overall good speed normals. Yes you can argue with "make it slow, make it minus a million" but making something unsafe does not mean it's balanced (Erron black is punishable across the board but is still top 5, easily top 10 because of how STRONG his game is) in other words, adding in the aspect of an overhead mixed with his arsenal right now, sorry, I just feel is too much. If you want an overhead, play cutthroat and enjoy the range buff :p and I honestly don't think he needs it. I would take improved pressure over and overhead any day. That's what he was designed for, quick, nimble and agile pressure.

His B31 string:

Firstly, if they are going to change this, they should absolutely maintain the +1 frame data on block. Change the move with that in regard. Making the 1 an overhead will add nothing but needed strength in this string and his game. No gameplay changes, nothing abuseable. He will gain an erron black-esque string which people will have to look out for. However, the overhead will obviously catch people and land alot more and b31 is +16 I think this will have to be lowered to compensate. Kano is a fast character, he doesn't need +16.

Tick throws

This is a dangerous area lol. This is the sort of thing that will break kano if tweaked too much. Kanos commando variation is the type of variation where the better you and your fundamentals are, the better commando is because you need to be completely comfortable at reading the game and utilising his close range throws. Tick throws are nice and d1 and d3 tick throws are a great way of opening someone up, but tick throws aren't the be all end all with this variation and you shouldn't think him having more tick throws are what will make kano good because it will take away the most unique aspect of kano, his ability to make you THINK. Playing kano engages your brain and forces you to plan your moves to play him, this alone gives you one of the most valuable things a character can give a player to make them good and that's good judgement in everything you do. Giving him a bunch of tick throws will only make you play him more brain dead and will just outright break kano. Kanos move list is just too small to give him anymore. A buffered command throw after a standing 2 is almost uninterruptable, pair that with the 4 ender of the string which comes out at a very similar timing as the throw setup and that it's 0 on block and you have a great mixup/mind game here. Giving him tick throws isn't the answer. What happened to the good old run up and throw? :p that works great against turtles.

His B1 pressure

Has his standing jab always been 0 on block? Why am I asking this here? Because after some very budget testing, studying standing one on block, I don't think B1 should be 0 on block. In my experience, B1 is on the cusp of truly being a threat, some people see it, some people don't. That's why I feel this should be made -1 as it's a happy medium to what I am seeing and my experience playing people. I feel -2 is ever so slightly too slow on recovery. Again I'm not sure if 0 is too much, although he doesn't have an overhead in the variations with this string. So maybe it isn't. Either way, I would be happy with -1

Cybernetic

First of all, forget the air laser. I am completely happy accepting this as my brutality move and nothing else. Everyone has useless additions, this is kanos. I would rather him be buffed with something far more worthwhile and essential to his game play. The main thing I feel is reduce the pushback on his B1, 3,1+3. Right now the only thing that reaches open game is B2. The 3 of B2,3 even wiffs. If this was reduced to a range where standing 2 and f4 hits, this would significantly improve this reset. His damage output is absolutely fine in this variation, why buff it? The reset is FAR more important than the 3 or 4% you will gain in your combo.

MB knives

His mb knives being +5 is a bit half hearted. I don't know if this is absurd but is +11 (free f4) too much? Bare in mind kano uses them at all ranges, so in that context +11 is not as amazing as it sounds. It's enough to plant the player in one spot to apply pressure or come in from a heavy zoner. I'm not sure if making them +11 across the board is too much though.

Other than that, cybernetic is super solid. Add the improved B1, B31, hitboxes and general tweaks and he turns from solid to super solid. I've always said and still say the same thing as I'm playing kano: "if I ly he was a little bit better" and that's all he needs, small tweaks.
I just don't want him to be given buffs in the wrong places coughKENJUTSUKENSHIcough

Sorry this is such a long reply, im sure theres things ive missed. I'm passionate about kano

Thank you to anyone who made it this far xD

Thank you for your time
I largely agree, except I believe that B31 should scale less. Right now doing B31 xx DB1 and then a corner combo leads to 1% more damage. I originally attributed this to laser, but I think B31 should get it, as it won't really affect midscreen too much. The tricky part of this of course, is that B31 is a universal string, and the overall damage to his primary corner game might skyrocket. And I feel that NRS could put a fresh string on Commando. Tie it to F1, as it's the only punch slot that hasn't been used (B1, B2, F2). Wishful thinking has it as a 4 hit string. Dreaming has it leading to a popup. I also say more tick setups, primarily because F33 is such a terrible string. It's slow, has no range, and I'm fairly certain F3 has [EDIT: it does not] the same pitfalls that 112, 2, and choke have(being that they frequently whiff on crouch blockers). I also limit Ex Knife plus frames to 10 on Cybernetic. enough for B1(Which would be the most optimal setup anyway, as B13 would be the safest, and lead to the most chip), but not enough to be absurd
 
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I largely agree, except I believe that B31 should scale less. Right now doing B31 xx DB1 and then a corner combo leads to 1% more damage. I originally attributed this to laser, but I think B31 should get it, as it won't really affect midscreen too much. The tricky part of this of course, is that B31 is a universal string, and the overall damage to his primary corner game might skyrocket. And I feel that NRS could put a fresh string on Commando. Tie it to F1, as it's the only punch slot that hasn't been used (B1, B2, F2). Wishful thinking has it as a 4 hit string. Dreaming has it leading to a popup. I also say more tick setups, primarily because F33 is such a terrible string. It's slow, has no range, and I'm fairly certain F3 has [EDIT: it does not] the same pitfalls that 112, 2, and choke have(being that they frequently whiff on crouch blockers). I also limit Ex Knife plus frames to 10 on Cybernetic. enough for B1(Which would be the most optimal setup anyway, as B13 would be the safest, and lead to the most chip), but not enough to be absurd

F33 is definitely a pretty useless string even with the available tick throw avaliable. It also has less range than his standing jab. The f4 into a knife throw also is not good in the high knife variations, they fly straight over their heads with you left recovering right in front of them. He could do with another string but it's difficult to think of a legitimate string useful enough to use alongside a string like B1. People don't seem to see the power off a buffered command throw over a canceled or tick throw. B1 into a buffered command throw is very strong. I only used +11 as a benchmark for discussion, 10 is absolutely fine with me, as you said, B1 is the go to for conditioning should they attack anyway. If he is to have another string, it should cover what he lacks most and I can't think what kano is really lacking. The only thing that remotely comes to mind is a mixture of a kotal kahn b14 tick throw (sun god) mixed with a kenshi 4412, a string with an overhead or low in it, with advantage through the string and an overhead/low in it. Of course I'm talking about the properties, not the animations of these strings xD I'll definitely give it some thought and probably hit practice and see if anything jups out at me
 

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
F33 is definitely a pretty useless string even with the available tick throw avaliable. It also has less range than his standing jab. The f4 into a knife throw also is not good in the high knife variations, they fly straight over their heads with you left recovering right in front of them. He could do with another string but it's difficult to think of a legitimate string useful enough to use alongside a string like B1. People don't seem to see the power off a buffered command throw over a canceled or tick throw. B1 into a buffered command throw is very strong. I only used +11 as a benchmark for discussion, 10 is absolutely fine with me, as you said, B1 is the go to for conditioning should they attack anyway. If he is to have another string, it should cover what he lacks most and I can't think what kano is really lacking. The only thing that remotely comes to mind is a mixture of a kotal kahn b14 tick throw (sun god) mixed with a kenshi 4412, a string with an overhead or low in it, with advantage through the string and an overhead/low in it. Of course I'm talking about the properties, not the animations of these strings xD I'll definitely give it some thought and probably hit practice and see if anything jups out at me
I will note ahead of tims that this string is probably too good to be in his repertoire. But I've been thinking on a 4 hit string with the 4th hit being a HKD, but the third hit being special cancelable and as a tick setup. I feel like this is better than just making B1 or F4 into a tick setup. But there needs to be a downside to this as well. Maybe make the 4th hit unsafe? You can't do that, because then the 4th hit doesn't come out. You just give yourself a 3 hit string that cancels either into Choke or Grab, which is scary in of itself. You can maybe make the third hit low so a choke would whiff? But again, they're going to try to avoid a command grab by neutral jumping or back dashing, and then choke wins out anyway.

Now that I think about it, the mixup between choke and grab is exactly what he has now, so it's not as bad as I thought it was.

Oh, and on F3, I had no idea it was cancelable into grenade and grab on Cyber. even more useless because it has a gap
 
I will note ahead of tims that this string is probably too good to be in his repertoire. But I've been thinking on a 4 hit string with the 4th hit being a HKD, but the third hit being special cancelable and as a tick setup. I feel like this is better than just making B1 or F4 into a tick setup. But there needs to be a downside to this as well. Maybe make the 4th hit unsafe? You can't do that, because then the 4th hit doesn't come out. You just give yourself a 3 hit string that cancels either into Choke or Grab, which is scary in of itself. You can maybe make the third hit low so a choke would whiff? But again, they're going to try to avoid a command grab by neutral jumping or back dashing, and then choke wins out anyway.

Now that I think about it, the mixup between choke and grab is exactly what he has now, so it's not as bad as I thought it was.

Oh, and on F3, I had no idea it was cancelable into grenade and grab on Cyber. even more useless because it has a gap

Yes exactly, I can't truly convince myself he needs a new string, just improve his B1 string and improve his jump in overheads and uppercut. His choke is now safe and so he gets the same mix up people are using in cybernetic but without risk of being punished from the thrown out laser like in cybernetic (although the reward is far greater). It's now a safe three hit pressure/mixup string. That in itself really improved commando because it gives him a bit of auto pilot that he can do with. It's also not a bad idea to set up an armor kano ball, people will get hit by that.
 

thlityoursloat

kick kick
Cyber's B2 should be universal. Gosh, the range on it so good, I can't stand using CT or Commando because of its absence. I know this is silly but one can dream lol.
 
Cyber's B2 should be universal. Gosh, the range on it so good, I can't stand using CT or Commando because of its absence. I know this is silly but one can dream lol.

Lol B2 is a great move, I don't really use it that much open game but the few times I do it tends to be at the tip of its range and it works a treat. I have found people get conditioned fast to the first hit in terms of attacking afterwards because of the slow lunging nature of this move. Such a good punisher/whiff punisher also
 

Vigilante24

Beware my power, Red Lantern's Light
So ive been becoming more interested in Kano the more I play him and im really starting to like this character. I like him even more than Kung Lao honestly, not gonna drop him tho cuz if I switch mains, he will be my pocket top tier. :p

As of right now, I only play Cybernetic simply due to me liking his playstyle, mid knives, corner standing resets, and his godlike B23 String. If Commando gains an additional tick throw string that is actually useful (lol F33), I would be happy with him and actually attempt to learn this variation. Im not saying he needs to gain 20 of them like Erron Black, but its annoying to focus tick throws on just pokes.

If B23 was universal, bruh!!!!! :cool:
 

Prinz

watch?v=a8PEVV6tt14
Damn. Ultradavid said Commando Kano is probably the best of Kano's variations. All hopes for buff lost.
 

FlappyDaniel

Snappin' spines all day e'ry day.
To which most people think "oh man, I heard his knives were OP, and there's something BETTER then that in commando? wowy kazowy!"
 

Gobei Go

Noob
So...

I've quietly watched the forums talking about Kano since this games release. I have been a commando Kano main since day one and have been churning out tech, set ups and working on my execution with the character.

The character in a nutshell is very good but undeniably has some issue with bugs and glitches. Nothing frustrates me more than reading correctly that a Kang player will wake up bf2 at the end of a round out of desperation, and then have kano hit the parry, any combination of high low or ex, with plenty of time only to get ignored. (I can parry tele-kicks and other kanoballs, why not this move?) The parries functionality is very inconsistent and should make a little more sense. Some high moves must be parried low and some low moves you have to parry high. This is common knowledge but from what I have seen in this forum, the chances of a character being meaningfully changed are unlikely unless the players who care bring it up.

So to the point of this thread...
I am a Kano player. I am not someone who picks him when I want to "not play as seriously". Part of the reason I play him is to show off how competitive this variation can be in Tournaments (SoCal standup!). While I was at the ESL finals in Burbank I had the pleasure to meet up with @Pig Of The Hut (Go Pig or Go Home!) and briefly explained to him as well as @tylerlansdown that Kano is amazing but unfortunately needs some hitbox and mechanic fixes. I mention these two dudes in this thread because they are guys who love this game and understand either what it is like to be a fan of Kano or to be a character loyalist who sees the true potential of their character being held back.

I'm not asking for him to be buffed to the moon and back. I just strongly suggest that QA at Netherrealm take another look at Kano and use the great video provided in this thread as a template to know where to start looking.

Kano players are quiet but trust me, we are out there.